kbordson 8 #26 August 10, 2008 Quote Aside from the fact that it isn't really as farfetched a concept or exercise as some may believe it to be. Think about it, a scenario of starting over almost from scratch such as this, is not THATfar offbase of what could possibly happen in such an unstable world. & even if it is, it still makes a very interesting discussion. Instability of mankind itself with all the very real threats of nations constantly engaging in war. All it would take is one rouge nation with nuclear weapons & a similar scenario could become a reality. You don't think that living in bunkers or a post holocost world would be equivalant to going back in time to some degree, to start over from scratch with only the most basic of elements? Global warming! Even if you don't believe either of these scenarios are possibly going to occur in our lifetime: What right does anyone have to prevent others from having an intellectually based MATURE discussion on the 'what if' aspect of it. Thank you, Tracy. I appreciate the efforts to reign this back in. But... tell me what you think would be important to include in the education. What limits would you place on the population? Tell me what your thoughts on this lil group would be. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Squeak 17 #27 August 10, 2008 at Uni we had a similar project but we were send off 100 people intospace to start a new human civilasation. we were not constrained with what we could take technology wise, and it was shown that the best chance of survival was to be had with negro pigy lesbians with enough sperm and ova to account for genetic diversity Negro for pigmentation and ability to withstand harsher climates. pigmy to reduce weight on the traveling spaceship lesbian to account for physical and comfort needs. and woman to be baby factories.You are not now, nor will you ever be, good enough to not die in this sport (Sparky) My Life ROCKS! How's yours doing? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kbordson 8 #28 August 10, 2008 Quote Quote Quote 6Agreed... but with the strict divison of labor, you begin some level dominance/dependancy. That should be discouraged. The women, although primarly breeding is their job, should be able to survive without the males for extended time frames and should be trained in hunting or at least trapping. Older males... how much older? Late 20's? Or do you add a 40 something that can still reproduce but adds experience and knowledge to the group. (But then the females have to stay in the 19-24 age range, you don't want older females cuz of the decreasing fertility. . . but then you have 20 year difference in mating) IT's FLAWED you do not have enough genetic diversity. Sqeak... you are right. We don't have enough for an "adequate" founder base. But lets just go with the ten and tell me what you would train them on. According to some, we started with only two... at least I'm increasing it to 10. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kbordson 8 #29 August 10, 2008 Quote I'm very sorry. I will not to do it again. I definitely missed the point. No worries. You can make them all skydivers if you want. Also, 10 base jumpers or 10 belly, or throw in a CREWdog... but aside from skydiving... they have to survive more than 2-3yrs. Or... since there is only 10, would you say "no skydiving" due to the risk of eliminating 1/10 of the starting population Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Squeak 17 #30 August 10, 2008 Quote Quote Quote Quote Sqeak... you are right. We don't have enough for an "adequate" founder base. But lets just go with the ten and tell me what you would train them on. According to some, we started with only two... at least I'm increasing it to 10. forgeting the relgious bent. TRAINING them will depend entirely upon their mission, you stated their mission is to procreate and establish a new civilisation, so with only 10 people I would train them in survival skills medicine and music and animal husbandry. As a species they will not survive long but they might as well be comfy for the durationYou are not now, nor will you ever be, good enough to not die in this sport (Sparky) My Life ROCKS! How's yours doing? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Squeak 17 #31 August 10, 2008 Quote Quote I'm very sorry. I will not to do it again. I definitely missed the point. No worries. You can make them all skydivers if you want. Also, 10 base jumpers or 10 belly, or throw in a CREWdog... but aside from skydiving... they have to survive more than 2-3yrs. Or... since there is only 10, would you say "no skydiving" due to the risk of eliminating 1/10 of the starting population I would say no skydiving because YOU SAID that they cant take stuff with them ...NO PARACHUTESYou are not now, nor will you ever be, good enough to not die in this sport (Sparky) My Life ROCKS! How's yours doing? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kbordson 8 #32 August 10, 2008 Quote Quote Quote I'm very sorry. I will not to do it again. I definitely missed the point. No worries. You can make them all skydivers if you want. Also, 10 base jumpers or 10 belly, or throw in a CREWdog... but aside from skydiving... they have to survive more than 2-3yrs. Or... since there is only 10, would you say "no skydiving" due to the risk of eliminating 1/10 of the starting population I would say no skydiving because YOU SAID that they cant take stuff with them ...NO PARACHUTES Oh yeah... and no skyvans. Besides... if the doctor breaks her ankle, who's gonna fix it? Back on topic.... why would you include music? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Squeak 17 #33 August 10, 2008 QuoteQuoteQuoteQuote Back on topic.... why would you include music? I told you already, they already have the lower levels of maslows needs music is part of the higher levelsYou are not now, nor will you ever be, good enough to not die in this sport (Sparky) My Life ROCKS! How's yours doing? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites jcd11235 0 #34 August 10, 2008 QuoteLastly we started discussing the generation step. Initially we all wanted adults (and I still ended with that opinion)... but that will create a 15 year step between the generations. One suggested including a 10 year old child so that in 8yrs, not double that, the gene pool could be re-diluted. My argument about that was how helpful would that child be to take the place of an adult so that in a decade. . . 10 years of the group surviving later. . . . then that child fulfills that role. Many things could happen to that child in that time frame. Maybe I'm missing something, but in the given scenario, why would there be a need to wait until the kid is eighteen in order for them to reproduce? Wouldn't eighteen be a meaningless arbitrary number in that situation? I like Quade's answer, along with the suggestion someone else made of impregnating the females during the two month prep time, ideally by prescreened fathers outside the selected ten (i.e. qualified but not chosen) in order to maximize genetic diversity. QuoteAnd another discussion - Monogamy or polygamy? And how do you control for jealousy? I think polyamory might be superior to both in the described scenario, allowing not just multiple wives, but also multiple husbands. The concept of adultery would be counterproductive. Reproduction would probably need to be planned and tracked to minimize inbreeding. Great thread.Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Squeak 17 #35 August 10, 2008 QuoteQuote I think polyamory might be superior to both in the described scenario, allowing not just multiple wives, but also multiple husbands. The concept of adultery would be counterproductive. Reproduction would probably need to be planned and tracked to minimize inbreeding. Great thread. Inbreeding will be rife.You are not now, nor will you ever be, good enough to not die in this sport (Sparky) My Life ROCKS! How's yours doing? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites shropshire 0 #36 August 10, 2008 What is the minimum number of breeding pairs to produce a ustainable, diverse Gene Pool? (.)Y(.) Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Squeak 17 #37 August 10, 2008 QuoteWhat is the minimum number of breeding pairs to produce a ustainable, diverse Gene Pool? it's based on fecundity as well as gestation time and time for parental nurture. so different for all species Do a search on "the Founder Effect" (Mayr 1963)You are not now, nor will you ever be, good enough to not die in this sport (Sparky) My Life ROCKS! How's yours doing? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites shropshire 0 #38 August 10, 2008 Thanks... some light bed-time reading (.)Y(.) Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites jcd11235 0 #39 August 10, 2008 QuoteQuoteQuote I think polyamory might be superior to both in the described scenario, allowing not just multiple wives, but also multiple husbands. The concept of adultery would be counterproductive. Reproduction would probably need to be planned and tracked to minimize inbreeding. Great thread. Inbreeding will be rife. Agreed. I don't think that would be avoidable with an initial population of only 10 (plus fathers left behind). However, inbreeding between first and second cousins seems to be preferable to inbreeding between siblings and parents/offspring. I think a very relevant question would be: How close would the relationship need to be in order to be considered taboo by the group? At what points should sex be: 1) allowed with intent to reproduce? 2) allowed, but only while using available precautions to avoid reproduction? 3) not allowed at all? With such a small starting group, it's not reasonable to think that there would be no intimate relationships develop between not so distant relatives. At what point should such relationships be absolutely forbidden, and how should violators be punished? Question for the doc: As I understand, it is theoretically possible for fraternal twins (two separate eggs fertilized by two separate sperm, just to make sure I'm using proper terminology) to be each fathered by different fathers. Would it be technologically feasible to make that more likely during the two month prep period? Also, would it be feasible to implant one or two eggs from different (genetically qualified but not selected) females into the selected females during the two month prep time? Would doing so endanger the life of the recipient mother? I don't think all of the females should start out pregnant, since it might not work well for the group if all of the females were in their third trimester at the same time. If five or six females went, then probably three should already be pregnant upon departure.Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Leapinglizardto 0 #40 August 10, 2008 Quote Thank you, Tracy. I appreciate the efforts to reign this back in. But... tell me what you think would be important to include in the education. What limits would you place on the population? Tell me what your thoughts on this lil group would be. Good Morning Karen, My pleasure. This really is a fascinating senario to debate & discuss. I couldn't help but think a great deal about the whole concept since I read it this morning. Its amazing how very much thought regarding, that which is the most important of the knowledge & understanding we have now. That would ultimately be essential to factor into re-establishing a well-balance & diverse human race in starting over. I like this, it certainly does require a great deal of consideration of so many elements we otherwise truly take for granted. It is NOT by any means simple to conclude.I've been thinking about it since & it really is rather complex.Which is exactly what makes it so COOL. Some of the of the things that stood out in my mind, you already touched on this morning.Example, I thought along very similar lines by feeling also, that 1 of them should be somewhat older, for the very same reason, wisdom & experience more matri or patri-archial. But it makes much more sense how, with only 10 people you factored in limiting that to being one of the males due to childbearing concerns. I also have to agree with some sense of spiritual teaching, not religion necess. More Zen Bhuddist type of spirituality.Some other elements I've already found would be essential in the realm of what everyone should have knowledge of.*Agriculture/Horticulture*Hunting/Fishing* First Aide* Astronomy (no maps or compasses) so they'd have to be able to read the sky for direction day & night.sewing/making clothingSomeone has to be knowledgable in 'mid-wife' delivering the babies stuff But I must say the 'age limitations' set here ( if I chose to agree with them 100% nah I don't so there) Knocks out 1/2 my list!It's pretty pathetic when you have to TELL people you're fucking cool Skymama «narrative»This thread will lock in 3..2.. What a load of narrow-minded Xenophobic Bullshit!-squeak Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Squeak 17 #41 August 10, 2008 everyone is focusing on the breeding process but other things are in need of consideration also. since not "things" are being taken back, immunisations will not occur, so there for someone will need to know a great deal about herbal medicines and essence extraction. (penicillin moulds etc..). Also you we be putting them beck to a "stone age" so geology and black smithing will need to be known as well as build and carpentry plus numerous other "modrn skills). Weaving and yarn making for instance. Tanning hides etc... dont forget that unless VERY careful most of the progenitors knowledge will die with them. so 2-3 generations down you could find them in a very poor situation.You are not now, nor will you ever be, good enough to not die in this sport (Sparky) My Life ROCKS! How's yours doing? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites diablopilot 2 #42 August 11, 2008 QuoteAnd another discussion - Monogamy or polygamy? For survival if must be polygamy. QuoteAnd how do you control for jealousy? Intelligence.---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites billvon 3,114 #43 August 11, 2008 I'll ignore the genetic diversity angle and go with skills. Basic skills required: Physical chemistry Organic chemistry Basic physics (mechanics, electrical, hydraulic) Organic farming Midwifing First aid Specific skills: Portland cement manufacture Copper and bronze smelting Spinning/weaving Edible plant identification Soil analysis Skills not needed: Medical Legal Organizational Most technological Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Squeak 17 #44 August 11, 2008 Quote Skills not needed: Medical Organizational Most technological Would have to disagree here a bit, organisational skills may not be pertinent for ten people but they will be for the future generations. First Aid will only get you so far and will not help with Disease (no immunisations) technology, weaving on a loom and making yarn would seem to me to be moderately important for a growing naked community, aswell as tanning processesYou are not now, nor will you ever be, good enough to not die in this sport (Sparky) My Life ROCKS! How's yours doing? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites shropshire 0 #45 August 11, 2008 Skills not required :- Middle Managers, Hairdressers Telephone Sanitisers (.)Y(.) Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kbordson 8 #46 August 11, 2008 Quote Skills not required :- Middle Managers, Hairdressers Telephone Sanitisers Silly, That's the B Ark. We're designing the A Team here Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kbordson 8 #47 August 11, 2008 QuoteI'll ignore the genetic diversity angle and go with skills. Basic skills required: Physical chemistry Organic chemistry Basic physics (mechanics, electrical, hydraulic) Organic farming Midwifing First aid How much organic chem can you teach in that work up time? One to two months isn't a lot to work with. But... I like the organic farming! What about animal husbandry for domestication purposes? And as Tracy noted (and I completely forgot about) Basic Navigation (both land and stars) Specific skills: Portland cement manufacture Copper and bronze smelting Spinning/weaving Edible plant identification Soil analysis Skills not needed: Medical Legal Organizational Most technological Would have to disagree here a bit, organisational skills may not be pertinent for ten people but they will be for the future generations. I think a Leader will develop in time, but you don't need administrators or secretaries that just do the work of others. Everyone needs to play well without the "upper levels" looking over them First Aid will only get you so far and will not help with Disease (no immunisations) But he is right to not need the whole medical knowledge. House might be smart, but he would NOT be on the list (for MANY reasons - the first one being that he's fictitious and we can't have any fake people on this real problem) First aid and midwifery covers many of the issues that the 10 would encounter - BABIES, Bites, breaks, barfing. Basic stuffs. technology, weaving on a loom and making yarn would seem to me to be moderately important for a growing naked community, aswell as tanning processes He included spinning/weaving, but I read that technology as not needing an IT guy. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Leapinglizardto 0 #48 August 11, 2008 Quote Skills not required :-Middle Managers,HairdressersTelephone Sanitisers Quote kills not needed: Medical Legal Organizational Most technological You forgot Politicians & Tele-marketing It's pretty pathetic when you have to TELL people you're fucking cool Skymama «narrative»This thread will lock in 3..2.. What a load of narrow-minded Xenophobic Bullshit!-squeak Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Squeak 17 #49 August 11, 2008 QuoteQuote First Aid will only get you so far and will not help with Disease (no immunisations) But he is right to not need the whole medical knowledge. House might be smart, but he would NOT be on the list (for MANY reasons - the first one being that he's fictitious and we can't have any fake people on this real problem) First aid and midwifery covers many of the issues that the 10 would encounter - BABIES, Bites, breaks, barfing. Basic stuffs. technology, weaving on a loom and making yarn would seem to me to be moderately important for a growing naked community, as well as tanning processes He included spinning/weaving, but I read that technology as not needing an IT guy.RE the IT only an idiot would think IT was required in pre-homonid times. Whilst first aid and midwifery would suffice for the progenitors and the initial offspring, you are both neglecting the fact that you are trying to foster a new civilisation, do you expect them to re-invent the wheels of progress in both medical and technological arenas. Suffering through the ils and ailments and diseases of history again. Moreover you need to consider that there immunities my not be valid in this previous age and they may themselves bring disease to this ageYou are not now, nor will you ever be, good enough to not die in this sport (Sparky) My Life ROCKS! How's yours doing? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites billvon 3,114 #50 August 11, 2008 >How much organic chem can you teach in that work up time? >One to two months isn't a lot to work with. True. But you may be able to get them the basics - and it's not something you can learn from first principles. >What about animal husbandry for domestication purposes? Not needed. Basic farming and hunting will take care of food initially, and the more hardy animals (goats, fowl) will be the first animals domesticated. Don't forget, there won't be any chickens or cows, at least of the sort we're familiar with. >And as Tracy noted (and I completely forgot about) Basic Navigation (both >land and stars) Not needed for many generations. You have to concentrate on skills that will keep the first few generations alive; anything else will likely be lost. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 3 4 Next Page 2 of 4 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. 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jcd11235 0 #34 August 10, 2008 QuoteLastly we started discussing the generation step. Initially we all wanted adults (and I still ended with that opinion)... but that will create a 15 year step between the generations. One suggested including a 10 year old child so that in 8yrs, not double that, the gene pool could be re-diluted. My argument about that was how helpful would that child be to take the place of an adult so that in a decade. . . 10 years of the group surviving later. . . . then that child fulfills that role. Many things could happen to that child in that time frame. Maybe I'm missing something, but in the given scenario, why would there be a need to wait until the kid is eighteen in order for them to reproduce? Wouldn't eighteen be a meaningless arbitrary number in that situation? I like Quade's answer, along with the suggestion someone else made of impregnating the females during the two month prep time, ideally by prescreened fathers outside the selected ten (i.e. qualified but not chosen) in order to maximize genetic diversity. QuoteAnd another discussion - Monogamy or polygamy? And how do you control for jealousy? I think polyamory might be superior to both in the described scenario, allowing not just multiple wives, but also multiple husbands. The concept of adultery would be counterproductive. Reproduction would probably need to be planned and tracked to minimize inbreeding. Great thread.Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Squeak 17 #35 August 10, 2008 QuoteQuote I think polyamory might be superior to both in the described scenario, allowing not just multiple wives, but also multiple husbands. The concept of adultery would be counterproductive. Reproduction would probably need to be planned and tracked to minimize inbreeding. Great thread. Inbreeding will be rife.You are not now, nor will you ever be, good enough to not die in this sport (Sparky) My Life ROCKS! How's yours doing? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites shropshire 0 #36 August 10, 2008 What is the minimum number of breeding pairs to produce a ustainable, diverse Gene Pool? (.)Y(.) Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Squeak 17 #37 August 10, 2008 QuoteWhat is the minimum number of breeding pairs to produce a ustainable, diverse Gene Pool? it's based on fecundity as well as gestation time and time for parental nurture. so different for all species Do a search on "the Founder Effect" (Mayr 1963)You are not now, nor will you ever be, good enough to not die in this sport (Sparky) My Life ROCKS! How's yours doing? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites shropshire 0 #38 August 10, 2008 Thanks... some light bed-time reading (.)Y(.) Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites jcd11235 0 #39 August 10, 2008 QuoteQuoteQuote I think polyamory might be superior to both in the described scenario, allowing not just multiple wives, but also multiple husbands. The concept of adultery would be counterproductive. Reproduction would probably need to be planned and tracked to minimize inbreeding. Great thread. Inbreeding will be rife. Agreed. I don't think that would be avoidable with an initial population of only 10 (plus fathers left behind). However, inbreeding between first and second cousins seems to be preferable to inbreeding between siblings and parents/offspring. I think a very relevant question would be: How close would the relationship need to be in order to be considered taboo by the group? At what points should sex be: 1) allowed with intent to reproduce? 2) allowed, but only while using available precautions to avoid reproduction? 3) not allowed at all? With such a small starting group, it's not reasonable to think that there would be no intimate relationships develop between not so distant relatives. At what point should such relationships be absolutely forbidden, and how should violators be punished? Question for the doc: As I understand, it is theoretically possible for fraternal twins (two separate eggs fertilized by two separate sperm, just to make sure I'm using proper terminology) to be each fathered by different fathers. Would it be technologically feasible to make that more likely during the two month prep period? Also, would it be feasible to implant one or two eggs from different (genetically qualified but not selected) females into the selected females during the two month prep time? Would doing so endanger the life of the recipient mother? I don't think all of the females should start out pregnant, since it might not work well for the group if all of the females were in their third trimester at the same time. If five or six females went, then probably three should already be pregnant upon departure.Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Leapinglizardto 0 #40 August 10, 2008 Quote Thank you, Tracy. I appreciate the efforts to reign this back in. But... tell me what you think would be important to include in the education. What limits would you place on the population? Tell me what your thoughts on this lil group would be. Good Morning Karen, My pleasure. This really is a fascinating senario to debate & discuss. I couldn't help but think a great deal about the whole concept since I read it this morning. Its amazing how very much thought regarding, that which is the most important of the knowledge & understanding we have now. That would ultimately be essential to factor into re-establishing a well-balance & diverse human race in starting over. I like this, it certainly does require a great deal of consideration of so many elements we otherwise truly take for granted. It is NOT by any means simple to conclude.I've been thinking about it since & it really is rather complex.Which is exactly what makes it so COOL. Some of the of the things that stood out in my mind, you already touched on this morning.Example, I thought along very similar lines by feeling also, that 1 of them should be somewhat older, for the very same reason, wisdom & experience more matri or patri-archial. But it makes much more sense how, with only 10 people you factored in limiting that to being one of the males due to childbearing concerns. I also have to agree with some sense of spiritual teaching, not religion necess. More Zen Bhuddist type of spirituality.Some other elements I've already found would be essential in the realm of what everyone should have knowledge of.*Agriculture/Horticulture*Hunting/Fishing* First Aide* Astronomy (no maps or compasses) so they'd have to be able to read the sky for direction day & night.sewing/making clothingSomeone has to be knowledgable in 'mid-wife' delivering the babies stuff But I must say the 'age limitations' set here ( if I chose to agree with them 100% nah I don't so there) Knocks out 1/2 my list!It's pretty pathetic when you have to TELL people you're fucking cool Skymama «narrative»This thread will lock in 3..2.. What a load of narrow-minded Xenophobic Bullshit!-squeak Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Squeak 17 #41 August 10, 2008 everyone is focusing on the breeding process but other things are in need of consideration also. since not "things" are being taken back, immunisations will not occur, so there for someone will need to know a great deal about herbal medicines and essence extraction. (penicillin moulds etc..). Also you we be putting them beck to a "stone age" so geology and black smithing will need to be known as well as build and carpentry plus numerous other "modrn skills). Weaving and yarn making for instance. Tanning hides etc... dont forget that unless VERY careful most of the progenitors knowledge will die with them. so 2-3 generations down you could find them in a very poor situation.You are not now, nor will you ever be, good enough to not die in this sport (Sparky) My Life ROCKS! How's yours doing? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites diablopilot 2 #42 August 11, 2008 QuoteAnd another discussion - Monogamy or polygamy? For survival if must be polygamy. QuoteAnd how do you control for jealousy? Intelligence.---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites billvon 3,114 #43 August 11, 2008 I'll ignore the genetic diversity angle and go with skills. Basic skills required: Physical chemistry Organic chemistry Basic physics (mechanics, electrical, hydraulic) Organic farming Midwifing First aid Specific skills: Portland cement manufacture Copper and bronze smelting Spinning/weaving Edible plant identification Soil analysis Skills not needed: Medical Legal Organizational Most technological Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Squeak 17 #44 August 11, 2008 Quote Skills not needed: Medical Organizational Most technological Would have to disagree here a bit, organisational skills may not be pertinent for ten people but they will be for the future generations. First Aid will only get you so far and will not help with Disease (no immunisations) technology, weaving on a loom and making yarn would seem to me to be moderately important for a growing naked community, aswell as tanning processesYou are not now, nor will you ever be, good enough to not die in this sport (Sparky) My Life ROCKS! How's yours doing? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites shropshire 0 #45 August 11, 2008 Skills not required :- Middle Managers, Hairdressers Telephone Sanitisers (.)Y(.) Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kbordson 8 #46 August 11, 2008 Quote Skills not required :- Middle Managers, Hairdressers Telephone Sanitisers Silly, That's the B Ark. We're designing the A Team here Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kbordson 8 #47 August 11, 2008 QuoteI'll ignore the genetic diversity angle and go with skills. Basic skills required: Physical chemistry Organic chemistry Basic physics (mechanics, electrical, hydraulic) Organic farming Midwifing First aid How much organic chem can you teach in that work up time? One to two months isn't a lot to work with. But... I like the organic farming! What about animal husbandry for domestication purposes? And as Tracy noted (and I completely forgot about) Basic Navigation (both land and stars) Specific skills: Portland cement manufacture Copper and bronze smelting Spinning/weaving Edible plant identification Soil analysis Skills not needed: Medical Legal Organizational Most technological Would have to disagree here a bit, organisational skills may not be pertinent for ten people but they will be for the future generations. I think a Leader will develop in time, but you don't need administrators or secretaries that just do the work of others. Everyone needs to play well without the "upper levels" looking over them First Aid will only get you so far and will not help with Disease (no immunisations) But he is right to not need the whole medical knowledge. House might be smart, but he would NOT be on the list (for MANY reasons - the first one being that he's fictitious and we can't have any fake people on this real problem) First aid and midwifery covers many of the issues that the 10 would encounter - BABIES, Bites, breaks, barfing. Basic stuffs. technology, weaving on a loom and making yarn would seem to me to be moderately important for a growing naked community, aswell as tanning processes He included spinning/weaving, but I read that technology as not needing an IT guy. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Leapinglizardto 0 #48 August 11, 2008 Quote Skills not required :-Middle Managers,HairdressersTelephone Sanitisers Quote kills not needed: Medical Legal Organizational Most technological You forgot Politicians & Tele-marketing It's pretty pathetic when you have to TELL people you're fucking cool Skymama «narrative»This thread will lock in 3..2.. What a load of narrow-minded Xenophobic Bullshit!-squeak Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Squeak 17 #49 August 11, 2008 QuoteQuote First Aid will only get you so far and will not help with Disease (no immunisations) But he is right to not need the whole medical knowledge. House might be smart, but he would NOT be on the list (for MANY reasons - the first one being that he's fictitious and we can't have any fake people on this real problem) First aid and midwifery covers many of the issues that the 10 would encounter - BABIES, Bites, breaks, barfing. Basic stuffs. technology, weaving on a loom and making yarn would seem to me to be moderately important for a growing naked community, as well as tanning processes He included spinning/weaving, but I read that technology as not needing an IT guy.RE the IT only an idiot would think IT was required in pre-homonid times. Whilst first aid and midwifery would suffice for the progenitors and the initial offspring, you are both neglecting the fact that you are trying to foster a new civilisation, do you expect them to re-invent the wheels of progress in both medical and technological arenas. Suffering through the ils and ailments and diseases of history again. Moreover you need to consider that there immunities my not be valid in this previous age and they may themselves bring disease to this ageYou are not now, nor will you ever be, good enough to not die in this sport (Sparky) My Life ROCKS! How's yours doing? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites billvon 3,114 #50 August 11, 2008 >How much organic chem can you teach in that work up time? >One to two months isn't a lot to work with. True. But you may be able to get them the basics - and it's not something you can learn from first principles. >What about animal husbandry for domestication purposes? Not needed. Basic farming and hunting will take care of food initially, and the more hardy animals (goats, fowl) will be the first animals domesticated. Don't forget, there won't be any chickens or cows, at least of the sort we're familiar with. >And as Tracy noted (and I completely forgot about) Basic Navigation (both >land and stars) Not needed for many generations. You have to concentrate on skills that will keep the first few generations alive; anything else will likely be lost. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 3 4 Next Page 2 of 4 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. 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shropshire 0 #36 August 10, 2008 What is the minimum number of breeding pairs to produce a ustainable, diverse Gene Pool? (.)Y(.) Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Squeak 17 #37 August 10, 2008 QuoteWhat is the minimum number of breeding pairs to produce a ustainable, diverse Gene Pool? it's based on fecundity as well as gestation time and time for parental nurture. so different for all species Do a search on "the Founder Effect" (Mayr 1963)You are not now, nor will you ever be, good enough to not die in this sport (Sparky) My Life ROCKS! How's yours doing? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
shropshire 0 #38 August 10, 2008 Thanks... some light bed-time reading (.)Y(.) Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jcd11235 0 #39 August 10, 2008 QuoteQuoteQuote I think polyamory might be superior to both in the described scenario, allowing not just multiple wives, but also multiple husbands. The concept of adultery would be counterproductive. Reproduction would probably need to be planned and tracked to minimize inbreeding. Great thread. Inbreeding will be rife. Agreed. I don't think that would be avoidable with an initial population of only 10 (plus fathers left behind). However, inbreeding between first and second cousins seems to be preferable to inbreeding between siblings and parents/offspring. I think a very relevant question would be: How close would the relationship need to be in order to be considered taboo by the group? At what points should sex be: 1) allowed with intent to reproduce? 2) allowed, but only while using available precautions to avoid reproduction? 3) not allowed at all? With such a small starting group, it's not reasonable to think that there would be no intimate relationships develop between not so distant relatives. At what point should such relationships be absolutely forbidden, and how should violators be punished? Question for the doc: As I understand, it is theoretically possible for fraternal twins (two separate eggs fertilized by two separate sperm, just to make sure I'm using proper terminology) to be each fathered by different fathers. Would it be technologically feasible to make that more likely during the two month prep period? Also, would it be feasible to implant one or two eggs from different (genetically qualified but not selected) females into the selected females during the two month prep time? Would doing so endanger the life of the recipient mother? I don't think all of the females should start out pregnant, since it might not work well for the group if all of the females were in their third trimester at the same time. If five or six females went, then probably three should already be pregnant upon departure.Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Leapinglizardto 0 #40 August 10, 2008 Quote Thank you, Tracy. I appreciate the efforts to reign this back in. But... tell me what you think would be important to include in the education. What limits would you place on the population? Tell me what your thoughts on this lil group would be. Good Morning Karen, My pleasure. This really is a fascinating senario to debate & discuss. I couldn't help but think a great deal about the whole concept since I read it this morning. Its amazing how very much thought regarding, that which is the most important of the knowledge & understanding we have now. That would ultimately be essential to factor into re-establishing a well-balance & diverse human race in starting over. I like this, it certainly does require a great deal of consideration of so many elements we otherwise truly take for granted. It is NOT by any means simple to conclude.I've been thinking about it since & it really is rather complex.Which is exactly what makes it so COOL. Some of the of the things that stood out in my mind, you already touched on this morning.Example, I thought along very similar lines by feeling also, that 1 of them should be somewhat older, for the very same reason, wisdom & experience more matri or patri-archial. But it makes much more sense how, with only 10 people you factored in limiting that to being one of the males due to childbearing concerns. I also have to agree with some sense of spiritual teaching, not religion necess. More Zen Bhuddist type of spirituality.Some other elements I've already found would be essential in the realm of what everyone should have knowledge of.*Agriculture/Horticulture*Hunting/Fishing* First Aide* Astronomy (no maps or compasses) so they'd have to be able to read the sky for direction day & night.sewing/making clothingSomeone has to be knowledgable in 'mid-wife' delivering the babies stuff But I must say the 'age limitations' set here ( if I chose to agree with them 100% nah I don't so there) Knocks out 1/2 my list!It's pretty pathetic when you have to TELL people you're fucking cool Skymama «narrative»This thread will lock in 3..2.. What a load of narrow-minded Xenophobic Bullshit!-squeak Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Squeak 17 #41 August 10, 2008 everyone is focusing on the breeding process but other things are in need of consideration also. since not "things" are being taken back, immunisations will not occur, so there for someone will need to know a great deal about herbal medicines and essence extraction. (penicillin moulds etc..). Also you we be putting them beck to a "stone age" so geology and black smithing will need to be known as well as build and carpentry plus numerous other "modrn skills). Weaving and yarn making for instance. Tanning hides etc... dont forget that unless VERY careful most of the progenitors knowledge will die with them. so 2-3 generations down you could find them in a very poor situation.You are not now, nor will you ever be, good enough to not die in this sport (Sparky) My Life ROCKS! How's yours doing? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites diablopilot 2 #42 August 11, 2008 QuoteAnd another discussion - Monogamy or polygamy? For survival if must be polygamy. QuoteAnd how do you control for jealousy? Intelligence.---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites billvon 3,114 #43 August 11, 2008 I'll ignore the genetic diversity angle and go with skills. Basic skills required: Physical chemistry Organic chemistry Basic physics (mechanics, electrical, hydraulic) Organic farming Midwifing First aid Specific skills: Portland cement manufacture Copper and bronze smelting Spinning/weaving Edible plant identification Soil analysis Skills not needed: Medical Legal Organizational Most technological Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Squeak 17 #44 August 11, 2008 Quote Skills not needed: Medical Organizational Most technological Would have to disagree here a bit, organisational skills may not be pertinent for ten people but they will be for the future generations. First Aid will only get you so far and will not help with Disease (no immunisations) technology, weaving on a loom and making yarn would seem to me to be moderately important for a growing naked community, aswell as tanning processesYou are not now, nor will you ever be, good enough to not die in this sport (Sparky) My Life ROCKS! How's yours doing? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites shropshire 0 #45 August 11, 2008 Skills not required :- Middle Managers, Hairdressers Telephone Sanitisers (.)Y(.) Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kbordson 8 #46 August 11, 2008 Quote Skills not required :- Middle Managers, Hairdressers Telephone Sanitisers Silly, That's the B Ark. We're designing the A Team here Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kbordson 8 #47 August 11, 2008 QuoteI'll ignore the genetic diversity angle and go with skills. Basic skills required: Physical chemistry Organic chemistry Basic physics (mechanics, electrical, hydraulic) Organic farming Midwifing First aid How much organic chem can you teach in that work up time? One to two months isn't a lot to work with. But... I like the organic farming! What about animal husbandry for domestication purposes? And as Tracy noted (and I completely forgot about) Basic Navigation (both land and stars) Specific skills: Portland cement manufacture Copper and bronze smelting Spinning/weaving Edible plant identification Soil analysis Skills not needed: Medical Legal Organizational Most technological Would have to disagree here a bit, organisational skills may not be pertinent for ten people but they will be for the future generations. I think a Leader will develop in time, but you don't need administrators or secretaries that just do the work of others. Everyone needs to play well without the "upper levels" looking over them First Aid will only get you so far and will not help with Disease (no immunisations) But he is right to not need the whole medical knowledge. House might be smart, but he would NOT be on the list (for MANY reasons - the first one being that he's fictitious and we can't have any fake people on this real problem) First aid and midwifery covers many of the issues that the 10 would encounter - BABIES, Bites, breaks, barfing. Basic stuffs. technology, weaving on a loom and making yarn would seem to me to be moderately important for a growing naked community, aswell as tanning processes He included spinning/weaving, but I read that technology as not needing an IT guy. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Leapinglizardto 0 #48 August 11, 2008 Quote Skills not required :-Middle Managers,HairdressersTelephone Sanitisers Quote kills not needed: Medical Legal Organizational Most technological You forgot Politicians & Tele-marketing It's pretty pathetic when you have to TELL people you're fucking cool Skymama «narrative»This thread will lock in 3..2.. What a load of narrow-minded Xenophobic Bullshit!-squeak Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Squeak 17 #49 August 11, 2008 QuoteQuote First Aid will only get you so far and will not help with Disease (no immunisations) But he is right to not need the whole medical knowledge. House might be smart, but he would NOT be on the list (for MANY reasons - the first one being that he's fictitious and we can't have any fake people on this real problem) First aid and midwifery covers many of the issues that the 10 would encounter - BABIES, Bites, breaks, barfing. Basic stuffs. technology, weaving on a loom and making yarn would seem to me to be moderately important for a growing naked community, as well as tanning processes He included spinning/weaving, but I read that technology as not needing an IT guy.RE the IT only an idiot would think IT was required in pre-homonid times. Whilst first aid and midwifery would suffice for the progenitors and the initial offspring, you are both neglecting the fact that you are trying to foster a new civilisation, do you expect them to re-invent the wheels of progress in both medical and technological arenas. Suffering through the ils and ailments and diseases of history again. Moreover you need to consider that there immunities my not be valid in this previous age and they may themselves bring disease to this ageYou are not now, nor will you ever be, good enough to not die in this sport (Sparky) My Life ROCKS! How's yours doing? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites billvon 3,114 #50 August 11, 2008 >How much organic chem can you teach in that work up time? >One to two months isn't a lot to work with. True. But you may be able to get them the basics - and it's not something you can learn from first principles. >What about animal husbandry for domestication purposes? Not needed. Basic farming and hunting will take care of food initially, and the more hardy animals (goats, fowl) will be the first animals domesticated. Don't forget, there won't be any chickens or cows, at least of the sort we're familiar with. >And as Tracy noted (and I completely forgot about) Basic Navigation (both >land and stars) Not needed for many generations. You have to concentrate on skills that will keep the first few generations alive; anything else will likely be lost. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 3 4 Next Page 2 of 4 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. 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Leapinglizardto 0 #40 August 10, 2008 Quote Thank you, Tracy. I appreciate the efforts to reign this back in. But... tell me what you think would be important to include in the education. What limits would you place on the population? Tell me what your thoughts on this lil group would be. Good Morning Karen, My pleasure. This really is a fascinating senario to debate & discuss. I couldn't help but think a great deal about the whole concept since I read it this morning. Its amazing how very much thought regarding, that which is the most important of the knowledge & understanding we have now. That would ultimately be essential to factor into re-establishing a well-balance & diverse human race in starting over. I like this, it certainly does require a great deal of consideration of so many elements we otherwise truly take for granted. It is NOT by any means simple to conclude.I've been thinking about it since & it really is rather complex.Which is exactly what makes it so COOL. Some of the of the things that stood out in my mind, you already touched on this morning.Example, I thought along very similar lines by feeling also, that 1 of them should be somewhat older, for the very same reason, wisdom & experience more matri or patri-archial. But it makes much more sense how, with only 10 people you factored in limiting that to being one of the males due to childbearing concerns. I also have to agree with some sense of spiritual teaching, not religion necess. More Zen Bhuddist type of spirituality.Some other elements I've already found would be essential in the realm of what everyone should have knowledge of.*Agriculture/Horticulture*Hunting/Fishing* First Aide* Astronomy (no maps or compasses) so they'd have to be able to read the sky for direction day & night.sewing/making clothingSomeone has to be knowledgable in 'mid-wife' delivering the babies stuff But I must say the 'age limitations' set here ( if I chose to agree with them 100% nah I don't so there) Knocks out 1/2 my list!It's pretty pathetic when you have to TELL people you're fucking cool Skymama «narrative»This thread will lock in 3..2.. What a load of narrow-minded Xenophobic Bullshit!-squeak Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Squeak 17 #41 August 10, 2008 everyone is focusing on the breeding process but other things are in need of consideration also. since not "things" are being taken back, immunisations will not occur, so there for someone will need to know a great deal about herbal medicines and essence extraction. (penicillin moulds etc..). Also you we be putting them beck to a "stone age" so geology and black smithing will need to be known as well as build and carpentry plus numerous other "modrn skills). Weaving and yarn making for instance. Tanning hides etc... dont forget that unless VERY careful most of the progenitors knowledge will die with them. so 2-3 generations down you could find them in a very poor situation.You are not now, nor will you ever be, good enough to not die in this sport (Sparky) My Life ROCKS! How's yours doing? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diablopilot 2 #42 August 11, 2008 QuoteAnd another discussion - Monogamy or polygamy? For survival if must be polygamy. QuoteAnd how do you control for jealousy? Intelligence.---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,114 #43 August 11, 2008 I'll ignore the genetic diversity angle and go with skills. Basic skills required: Physical chemistry Organic chemistry Basic physics (mechanics, electrical, hydraulic) Organic farming Midwifing First aid Specific skills: Portland cement manufacture Copper and bronze smelting Spinning/weaving Edible plant identification Soil analysis Skills not needed: Medical Legal Organizational Most technological Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Squeak 17 #44 August 11, 2008 Quote Skills not needed: Medical Organizational Most technological Would have to disagree here a bit, organisational skills may not be pertinent for ten people but they will be for the future generations. First Aid will only get you so far and will not help with Disease (no immunisations) technology, weaving on a loom and making yarn would seem to me to be moderately important for a growing naked community, aswell as tanning processesYou are not now, nor will you ever be, good enough to not die in this sport (Sparky) My Life ROCKS! How's yours doing? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
shropshire 0 #45 August 11, 2008 Skills not required :- Middle Managers, Hairdressers Telephone Sanitisers (.)Y(.) Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kbordson 8 #46 August 11, 2008 Quote Skills not required :- Middle Managers, Hairdressers Telephone Sanitisers Silly, That's the B Ark. We're designing the A Team here Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kbordson 8 #47 August 11, 2008 QuoteI'll ignore the genetic diversity angle and go with skills. Basic skills required: Physical chemistry Organic chemistry Basic physics (mechanics, electrical, hydraulic) Organic farming Midwifing First aid How much organic chem can you teach in that work up time? One to two months isn't a lot to work with. But... I like the organic farming! What about animal husbandry for domestication purposes? And as Tracy noted (and I completely forgot about) Basic Navigation (both land and stars) Specific skills: Portland cement manufacture Copper and bronze smelting Spinning/weaving Edible plant identification Soil analysis Skills not needed: Medical Legal Organizational Most technological Would have to disagree here a bit, organisational skills may not be pertinent for ten people but they will be for the future generations. I think a Leader will develop in time, but you don't need administrators or secretaries that just do the work of others. Everyone needs to play well without the "upper levels" looking over them First Aid will only get you so far and will not help with Disease (no immunisations) But he is right to not need the whole medical knowledge. House might be smart, but he would NOT be on the list (for MANY reasons - the first one being that he's fictitious and we can't have any fake people on this real problem) First aid and midwifery covers many of the issues that the 10 would encounter - BABIES, Bites, breaks, barfing. Basic stuffs. technology, weaving on a loom and making yarn would seem to me to be moderately important for a growing naked community, aswell as tanning processes He included spinning/weaving, but I read that technology as not needing an IT guy. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Leapinglizardto 0 #48 August 11, 2008 Quote Skills not required :-Middle Managers,HairdressersTelephone Sanitisers Quote kills not needed: Medical Legal Organizational Most technological You forgot Politicians & Tele-marketing It's pretty pathetic when you have to TELL people you're fucking cool Skymama «narrative»This thread will lock in 3..2.. What a load of narrow-minded Xenophobic Bullshit!-squeak Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Squeak 17 #49 August 11, 2008 QuoteQuote First Aid will only get you so far and will not help with Disease (no immunisations) But he is right to not need the whole medical knowledge. House might be smart, but he would NOT be on the list (for MANY reasons - the first one being that he's fictitious and we can't have any fake people on this real problem) First aid and midwifery covers many of the issues that the 10 would encounter - BABIES, Bites, breaks, barfing. Basic stuffs. technology, weaving on a loom and making yarn would seem to me to be moderately important for a growing naked community, as well as tanning processes He included spinning/weaving, but I read that technology as not needing an IT guy.RE the IT only an idiot would think IT was required in pre-homonid times. Whilst first aid and midwifery would suffice for the progenitors and the initial offspring, you are both neglecting the fact that you are trying to foster a new civilisation, do you expect them to re-invent the wheels of progress in both medical and technological arenas. Suffering through the ils and ailments and diseases of history again. Moreover you need to consider that there immunities my not be valid in this previous age and they may themselves bring disease to this ageYou are not now, nor will you ever be, good enough to not die in this sport (Sparky) My Life ROCKS! How's yours doing? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites billvon 3,114 #50 August 11, 2008 >How much organic chem can you teach in that work up time? >One to two months isn't a lot to work with. True. But you may be able to get them the basics - and it's not something you can learn from first principles. >What about animal husbandry for domestication purposes? Not needed. Basic farming and hunting will take care of food initially, and the more hardy animals (goats, fowl) will be the first animals domesticated. Don't forget, there won't be any chickens or cows, at least of the sort we're familiar with. >And as Tracy noted (and I completely forgot about) Basic Navigation (both >land and stars) Not needed for many generations. You have to concentrate on skills that will keep the first few generations alive; anything else will likely be lost. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 3 4 Next Page 2 of 4 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 0
billvon 3,114 #50 August 11, 2008 >How much organic chem can you teach in that work up time? >One to two months isn't a lot to work with. True. But you may be able to get them the basics - and it's not something you can learn from first principles. >What about animal husbandry for domestication purposes? Not needed. Basic farming and hunting will take care of food initially, and the more hardy animals (goats, fowl) will be the first animals domesticated. Don't forget, there won't be any chickens or cows, at least of the sort we're familiar with. >And as Tracy noted (and I completely forgot about) Basic Navigation (both >land and stars) Not needed for many generations. You have to concentrate on skills that will keep the first few generations alive; anything else will likely be lost. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
