shropshire 0 #26 August 19, 2008 Quote Maybe we should just ban alcohol on a national level. Yeah, that's the ticket-stricter laws makes for easier enforcement How'd that work for you last time around (.)Y(.) Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Nightingale 0 #27 August 19, 2008 Good idea. If they're old enough to be drafted, they're old enough to buy a beer. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
shropshire 0 #28 August 19, 2008 So, raise the Draft age. (.)Y(.) Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #29 August 19, 2008 QuoteIs the real issue drinking, or drunk driving? I think our legislators have confused the two. Nope. Our society has a problem with drinking. Those over 21 are only slightly better, and they set a terrible example for the emotionally immature. The DUIs are a greater problem because there is more collateral damage. If the question is about rights, the drinking age should be 18 again. But there's little doubt in my mind that there will be more problems (deaths, illness, lower productivity) in doing so. Since I believe rights trumpet society, I have to support the change, but I'm not going to kid myself about the results. Unlike permission gun laws, permissive alcohol rules get abused. I don't think Europeans are that much better about handling alcohol, but their tolerance for bad results (particularly DUI) is far lower, so they are less cavalier about it) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
shropshire 0 #30 August 19, 2008 It depends where abouts you are in Europe. The U.K has a massive drink problem, the rest of Europe, not so much. (.)Y(.) Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #31 August 19, 2008 Germans? Seems like the problem follows the countries that make decent beer. The wine producers - well if you're chugging wine, you're missing the point. Might as well be buying boxes of Gallo. Slow sipping takes a lot more time to get very drunk. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gawain 0 #32 August 19, 2008 Quotewww.newsday.com/news/printedition/longisland/ny-lidrin195806802aug19,0,4346240.story Good idea, or not? If you're old enough to vote, old enough to serve the country, then you're old enough to take a drink.So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright 'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life Make light! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
downwardspiral 0 #33 August 19, 2008 QuoteGood idea. If they're old enough to be drafted, they're old enough to buy a beer. Yet you can't even buy a playboy on an American base. At least that's the way it was when I was in.www.FourWheelerHB.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lawrocket 3 #34 August 19, 2008 The problem is more with "binge drinking" than anything. Let's look at why they want the law changed. Problem - kids drinking. It won't be stopped by lowering the drinking age, will it? If anything, it will make it MORE accessible. Thus, "drinking" is not the issue. Problem - kids get a hold of some alcohol when they are underaged. The lack of availability - and consequences of being a minor in possession - result in them downing all of it. Okay. This law may act to help prevent that to some extent. Problem - kids driving drunk to go someplace to get alcohol from a source. Solution? No need to drive to the corner store. Or, they act like adults and stock up on all that would be needed. Problem - underaged kids getting supplied by others. This leads to intoxication and more problems. This law can help solve that problem by eliminating the taboo of it. I think this proposed solution is worth a shot. I can definitely see the benefits behind it. My wife is hotter than your wife. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Shotgun 1 #35 August 20, 2008 QuoteFrom an ethical point of view, there's a good argument to be made that if you are able to sign a piece of paper that allows you to go and die for your country, and vote for the next senator/representative/president, you should be able to have a beer. Yep, that's how I feel about it. I doubt that the legal drinking age has much to do with who will go on to abuse alcohol or drive drunk, but it only makes sense that if someone is considered an adult in one way (allowed to vote, allowed to join the military, allowed to consent to sex, allowed to serve alcohol, etc.), then they should be considered an adult in every way. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TheAnvil 0 #36 August 20, 2008 Very true. I think it should be lowered to 18...have no issue with it, actually. Vinny the Anvil Post Traumatic Didn't Make The Lakers Syndrome is REAL JACKASS POWER!!!!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
warpedskydiver 0 #37 August 20, 2008 Quote Quote Good idea. If they're old enough to be drafted, they're old enough to buy a beer. Yet you can't even buy a playboy on an American base. At least that's the way it was when I was in. We used to have swank and hustler centerfolds covering all the walls, and our ceiling in our section room. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Lindsey 0 #38 August 20, 2008 In 1985 the dean of students decided that if most of the school wasn't legal to drink, she had to do something about it. So she cracked down, sent the campus police to parties, made sure we were checking ID's etc. Some results - people drank heavily before they came to a party in case they couldn't get alcohol there, people tended to hide their drinking and far more fights broke out around the parties. Ha. My college did the opposite....of course it was a very small (1000 students) Methodist liberal arts college in a dry county. They turned their heads to any drinking on campus, because at least we weren't out driving. We all walked to parties, because those of us who didn't live on campus lived within a couple blocks of campus. Everything went great until Goat Roast that one year...lol. :) linz-- A conservative is just a liberal who's been mugged. A liberal is just a conservative who's been to jail Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #39 August 20, 2008 QuoteQuote1 - this has ZERO to do with right or wrong, rights or lack of rights. It only has to do with college administrators not wanting to deal with the issue of illegal underage drinking on their campuses. I'm ok with that motivation - unless they pretend to hide it under some kind of illusion of social something or the other. 2 - Good Idea? Meh - hard to tell much difference - the typical 18 year old and the typical 21 year old are pretty much equal on the whole 'dumbass' scale -and neither knows that until they live another decade or so. The only fallout I see, that I have issue with, is the younger the legal age, the younger the underage person can be that can get someone to buy for them. So if this were to happen, we should DRAMATICALLY increase the penalties for 'buying for minors'. Is the real issue drinking, or drunk driving? I think our legislators have confused the two. Drinking - if it's proposed by college admins, then it's mostly drinking of any kind and DUI is just a portion (a small portion if I recall college correctly). ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
futuredivot 0 #40 August 20, 2008 Quote How'd that work for you last time around My pointI'm still pissed that South Carolina jumped the age one year at a time with no grandfathering. From 18-21 I was legal from August 28 until the limit went up September 1. I don't recall that my drinking slowed just because I was under legal ageYou are only as strong as the prey you devour Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jimmytavino 16 #41 August 20, 2008 upon first reading about this topic...I thought... these colleges are simply looking for a way to insulate themselves from LIABILITY issues... resulting from BAD incidents, ( such as DEATH ) from "binge drinking"... it has very little to do with any feigned 'concern' about the well being of the students... someone Under 21 . gets blasted at a frat party or in a dorm room.....something bad occurs,,, and the Institute, could face lawsuits.Move the age down to 18, and suddenly the loss is still sad,,, but there is NO culpability on the part of the college... what a shame... show me the list of physicians, social scientists, and local, state or federal ELECTED representatives, who are in FAVOR of this idea.... we have Lots more to deal with in the world... than ALLOWING freshmen and sophmore College kids to drink..... it well may happen anyway... and we all know that there are many out there, who have problems with "limitations", and never know when to stop.....when it comes to drinking.... rather than pander to this crowd, and Hand them the rules which will allow for and YES even encourage such nonsense.... why Not try a RADICAL approach.... that of asking for and even demanding, Responsibility and adherance to the existing SENSIBLE laws which are already in place... if college kids can be smart enough to GET INTO college in the first place,,, can't they be smart enough to know when to say, enough is enough??? Alcohol is a pernicious, and proven KILLER... yet it is socially acceptable, yes, even encouraged...( think of the Billion dollar advertising industry selling beer like it was water. Convincing people that you can't enjoy a Televised sporting event, without a 6 pack nearby,,,,and hell, Even inventing a Vented beer can,, so one can suck them down faster...Of course the vast majority of drinkers, regardless of age. are sensible about it, (some having learned the HARD way,,,i.e. near death experiences with alcohol poisoning, loss of friends to irresponsible drunk driving,, wicked hangover issues, after such regalia,,) some still see drinking, and binge drinking in particular, as some sort of escape, from the "drudgery and demands, of college life " in a country full of whiney demanders,,,Now it seems that the HEADS of our Universities seem willing to give Up on the issue, and rather than educate, and require that students, behave In a ( God Forbid) sensible and responsible way... These leaders... who are all Knocking down 6 figures,,, from the tuition and fees, shelled out by overstretched parents,, who get very little for their $$$$$$, wanna just shrug their shoulders, throw up their hands in frustration, and adopt an "Animal House " mentality..... gives new meaning to the term, "Higher Education"....good idea?? Bad idea???? i vote for bad... jmy Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
warpedskydiver 0 #42 August 20, 2008 Quote Quote Quote Good idea. If they're old enough to be drafted, they're old enough to buy a beer. Yet you can't even buy a playboy on an American base. At least that's the way it was when I was in. We used to have swank and hustler centerfolds covering all the walls, and our ceiling in our section room. We also had beer machines in the hallwayBudweiser, Hofbrau Pils, and I think Heineken or Dortmunder, but those were always empty after the first day. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,147 #43 August 20, 2008 Quote upon first reading about this topic...I thought... these colleges are simply looking for a way to insulate themselves from LIABILITY issues... resulting from BAD incidents, ( such as DEATH ) from "binge drinking"... it has very little to do with any feigned 'concern' about the well being of the students... someone Under 21 . gets blasted at a frat party or in a dorm room.....something bad occurs,,, and the Institute, could face lawsuits.Move the age down to 18, and suddenly the loss is still sad,,, but there is NO culpability on the part of the college... what a shame... show me the list of physicians, social scientists, and local, state or federal ELECTED representatives, who are in FAVOR of this idea.... we have Lots more to deal with in the world... than ALLOWING freshmen and sophmore College kids to drink..... it well may happen anyway... and we all know that there are many out there, who have problems with "limitations", and never know when to stop.....when it comes to drinking.... rather than pander to this crowd, and Hand them the rules which will allow for and YES even encourage such nonsense.... why Not try a RADICAL approach.... that of asking for and even demanding, Responsibility and adherance to the existing SENSIBLE laws which are already in place... if college kids can be smart enough to GET INTO college in the first place,,, can't they be smart enough to know when to say, enough is enough??? Alcohol is a pernicious, and proven KILLER... yet it is socially acceptable, yes, even encouraged...( think of the Billion dollar advertising industry selling beer like it was water. Convincing people that you can't enjoy a Televised sporting event, without a 6 pack nearby,,,,and hell, Even inventing a Vented beer can,, so one can suck them down faster...Of course the vast majority of drinkers, regardless of age. are sensible about it, (some having learned the HARD way,,,i.e. near death experiences with alcohol poisoning, loss of friends to irresponsible drunk driving,, wicked hangover issues, after such regalia,,) some still see drinking, and binge drinking in particular, as some sort of escape, from the "drudgery and demands, of college life " in a country full of whiney demanders,,,Now it seems that the HEADS of our Universities seem willing to give Up on the issue, and rather than educate, and require that students, behave In a ( God Forbid) sensible and responsible way... These leaders... who are all Knocking down 6 figures,,, from the tuition and fees, shelled out by overstretched parents,, who get very little for their $$$$$$, wanna just shrug their shoulders, throw up their hands in frustration, and adopt an "Animal House " mentality..... gives new meaning to the term, "Higher Education"....good idea?? Bad idea???? i vote for bad... jmy When I was in college the drinking age was 17. No need to binge drink, we just went to the pub like anyone else. I don't recall ANY cases of binge drinking.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
crwtom 0 #44 August 20, 2008 Quote Alcohol is a pernicious, and proven KILLER... that's what they said in 1919 - and they had the idea that draconic laws are the best way to lead public health policy. The "success" is manifested in two totally useless amendments to the constitution - one canceling the other - and many more dead people. Exactly the point also here. Such moralistic laws that try to solve social/health problems by a simplistic crime-&-punishment approach are for populist politicians who want to win the next election. I would trust a university president over a red-meat politician any time of the day. Cheers, T ******************************************************************* Fear causes hesitation, and hesitation will cause your worst fears to come true Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #45 August 21, 2008 QuoteI would trust a university president over a red-meat politician any time of the day. president of a major university = red-meat politician you do realize that don't you? ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
LongWayToFall 0 #46 August 24, 2008 How about 18-21 beer only, and not allowed to have over .01 and drive. They will be cautious about driving, and learn the techniques behind selecting a DD, drinking at places you can walk to, etc. If you are planning on getting smashed out on the town, you gotta do some figuring. Besides, its hard to get alcohol poisoning on beer, they can drink a bunch and get used to it before they are slamming down the hard stuff on their 21st B day. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
birdlike 0 #47 August 24, 2008 Quotewww.newsday.com/news/printedition/longisland/ny-lidrin195806802aug19,0,4346240.story Good idea, or not? I think that anything that give a free adult American citizen the full measure of the rights of a free adult American citizen is a good idea. There is no valid excuse, in my view, for calling someone an adult and then saying that he is not free to enjoy every right of adults. Let's legalize it for them, and deal with whatever may or may not result from that. But to keep it illegal for <21 to drink just because you're worried that there'll be more drunken driving accidents or overdoses or whatever is just a really piss-poor excuse for denying adults their rights. Or are we ready to say that 18 is not "adult" anymore? Has modern civilization done SUCH a piss-poor job of raising children that whereas people used to make their own livelihood and start their own families in their middle teens, we can't even call 18-year-olds proper adults anymore?Spirits fly on dangerous missions Imaginations on fire Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
birdlike 0 #48 August 24, 2008 Quote From an ethical point of view, there's a good argument to be made that if you are able to sign a piece of paper that allows you to go and die for your country, and vote for the next senator/representative/president, you should be able to have a beer. Woot woot! Billvon and I finally agree on something! Billvon, if you were under 21, man, I'd buy you a beer! Spirits fly on dangerous missions Imaginations on fire Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
