Question for those who don't believe in a higher power.

[billvon 3,111]

>So if God were to make something in His image, it would be an entity
>that has 1) an Intellect and 2) has Creative powers.

Except that:

1) "In his image" implies "looks like him."

2) In the Christian creation story, man was not created with much intellect. His theft of fruit from the tree of knowledge became his first sin; the sin of trying to be like God.

[livendive 8]

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The most basic idea of what god is is:

1) A Universal Intelligence
2) The Creator

So if God were to make something in His image, it would be an entity that has 1) an Intellect and 2) has Creative powers.

That points to humans quite significantly.

Of course if humans were to invent God, wouldn't they be likely to give him supremely powerful but distinctly human attributes?

Blues,
Dave

"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!"
(drink Mountain Dew)

[JackC 0]

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The most basic idea of what god is is:

1) A Universal Intelligence
2) The Creator

So if God were to make something in His image, it would be an entity that has 1) an Intellect and 2) has Creative powers.

That points to humans quite significantly.

An arbitrary definition and a couple of ifs doesn't point to anything significantly.

[Muenkel 0]

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I fixed it for you. You assume there is a god out there.

Using the word 'assume' is an insult to Speedracer. Reading his posts over the years, I think he believes there is a god out there. He's entitled to that belief as much as you are entitled to yours.

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Chris

[beowulf 1]

Till there is any evidence of any deity it is an assumption no matter how much anyone believes in it.

[SpeedRacer 1]

How do we know you exist? You might be a post-bot for all we know.

Speed Racer
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[beowulf 1]

I don't exist!

[quade 4]

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So if God were to make something in His image . . .

Pretty presumptive "if" ya got going there.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[SpeedRacer 1]

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The most basic idea of what god is is:

1) A Universal Intelligence
2) The Creator

So if God were to make something in His image, it would be an entity that has 1) an Intellect and 2) has Creative powers.

That points to humans quite significantly.

An arbitrary definition and a couple of ifs doesn't point to anything significantly.

Not arbitrary at all. Pretty basic actually.

That said, it does nothing to prove whether God exists. That wasn't my intention.

It was only a statement about the most basic definition of God among those who believe in God: ie, a Universal Intelligence and the Creator.

Speed Racer
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[georgerussia 0]

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Do you believe in some sort of higher power that created things, but don't believe in the organized religions?

It doesn't make any sense since it doesn't pass Occam razor test.
Introducing a "higher power that creates things" does not simplify the theory. In fact it only makes it worse, since the next question is obvious - where did this "higher power that creates things" come from then?

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Is it that you don't believe in anything other than what science has proven and shown you?

To make it simpler for you: apparently there are a lot of Gods - Zeus, Odin, Beelzebub, Aji-Suki-Taka-Hi-Kone, Allah Almighty, Buddha, Perun and so on. Christians easily dismiss all of them, leaving just one. Atheists just dismiss one more.

* Don't pray for me if you wanna help - just send me a check. *

[SpeedRacer 1]

So then, barring space aliens (whose status, as physical beings, would be the same as ours), who or what is the most supreme intelligence in the universe?


I'm a scientist scratching away at trying to untangle all of the tiny receptors & enzymes that make up the metabolism of a cell.

It seems to me that someone a LOT smarter than me set all this up, since all of us scientists have been busting our butts for years and have only scratched the surface of being able to figure out how all this shit works.

So is an accident smarter than a human being?

(....hmmm, maybe we should all worship accidents, then.....Everytime someone spills their drink, we should all kneel down & genuflect.)

Speed Racer
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[livendive 8]

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So then, barring space aliens (whose status, as physical beings, would be the same as ours), who or what is the most supreme intelligence in the universe?


I'm a scientist scratching away at trying to untangle all of the tiny receptors & enzymes that make up the metabolism of a cell.

If you asked one of those cells what is the most supreme intelligence in the universe, what kind of answer would you expect?

If you asked an ant to describe the intelligence of a human, how close do you think it could get to the truth?

If you asked a dog what is the most supreme intelligence in the universe, what kind of faith would you put in it's answer?

Why would a human be any more likely to comprehend a vastly greater intelligence, such that one might give a reasonably accurate answer?

Blues,
Dave

"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!"
(drink Mountain Dew)

[quade 4]

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It seems to me that someone a LOT smarter than me set all this up, since all of us scientists have been busting our butts for years and have only scratched the surface of being able to figure out how all this shit works.

Basic chemistry + LOTS of time = life.

It takes just a "little" time to make basic building blocks, but it took BILLIONS of years of evolution to get us to where we are today.

Don't beat yourself up because you can't figure it out in your short lifetime.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[Muenkel 0]

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Till there is any evidence of any deity it is an assumption no matter how much anyone believes in it.

How do you know there isn't any evidence? There may be such a thing as private revelation. Can you prove that God has not made His existence known to an individual?

_________________________________________
Chris

[JackC 0]

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Not arbitrary at all. Pretty basic actually.

Well it is really. It might be a base level definition that many religions believe, but since there is no evidence to suggest that there is a universal intelligence, it's an arbitrary criterion.

[JackC 0]

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How do you know there isn't any evidence? There may be such a thing as private revelation. Can you prove that God has not made His existence known to an individual?

There may be private revealation but there are no known cases of it that have proven to be true. Neither is there any proven entity known to be capable of producing such an effect. There are however, countless cases of auditory and optical halucination. In fact halucinations are very common and can be caused by something as simple as tiredness.

So unless you can categorically discount halucinations and I don't see how you can, private revealation will always be subject to the real and significant possibility that it had a more earthly origin. Therefore, claiming private revealation isn't evidence enough to convince someone else and should really be viewed with skepticism by the person experiencing it.

[georgerussia 0]

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So then, barring space aliens (whose status, as physical beings, would be the same as ours), who or what is the most supreme intelligence in the universe?

The term "the most supreme intelligence" does not make any sense to me, same as "the most powerful thing in the universe". Those are religious terms which seems to have no applicable value outside the religion value system.

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I'm a scientist scratching away at trying to untangle all of the tiny receptors & enzymes that make up the metabolism of a cell. It seems to me that someone a LOT smarter than me set all this up, since all of us scientists have been busting our butts for years and have only scratched the surface of being able to figure out how all this shit works.

This is the old argument, which has been already explained multiple times. Let me quote John A. Paulos' "Irreligion":


How is it that modern free-market economies are complex as they are, boasting amazingly elaborate production, distribution, and communication systems? Go into almost every drug store, and you can find your favorite candy bar. Every supermarket has your brand of spaghetti sauce, or the store down the block does. Your size and style of jeans are in every neighborhood.
And what is true on personal level is true at the industrial level. Somehow there is enough ball bearings and computer chips in the right places in factories all over the country. Oil and gas supplies are, by and large, where they're needed . Your e-mail reaches you in Miami as well as in Milwaukee, not to mention Barcelona and Bangkok.
The natural question, discussed first by Adam Smith and later by Friedrich Hayek and Karl Popper, among others, is, Who designed this marvel of complexity? Which commissar decreed the number of dental flosses for each retail outlet? The answer is that, of course, no economical god designed this system. It emerged and grew by itself, a stunningly obvious example of spontaneously evolving order. No one argues that ALL the components of the candy bar production and distribution system must have been put in place at once, or else there would be no Snickers at the corner store.

* Don't pray for me if you wanna help - just send me a check. *

[beowulf 1]

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Till there is any evidence of any deity it is an assumption no matter how much anyone believes in it.

How do you know there isn't any evidence? There may be such a thing as private revelation. Can you prove
that God has not made His existence known to an individual?

Can you prove the boogie man doesn't exist? or Odin? or name any other deity?
You could say the same thing about each of them.
With out any evidence no deity could be reasonably believed to exist.

[Muenkel 0]

Yes, hallucinations do exist. This does not prove that a person has not experienced a true revelation from God. I would imagine that if God chose to reveal something to someone or reveal his presence, He would not leave any doubt within the individual as to its authenticity. Granted, in this type of circumstance, the person would have no way of proving the experience to another unless God intends it to be shared.

No one here can prove this does not happen and has not happened throughout history. Everyone can be as skeptical as they wish, but none of us have the ability to know the experiences of every human.

_________________________________________
Chris

[PLFXpert 0]

I believe in God. And I believe in natural selection.

One could argue I like to steer clear of extremes.

It's true, in some senses.

To answer your question: IMO, it all came from a combination of things/events that happened just so...

It's all about Peak 37.

Paint me in a corner, but my color comes back.

[JackC 0]

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Yes, hallucinations do exist. This does not prove that a person has not experienced a true revelation from God. I would imagine that if God chose to reveal something to someone or reveal his presence, He would not leave any doubt within the individual as to its authenticity.

Any revealation, no mater how convincing, could have been caused by a halucination. Since halucinations are very common and the number of proven gods remains at zero, revealations cannot be considered to be evidence. There is no way around that.

[Everon 0]

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Of the many people in this world, those that believe in a higher power feel this world was created. Others have the big bang theory, as well as many more thoughts and theories. Regardless of your faith or belief, you probably have some idea as to how it all began.

Science has proven long ago that matter cannot be created, nor destroyed. It can be broken apart into the smallest pieces of matter: protons, neutrons and electrons, but it never goes away.

Where do you feel it all came from?

Well, this particular world, and all of the others in our universe, certainly weren't created. They evolved from collapsing clouds of gas and dust resulting in stars and their satellites (if any). The dust itself was the result of supernovea explosions - the deaths of massive stars that collapse upon themselves so violently that fusion produces the higher elements on the periodic table and subsequently this dust is blown back into space. When these clouds come close enough to other clouds, gravity takes over and another star is formed. It's simply a recycling process.

If I had to bet - I'd go with the big bang - a singularity erupting into a fireball resulting in our universe. There is evidence for it - an expanding, cooling universe. How did it all originate? I don't know - but that doesn't mean that question will never be answered.

[Muenkel 0]

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Till there is any evidence of any deity it is an assumption no matter how much anyone believes in it.

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How do you know there isn't any evidence? There may be such a thing as private revelation. Can you prove
that God has not made His existence known to an individual?

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Can you prove the boogie man doesn't exist? or Odin? or name any other deity?
You could say the same thing about each of them.
With out any evidence no deity could be reasonably believed to exist.

You seemed to have skipped over the phrase 'private revelation'. I am not talking about proving anything to the masses. I am stating that you cannot prove that God has not made His existence known to any individual.

_________________________________________
Chris

[Muenkel 0]

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Yes, hallucinations do exist. This does not prove that a person has not experienced a true revelation from God. I would imagine that if God chose to reveal something to someone or reveal his presence, He would not leave any doubt within the individual as to its authenticity.

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Any revealation, no mater how convincing, could have been caused by a halucination. Since halucinations are very common and the number of proven gods remains at zero, revealations cannot be considered to be evidence. There is no way around that.

Let me approach what I am trying to say from another angle.

I can see how you are looking at my posts and others from a scientific angle. There's absolutely nothing wrong with that, however, we must acknowledge that science has not yet proven everything.

I'm not trying to convince you or anyone as to the existence of God. I am simply asking a question.

Hypothetically speaking, if God does truly exist; why would it not be possible for Him to make His existence known privately to an individual? How can any one of us prove that this has not happened? If you wish, you can apply this question to the boogie man or the flying spaghetti monster.

_________________________________________
Chris

[PLFXpert 0]

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I am stating that you cannot prove that God has not made His existence known to any individual.

Do you believe that individual could prove that God made his existence known without reasonable doubt, though?

I get what you're saying--I think--that it's about personal (i.e. private revelation?) belief.

I believe, and I believe God has made his existence known to me and w/out hallucination.

Still, I can not prove it. I can not tell others it wasn't coincidence or happenstance or imagination. It is what it is to me.

Paint me in a corner, but my color comes back.