Universal care

[birdlike 0]

Dude, what an awesome post.

*applause*


Totally freakin' awesome.

Spirits fly on dangerous missions
Imaginations on fire

[christelsabine 1]

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If you're talking about acute care, no one beats the US.
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Acute care like this?

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2008/07/02/national/main4227468.shtml?source=RSSattr=U.S._4227468

dudeist skydiver # 3105

[Remster 30]

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You want the people that run amtrack to run health care. no thanks. Are YOU going to tell the doctor he must take a 30% paycut and be happy. Look at Canada takes what months to get a MRI. I can get one in hours or less in the USA. NO THANKS

Stop spreading the lies you've heard.

My wife and I both were able to get MRI the very same day we went to the ER.

Remster

[birdlike 0]

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You want the people that run amtrack to run health care. no thanks. Are YOU going to tell the doctor he must take a 30% paycut and be happy. Look at Canada takes what months to get a MRI. I can get one in hours or less in the USA. NO THANKS

Stop spreading the lies you've heard.

My wife and I both were able to get MRI the very same day we went to the ER.

...in Buffalo.

Spirits fly on dangerous missions
Imaginations on fire

[Remster 30]

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You want the people that run amtrack to run health care. no thanks. Are YOU going to tell the doctor he must take a 30% paycut and be happy. Look at Canada takes what months to get a MRI. I can get one in hours or less in the USA. NO THANKS

Stop spreading the lies you've heard.

My wife and I both were able to get MRI the very same day we went to the ER.

...in Buffalo.

At Montreal General. Probably one of the busiest hospital in the country.

Remster

[birdlike 0]

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Stop spreading the lies you've heard.

My wife and I both were able to get MRI the very same day we went to the ER.

...in Buffalo.

At Montreal General. Probably one of the busiest hospital in the country.

So, Canada's down to only one hospital, eh?

Spirits fly on dangerous missions
Imaginations on fire

[Rookie120 0]

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Acute care like this?

I thought I read that the hospitol you are pointing to is a state run place. I could be wrong. I thought I read that in the newspaper here in New York.

If you find yourself in a fair fight, your tactics suck!

[billvon 3,120]

>My wife and I both were able to get MRI the very same day we went to the ER.

Now, why would you go and inject firsthand experience into a perfectly good rant?

[Lucky... 0]

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The WHO claims the world needs uni-care, when will the US figure it out?

When will you figure out that SAYING universal care would be good and is what we should have is hugely apart from coming up with a way to provide it to everyone?!

Do you honestly think that there is anyone around who is opposed to having as many people as possible have health coverage?

The debate is over how to provide it, and how to pay for it. That's it. Don't pretend that taxing people to death is a viable way to do it.

If we wanted, in the U.S., health care coverage like they have in European nations, we'd have to have an income tax rate over 50% like they do. Do you want that? I don't.

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"Virtually all advanced countries have universal health care systems but we don't think that should be limited to high-income countries," he added.

Expensive things tend to be limited to "high income" anythings. These countries you mention, how many of them have zero- or negative-growth economies? Quite a few. How many of them have taxation at a level that Americans would tolerate. Like, none.

Oh, and I guess you don't entertain the arguments that the quality of care in countries with socialized medicine SUCKS...

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Except the US..... yea, we're right, the rest of the world is wrong.

Well, the rest of the world is socialist. We don't want to be that. Sorry. Go move there if it's so much better. Mexicans move here because it's better than where they came from, after all.

Gee, I have an idea, take the 660 billion we spend on the military per year, not including Iraq funds, and cut it in half, use that for uni care..... real easy.


>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>If we wanted, in the U.S., health care coverage like they have in European nations, we'd have to have an income tax rate over 50% like they do. Do you want that? I don't.


Canada's is not that high. For 40-50k yr earners, it's about the same as here.


>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Expensive things tend to be limited to "high income" anythings. These countries you mention, how many of them have zero- or negative-growth economies? Quite a few. How many of them have taxation at a level that Americans would tolerate. Like, none.


Wrong, provide evidence of that for Europe. As for growth, we are now neg growth, right? If you remove an employers contribution to HMO's, that frees up a lot of $$$. As well, all of their currencies have been killing us during your president's term.


>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Well, the rest of the world is socialist. We don't want to be that. Sorry. Go move there if it's so much better. Mexicans move here because it's better than where they came from, after all.


3rd world country as compared to industrialized; nice comparison. I would love to move, or I can stay and make a change.

[Lucky... 0]

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How do you suppose we handle issues like this?

Huge discrepancies also exist within countries, including Scotland where a boy born in the poor Glasgow suburb of Calton can expect to live to 54, 28 years less than one born in affluent Lenzie, just across town, it said.

I assume you want equal healthcare for all. Are you going to make more experienced doctors move to poorer neighborhoods?

Part and parcel of that is the notion that no matter how much money you have, how hard you've worked to become wealthy, there are places (Canada is one) that makes it ILLEGAL to pay for health care out of your own pocket in order to get the best care.

I guess that's why wealthy Canadians come here[/] to get top-level treatment. Let's all pretend we don't know that that goes on. Let's all be liberals who just want to repeat a zombie mantra of "Universal caaaare."

Or be a neo-con and pretend people who don't have care don't want it.

[Lucky... 0]

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An entire college education can cost less than sending an adult to prison for six months.

Uh, which college and what gold plated prison are you talking about?

I believe the prison costs are in the ballpark of 40k/year. (Florida was first hit, claims 19k) No one is getting a 4 year degree on 20k, not unless you ignore non tuition costs like food, shelter, etc.

Mine was less than 20k for tuition and I went to a major state university after trasferring 60 credits from CC. Of course sincee your guy has done 8 years of wealth trasfer, tuition has litterally doubled.

[Lucky... 0]

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You want the people that run amtrack to run health care. no thanks. Are YOU going to tell the doctor he must take a 30% paycut and be happy. Look at Canada takes what months to get a MRI. I can get one in hours or less in the USA. NO THANKS

Right, fewer people get quicker care, no argument. It's about exclusion.

[Lucky... 0]

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You want the people that run amtrack to run health care. no thanks. Are YOU going to tell the doctor he must take a 30% paycut and be happy. Look at Canada takes what months to get a MRI. I can get one in hours or less in the USA. NO THANKS

The biggest IRONY I can think of about "universal (government-run) health care" is that as much as the left, which champions it, HATES the way the government is run and doesn't trust it with anything, not even investigating terrorist threats to our very lives... this faction of the political spectrum CHEERS the idea of the government running a system entrusted with the maintenance of our very lives.

We hold that our medical information is of the utmost private nature. Then we see government computers getting LOST with all kinds of sensitive information -- who can trust them not to fuck up in a MONUMENTAL WAY with the most sensitive data on citizens imaginable? All because a stumblefuck government is put in charge when it hasn't been proved to be able to manage a motherfucking thing right in all these many years.

I would ask the cheerleaders of government-run health care, Why do you suddenly trust government on THIS?

Here's an even better question:
If the next president and Congress are Republican, BUT they bring us a viable universal government-run health care plan and implement it, will you be so trusting? Or is it only Democrats who could ever do it right?

So now you offer some hypothetical tangent about the gov losing records. PEOPLE ARE DYING AND LIVING WITH CRONIC DISEASES, do you think they give a fuck about privacy in records? This article is just another of the many human abuses this gov projects: the gov spends 8 times the #2 spender for the military, who is Britain, and yet denies basic medical care.... now let's hear how horrible China is, a country in their horrible ways, still provides HC.

[Lucky... 0]

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(no one except American conservatives calls it socialized)

We call it "socialized" due to what has to happen for healthcare to become "Universal". We would have to nationalize a considerable amount of property, pay scales, some intellectual rights, pharmaceuticals will be R&D'ed like Govt contractors if they aren't nationalized. ect ect. . .

Socializing means giving government control of a major piece of the economy.

However, if the govt keeps everything private and just provide money, then it will at best be only twice the cost of the IRA to operate. That's not including the cost of contractor-style mesh of govt and private companies cooperating.

Personally, I would rather have other people work harder to pay their own insurance than I have to pay exta to provide them theirs.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>Socializing means giving government control of a major piece of the economy.


As opposed to directing corporations to decide if Johnny gets the operation.....hmmm, that is tough.


>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Personally, I would rather have other people work harder to pay their own insurance than I have to pay exta to provide them theirs.


We've been on the credit card for 140+ years anyway, so it's not as if you pay for guy X. Furthemore, I litterally have never once heard the anti-uni care guys whine about military expeditures.

[Lucky... 0]

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I still don't get why people think financing of health care should be provided by the government It is not the most universal of needs. I'd put food above health care as a basic need. Why aren't the communists amongst us calling for universal food? Aquisition of all food should be financed and administrated by the government. If you want to be mothered, why not take it all the way?

What is it about health care that makes people think it should be provided for long term by the government? As a temporary safety net such as unemployment, fine. But other than that, people need to get off their but and fend a bit for themselves. With no incentives to do that we are headed toward a full-blown welfare state.

Nice, let's be abstract. Hey, why don't we have governemnt agents follow us around and ensure we have kleenex when we need them. I realize you'll avoid this like the plague, but how is it the govs right to allocate my tax dollars for a war that was started on a lie or to spend 8 times the next top spender for military operations?


BTW, unemployment is paid for by employers, not the gov unless the employer defaults.

[Lucky... 0]

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I still don't get why people think financing of health care should be provided by the government It is not the most universal of needs. I'd put food above health care as a basic need. Why aren't the communists amongst us calling for universal food? Aquisition of all food should be financed and administrated by the government. If you want to be mothered, why not take it all the way?

What is it about health care that makes people think it should be provided for long term by the government? As a temporary safety net such as unemployment, fine. But other than that, people need to get off their but and fend a bit for themselves. With no incentives to do that we are headed toward a full-blown welfare state.

These points are excellent.

I hope you are not seriously expecting honest-to-goodness rebuttals to them. Liberals do not debate from a point of strength when you bring up rational questions and challenges to the illogic of their positions.

This garbage and you won't address why the gov can allocate 8 times the #2 spender in the military and numerous tax breaks when we have far and away the richest people in the world here......

[Lucky... 0]

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Well, I think that your statement is kind of tautological.

It's like saying, "Should we expect that in any utopian state, all of the people's needs will be met?" and of course, the answer is "yes."

No it's not an utopia, it's the way of almost all of the industrialized world.

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That is a fallacious argument, which fails to take into account that many things can be made more effective or efficient at a far greater cost than society would want to bear.

Look at how we could cut down on crime if we put the National Guard on every street corner with belt-fed .50 cals and ordered all citizens to remain in their homes except to go to and from jobs, and to never come together in groups larger than two.

Effective at combating crime? You betcha. Recommendable? I dare say, um, NO.

Now you are just trying to misunderstand me. I'm just trying to say that the way a state provide health care for all should be done in whatever way fits that state/culture best. This question don't have the same moral implication.

/Martin

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>No it's not an utopia, it's the way of almost all of the industrialized world.


Right, neo-cons seem to think that the US are breaking new ground with their ideologies, when, in fact, we are so antiquated it's pathetic.


>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Now you are just trying to misunderstand me. I'm just trying to say that the way a state provide health care for all should be done in whatever way fits that state/culture best. This question don't have the same moral implication.


Yea, he'll get abstract on ya, then he'll check for typos.

[Lucky... 0]

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No it's not an utopia, it's the way of almost all of the industrialized world.

If it's so great, why do Canadians come to the U.S.?
Why are British teeth so fugly?

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That is a fallacious argument, which fails to take into account that many things can be made more effective or efficient at a far greater cost than society would want to bear.

Look at how we could cut down on crime if we put the National Guard on every street corner with belt-fed .50 cals and ordered all citizens to remain in their homes except to go to and from jobs, and to never come together in groups larger than two.

Effective at combating crime? You betcha. Recommendable? I dare say, um, NO.

Now you are just trying to misunderstand me. I'm just trying to say that the way a state provide health care for all should be done in whatever way fits that state/culture best. This question don't have the same moral implication.

/Martin

No, I don't do that. I may get argumentative; sometimes you may not see the way I am opting to illustrate my point. But one thing I do not do is just nay-say to be a dick, or a thorn in people's sides. Believe it or not, my aim here is to discuss things, and like in the scientific method, peel away the bullshit so we can get to true understanding. Sometimes I make sport of it, but I never act in deliberate bad faith or deliberately "misunderstand" someone to bolster what I have been shown is a fallacy in my own argument. I would sooner concede, "I was wrong; you were right" (and have) than just be a bullshitter for the hell of it.

In this case, I was using that example because I took you to mean that whatever is necessary to deliver this vaunted "universal care" is what should be done. If that was not your meaning, fine.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>If it's so great, why do Canadians come to the U.S.?


For faster care and that came from a Canadian citizen. Now, urgent care is the same as here, long-term care is delayed.


>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Why are British teeth so fugly?


If they're like Candian care, it's because their uni care doesn't provide for dental coverage.


>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>...but I never act in deliberate bad faith or deliberately "misunderstand" someone to bolster what I have been shown is a fallacy in my own argument.


You just avoid some issues like, what is the negligible number of innocent people we can execute in order to have a system that executes the guilty. You employ avoidance.

[Lucky... 0]

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If it's so great, why do Canadians come to the U.S.? Why are British teeth so fugly?

cheap dollars and bad genes ... but I smell clichés here.

I'm guessing their uni care doesn't provide for dental.

[Lucky... 0]

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The US "needs" universal care? You know, my 4 year old son also says he "needs" things. Like, "I NEED a cookie." No, Conor. You "want" a cookie.

15 percent of Americans have no health insurance. How many skydivers have no health insurance? You know, the folks who can afford to drop a grand a month on jumps and equipment, but cannot afford health insurance? They are among this group who face debilitating costs from that tib/fib, thus proving the need for commie care.

By the way, the rest of the world is not "right," nor is the rest of the world "wrong." The rest of the world can do what it wants. The want to do socialized health care? Let em. They want to pass a 35 hour work week? By all means, be my guest! They want to arrange health care professional vacations for August? Sweet!

Here in the good ole U.S. of A., we will allow people to work 80 hours per week, if they wish.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>15 percent of Americans have no health insurance. How many skydivers have no health insurance? You know, the folks who can afford to drop a grand a month on jumps and equipment, but cannot afford health insurance? They are among this group who face debilitating costs from that tib/fib, thus proving the need for commie care.


And all the while..... we still spend 8 times the #2 in military, yet no complaint from you, ever. BTW, it's been months since I have jumped, need to get back.


>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>By the way, the rest of the world is not "right," nor is the rest of the world "wrong."


Right, there are norms and spending 8 X the#2 is weird, not having medical care provided is weird. The US is fucked up, not wrong.


>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Here in the good ole U.S. of A., we will allow people to work 80 hours per week, if they wish.

I guess people just keep wishing to do that, amazing how lucky these people are to have the opportunity to work that much.

BTW, western European countries have laws that require 30 days per month vacation, some up to 9 weeks. God we're just lucky to live in a country where the government doesn't interfere.

[Lucky... 0]

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Dude, what an awesome post.

*applause*


Totally freakin' awesome.

And they say Republicans are lock-stepped..... I won't hear of it

[Lucky... 0]

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....
If you're talking about acute care, no one beats the US.
....

Acute care like this?

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2008/07/02/national/main4227468.shtml?source=RSSattr=U.S._4227468

Come on, she was black, that was teh excuse, right? Here in the US we're not all = people, class, race, age all play a part.

[Lucky... 0]

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You want the people that run amtrack to run health care. no thanks. Are YOU going to tell the doctor he must take a 30% paycut and be happy. Look at Canada takes what months to get a MRI. I can get one in hours or less in the USA. NO THANKS

Stop spreading the lies you've heard.

My wife and I both were able to get MRI the very same day we went to the ER.

...in Buffalo.

At Montreal General. Probably one of the busiest hospital in the country.

Here in the US the hospitals aren't as busy because....... NOT EVERYONE GETS TO GO!!!!!!!!

[nerdgirl 0]

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The US "needs" universal care? You know, my 4 year old son also says he "needs" things. Like, "I NEED a cookie." No, Conor. You "want" a cookie.

One of the problems with this analogy is that if you asked your son if he needed to go to the doctor or the dentist or brush his teeth or do his homework or any other number of things that as a parent one might think a child needs to do, he is likely to disagree. The analogy breaks down too easily. It's also not a good analogy for arguing for universal healthcare.

VR/Marg

Act as if everything you do matters, while laughing at yourself for thinking anything you do matters.
Tibetan Buddhist saying

[lawrocket 3]

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Gee, I have an idea, take the 660 billion we spend on the military per year, not including Iraq funds, and cut it in half, use that for uni care..... real easy.

660 billion per year? The DoD budget is $481.4 billion. The War on Terror is $145.2 billion. Total it doesn't equal $660 billion.

But, Social Security is $608 billion (and in serious trouble, as we all know)
Medicare is $386 billion (and in serious trouble, as we all know)
Medicaid is $209 billion, and in trouble.

That's $1.203 trillion right there in socialism, and for some reason, $1.203 trillion per year just ain't enough, is it?

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>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Expensive things tend to be limited to "high income" anythings. These countries you mention, how many of them have zero- or negative-growth economies? Quite a few. How many of them have taxation at a level that Americans would tolerate. Like, none.


Wrong, provide evidence of that for Europe.

Evidence? Sarkozy. Even the majority of French are sick of the gravy train.

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As for growth, we are now neg growth, right?

We don't know that. But historically, take a look at France - unemployment arond 8% is considered great. The last quarter in 2007 was 7.7 percent - a 24 year low. Our unemployment rate in last quarter 2007 - an awful 4.8%.

Remember - it's the companies in France that are taxed most heavily. Unemployment has been a huge issue - especially unemployment of the young and unskilled. Not even McJobs are available there.

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If you remove an employers contribution to HMO's, that frees up a lot of $$$.

Yep. Much like transferring a patient from a hospital clears up space. No, it does not. The money is just moved elsewhere.

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As well, all of their currencies have been killing us during your president's term.

Killing us? Rather, keeping our exports thriving. Everything has costs and benefits. Our currency declines? That makes our goods cheaper abroad, and makes our goods cheaper than foreign goods in the US.

It's like asking which is better for the environment - the paper bag or the plastic bag. Paper has certain benefits - it is biodegradeable. But that's a cost - the biodegrading causes leachates. If anaerobic produces methane. If aerobic it produces CO2. Meanwhile, plastic just sits there contained and does no further damage in a landfill than take up space.

Plastic bags are manufactured with petroleum - which is expensive and getting scarcer. But - paper bags require vastly larger amounts of energy to produce than paper, and require much more water to produce (in places like my town of Fresno, water is hugely important). Thus, paper bags produce more pollution in manufacture.

Once people start realizing that a strong dollar has drawback and benefits just like a weak dollar, the big picture will be more evident.

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I would love to move, or I can stay and make a change.

Do whatever you want. But what's best for you isn't best for me.

If you live in the Pacific northwest, where water and trees and pretty plentiful, but good waste storage space is not, paper bags would make a whole lotta sense. If you live the Arizona desert, where water is not plentiful, but there's a whole lot of desert to store waste, then plastic bags may make more sense.

My wife is hotter than your wife.