SkyPiggie 0 #1 August 6, 2008 Attack kills 16 police In an audacious and deadly attack just days ahead of the Beijing Olympics, two men from a mainly Muslim ethnic group rammed a truck and hurled explosives at jogging policemen in China's restive far west Monday, killing 16. The attack bore the hallmarks of local Muslim militants. Two Uighur men rammed a dump truck into 70 border patrol paramilitary police as they passed the Yiquan Hotel during a routine early morning jog in the city of Kashgar. After the truck hit an electrical pole, the pair jumped out, ignited the homemade explosives and "hacked the policemen with knives." Fourteen officers were killed on the spot and two others died on the way to the hospital, while another 16 officers were wounded. http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5jf4L5ib03dPJ1ov5Vv6jQTQqmMFAD92BQ1C80 Feel the love! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
livendive 8 #2 August 6, 2008 QuoteTwo Uighur men rammed a dump truck into 70 border patrol paramilitary police Does this count as terrorism? Or simple insurrection? Blues, Dave"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!" (drink Mountain Dew) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Frenchy68 0 #3 August 6, 2008 Quote Attack kills 16 police In an audacious and deadly attack just days ahead of the Beijing Olympics, two men from a mainly Muslim ethnic group rammed a truck and hurled explosives at jogging policemen in China's restive far west Monday, killing 16. The attack bore the hallmarks of local Muslim militants. Two Uighur men rammed a dump truck into 70 border patrol paramilitary police as they passed the Yiquan Hotel during a routine early morning jog in the city of Kashgar. After the truck hit an electrical pole, the pair jumped out, ignited the homemade explosives and "hacked the policemen with knives." Fourteen officers were killed on the spot and two others died on the way to the hospital, while another 16 officers were wounded. http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5jf4L5ib03dPJ1ov5Vv6jQTQqmMFAD92BQ1C80 Feel the love! On a funny note: if they were Tibetans, they would be considered freedom fighters by some. Being Uighur (whose demands are similar to the Tibetans and as legitimate one would argue), some will call them terrorists... "For once you have tasted Absinthe you will walk the earth with your eyes turned towards the gutter, for there you have been and there you will long to return." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ErricoMalatesta 0 #4 August 6, 2008 Peaceful muslims as the topic title? What does this have to do with faith? Thankfully the person above has already pointed this out with the Tibet comparrison. What are paramilitary "police"? A paramilitary is a paramilitary. Good luck to the Uighur people. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Butters 0 #5 August 6, 2008 QuoteGood luck to the Uighur people. Why?"That looks dangerous." Leopold Stotch Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ErricoMalatesta 0 #6 August 6, 2008 QuoteQuoteGood luck to the Uighur people. Why? Yeah why? Why could someone possibly support a group of poor people who want autonomy over where and how they live their lives. No you are right 70(+) Chinese paramilitary forces are probably in that part of Western China because everyone there accepts the Chinese state as legitimate and there is no need for the Chinese to implement their monopoly on violence. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Skyrad 0 #7 August 6, 2008 QuotePeaceful muslims as the topic title? What does this have to do with faith? Thankfully the person above has already pointed this out with the Tibet comparrison. What are paramilitary "police"? A paramilitary is a paramilitary. Good luck to the Uighur people. Some people would rather see the world in black and white and all conflicts as secatarian rather than try and attempt to understand the issues. even the article mentions that the group is not exclusivly Muslim.When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy. Lucius Annaeus Seneca Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
FreeflyChile 0 #8 August 6, 2008 Quote Quote Attack kills 16 police In an audacious and deadly attack just days ahead of the Beijing Olympics, two men from a mainly Muslim ethnic group rammed a truck and hurled explosives at jogging policemen in China's restive far west Monday, killing 16. The attack bore the hallmarks of local Muslim militants. Two Uighur men rammed a dump truck into 70 border patrol paramilitary police as they passed the Yiquan Hotel during a routine early morning jog in the city of Kashgar. After the truck hit an electrical pole, the pair jumped out, ignited the homemade explosives and "hacked the policemen with knives." Fourteen officers were killed on the spot and two others died on the way to the hospital, while another 16 officers were wounded. http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5jf4L5ib03dPJ1ov5Vv6jQTQqmMFAD92BQ1C80 Feel the love! On a funny note: if they were Tibetans, they would be considered freedom fighters by some. Being Uighur (whose demands are similar to the Tibetans and as legitimate one would argue), some will call them terrorists... My question is, regardless on how you view the bombers (terrorists/freedom fighters)... with the eyes of the world on China for the next few weeks, with them trying to sweep under the rug as much as they can and trying to present an image of China that is different from the 'human rights abusers' stigma/reputation that they have....isn't this about the worst time to do something like this? Wouldn't bombing create sympathy for the Chinese (even in some small way) and, if these groups present themselves as unruly, give a bit of justification to China's actions on the world stage? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ErricoMalatesta 0 #9 August 6, 2008 Quote Quote Quote Attack kills 16 police In an audacious and deadly attack just days ahead of the Beijing Olympics, two men from a mainly Muslim ethnic group rammed a truck and hurled explosives at jogging policemen in China's restive far west Monday, killing 16. The attack bore the hallmarks of local Muslim militants. Two Uighur men rammed a dump truck into 70 border patrol paramilitary police as they passed the Yiquan Hotel during a routine early morning jog in the city of Kashgar. After the truck hit an electrical pole, the pair jumped out, ignited the homemade explosives and "hacked the policemen with knives." Fourteen officers were killed on the spot and two others died on the way to the hospital, while another 16 officers were wounded. http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5jf4L5ib03dPJ1ov5Vv6jQTQqmMFAD92BQ1C80 Feel the love! On a funny note: if they were Tibetans, they would be considered freedom fighters by some. Being Uighur (whose demands are similar to the Tibetans and as legitimate one would argue), some will call them terrorists... My question is, regardless on how you view the bombers (terrorists/freedom fighters)... with the eyes of the world on China for the next few weeks, with them trying to sweep under the rug as much as they can and trying to present an image of China that is different from the 'human rights abusers' stigma/reputation that they have....isn't this about the worst time to do something like this? This is probably the only time they can draw attention to their plights without instant violent reprisal from the paramilitary... ...which garners a column on page 4 in big western papers. The fact this topic can be constructed with "hooray terrorists" and "china didn't deserve this" is a testament to at least that much Quote Wouldn't bombing create sympathy for the Chinese (even in some small way) and, if these groups present themselves as unruly, give a bit of justification to China's actions on the world stage? Where do you think the change will come from? The Chinese government doesn't care about what anyone else thinks, it never has. The fact they were given the Olympics is a remarkable bit of global double think in itself. p.s Quote Wouldn't bombing create It was an 'attack' on the paramilitary. Bombing civilian places and public events would destroy credibility with everyone. Which is where we should remember more than one group could be responsible if that were to happen. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pirana 0 #10 August 6, 2008 Quote Quote Attack kills 16 police In an audacious and deadly attack just days ahead of the Beijing Olympics, two men from a mainly Muslim ethnic group rammed a truck and hurled explosives at jogging policemen in China's restive far west Monday, killing 16. The attack bore the hallmarks of local Muslim militants. Two Uighur men rammed a dump truck into 70 border patrol paramilitary police as they passed the Yiquan Hotel during a routine early morning jog in the city of Kashgar. After the truck hit an electrical pole, the pair jumped out, ignited the homemade explosives and "hacked the policemen with knives." Fourteen officers were killed on the spot and two others died on the way to the hospital, while another 16 officers were wounded. http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5jf4L5ib03dPJ1ov5Vv6jQTQqmMFAD92BQ1C80 Feel the love! On a funny note: if they were Tibetans, they would be considered freedom fighters by some. Being Uighur (whose demands are similar to the Tibetans and as legitimate one would argue), some will call them terrorists... Freedom Fighters versus Terrorists. Depends mostly on who's side you are on; and somewhat also on the tactics used." . . . the lust for power can be just as completely satisfied by suggesting people into loving their servitude as by flogging them and kicking them into obedience." -- Aldous Huxley Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Butters 0 #11 August 6, 2008 QuoteQuoteQuoteGood luck to the Uighur people. Why? Yeah why? Why could someone possibly support a group of poor people who want autonomy over where and how they live their lives. No you are right 70(+) Chinese paramilitary forces are probably in that part of Western China because everyone there accepts the Chinese state as legitimate and there is no need for the Chinese to implement their monopoly on violence. You believe in evolution, correct?"That looks dangerous." Leopold Stotch Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
livendive 8 #12 August 6, 2008 Quote Quote Quote Quote Good luck to the Uighur people. Why? Yeah why? Why could someone possibly support a group of poor people who want autonomy over where and how they live their lives. No you are right 70(+) Chinese paramilitary forces are probably in that part of Western China because everyone there accepts the Chinese state as legitimate and there is no need for the Chinese to implement their monopoly on violence. You believe in evolution, correct? Are you suggesting these 70 weren't "the fittest"? Blues, Dave"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!" (drink Mountain Dew) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ErricoMalatesta 0 #13 August 6, 2008 QuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteGood luck to the Uighur people. Why? Yeah why? Why could someone possibly support a group of poor people who want autonomy over where and how they live their lives. No you are right 70(+) Chinese paramilitary forces are probably in that part of Western China because everyone there accepts the Chinese state as legitimate and there is no need for the Chinese to implement their monopoly on violence. You believe in evolution, correct? Yes. (If the follow up is some creationist-fundamentalist-american-bs about strong V weak please spare anyone with a brain from your juicy baited hook.) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Butters 0 #14 August 6, 2008 QuoteQuoteQuoteYeah why? Why could someone possibly support a group of poor people who want autonomy over where and how they live their lives. You believe in evolution, correct? Yes. I'm just trying to understand how you can believe that life is about adapting (evolving) to survive and replicate and then complain that a group that isn't adapting (evolving) is being taken over by a group that is adapting (evolving)."That looks dangerous." Leopold Stotch Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nerdgirl 0 #15 August 6, 2008 Quote On a funny note: if they were Tibetans, they would be considered freedom fighters by some. Being Uighur (whose demands are similar to the Tibetans and as legitimate one would argue), some will call them terrorists... I classify it more as an insurgency rather than domestic terrorism. --- --- -- --- --- Some background, for those who aren't familiar: The Uyghur uprising in western China dates back to the early 1990s. It goes back to the Afghan’s victory over the Soviets. China asserts that over 200 attacks occurred in Xinjiang, the Uyghur territory/homeland/geographic region, in which > 200 people were killed and ~500 were wounded (see, e.g., January 21, 2002 “East Turkistan Terrorist Forces Cannot Get Away with Impunity” Information Office of State Council; People’s Daily (9/13/2002) “FM Spokesman: ETIM a Wholly Terrorist Organization”). At least 8 groups have been described by Chinese, American, or scholarly sources as operating against the PRC in Xinjiang. China’s response to the Uyghur counterinsurgency has been brutal: reports of torture and summary executions have been rampant and persist (see e.g., Kahn, Joseph (12/3/2005) “Torture is ‘Widespread’ in China, U.N. Investigator Says” The New York Times; Human Rights Watch (1/18/2006) Human Rights Watch World Report 2006; Human Rights Watch (12/31/2005) “Essential Background Overview of Human Rights Issues in China”.) Anti-government violence in Xinjiang has overwhelmingly been a home-grown affair, although there were reports of insurgents being trained in Taliban Afghanistan and small/some amounts of outside funding. The height of the Uyghur insurgency in generally considered to have been the Yining uprising of 1997 in which >1000 Uyghurs rioted and over 150 were reportedly killed by Chinese security force excesses. China’s counterinsurgency strategy makes the USA PATRIOT Act look like a pinnacle of civil/human rights, by comparison. While the Chinese campaign was brutal, the campaign’s effectiveness is not attributed to that *brutality* (i.e., torture did not work), but rather due to counterinsurgency tactics and social policies that reached deeply into society’s grass-roots/local communities and (attempted to) reshape it from the bottom up. Such as influx of huge number of Chinese security forces and paramilitaries (estimated 100,000); influx of predominantly Han Chinese (estimate 9-10M, compared to ~8M Uyghurs); and building local institutions. Though education in Uyghur language is available in parallel schools, the Han language (Hanyu, also known as Mandarin) schools are increasingly chosen by Uyghur families – it’s seen as the language of upward economic mobility. (See, e.g., Xinhua (5-26-2003) “Role of Xinjiang Production, Construction Corps Important: White Paper”; People’s Republic of China, Information Office of the State Council (12/31/2006) “China’s National Defense in 2006” available through Xinhua; People’s Republic of China, Information Office of the State Council (12/27/2004) “China’s National Defense in 2004”; People’s Republic of China (2003) “China’s National Defense in 2002”; Shichor, Yitzhak (2004) “The Great Wall of Steel: Military and Strategy: in Starr, S. Fredrick (2004) Xinjiang: China’s Muslim Borderland. M.E. Sharpe, Armonk; Shambaugh, David (2002) Modernizing China’s Military: Progress, Problems, and Prospects. University of California Press, Berkeley; Harold Brown et al. (2003).) VR/Marg Act as if everything you do matters, while laughing at yourself for thinking anything you do matters. Tibetan Buddhist saying Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,120 #16 August 6, 2008 >how you can believe that life is about adapting (evolving) to survive and >replicate and then complain that a group that isn't adapting (evolving) is >being taken over by a group that is adapting (evolving). Evolution works through unfit creatures dying out. Compassion works through trying to keep those unfit creatures (like, say, a child with spina bifida) alive. Life is not "about" evolving; it's just how we got here. Heck, we stopped evolving a while back when we started to protect the weaker members of the species. (Which is a good thing in my book.) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Butters 0 #17 August 6, 2008 QuoteEvolution works through unfit creatures dying out. Compassion works through trying to keep those unfit creatures (like, say, a child with spina bifida) alive. How do you know that compassion isn't a by-product of evolution? QuoteLife is not "about" evolving; it's just how we got here. For you, life is not "about" evolving. That doesn't mean that life is not "about" evolving for others. QuoteHeck, we stopped evolving a while back when we started to protect the weaker members of the species. (Which is a good thing in my book.) We didn't stop evolving, we changed how we're evolving."That looks dangerous." Leopold Stotch Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
birdlike 0 #18 August 7, 2008 Couldn't happen to a nicer, more deserving country. (Well, maybe Venezuela.) Fuck the islamic terrorists... But fuck China, too... I guess I couldn't lose, with this one. Spirits fly on dangerous missions Imaginations on fire Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
birdlike 0 #19 August 7, 2008 Quote This is probably the only time they can draw attention to their plights without instant violent reprisal from the paramilitary... So the thing they want everyone to see them do when the eyes of the world are finally on them for a moment is blowing up innocent people and hacking policement to death unprovoked. Hey, where do I send my check?! Spirits fly on dangerous missions Imaginations on fire Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
birdlike 0 #20 August 7, 2008 Perhaps our local homeless people should take a page out of the Ughiboogi book... Next time some society chick is eating at a posh sidewalk cafe, and a homeless guy is hungry and needs to draw attention to his "plight," he should hoist a brick and bash her head in. Really pounce on her--make sure nothing recognizable is left after the attack. I mean, really mash her brain tissue into the pores of his brick, you know? The wetter the better. Naturally, the only fair thing for the maitre-d' to do is come running out with an opulent spread for him to dine on! Everyone loves a guy who informs you of his plight via the act of depraved, wanton murder, right?Spirits fly on dangerous missions Imaginations on fire Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
birdlike 0 #21 August 7, 2008 QuoteEvolution works through unfit creatures dying out. Compassion works through trying to keep those unfit creatures (like, say, a child with spina bifida) alive. Life is not "about" evolving; it's just how we got here. Heck, we stopped evolving a while back when we started to protect the weaker members of the species. (Which is a good thing in my book.) It's a good thing? Is that because of the uniqueness of humanity as opposed to the rest of the animal kingdom? What would you say if bald eagles began to feed those members of their population that were born with defective vision that prevented them from hunting? What if the parents fed and supported the defective chicks right on up through breeding age, and then they reproduced, passing on genes for exactly the opposite of what eagles need to survive as a species? Would you hope for the defective eagles to perhaps start passing on genes (although it may take a few million years) for echolocation, so eventually their deficiency would no longer matter because they'd now have given rise to a race of eagle-bats that hunted by sound instead of keen vision? I personally do not think it is beneficial, overall, that humanity waters down the quality of its overall gene pool by keeping defective specimens alive through artificial support mechanisms. This goes for everything from kidney dialysis to corrective lenses. Technically, since I wear eyeglasses (or contact lenses), I shouldn't go passing on my own genes. I recognize this. (Though my health overall apart from that is fine.) Neither should diabetics, or schizophrenics, or those with hypertension, or many other diseases. We are doing our species no favors in the long run. Just making ourselves genetically weaker.Spirits fly on dangerous missions Imaginations on fire Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
birdlike 0 #22 August 7, 2008 QuoteQuoteEvolution works through unfit creatures dying out. Compassion works through trying to keep those unfit creatures (like, say, a child with spina bifida) alive. How do you know that compassion isn't a by-product of evolution? If it is, it would probably (in the long run) end up being selected against. It's a trait that would have us expend our energy and resources on things that drag on us as opposed to give us an edge and help us survive.Spirits fly on dangerous missions Imaginations on fire Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nerdgirl 0 #23 August 7, 2008 Quote Quote Quote Evolution works through unfit creatures dying out. Compassion works through trying to keep those unfit creatures (like, say, a child with spina bifida) alive. How do you know that compassion isn't a by-product of evolution? If it is, it would probably (in the long run) end up being selected against. It's a trait that would have us expend our energy and resources on things that drag on us as opposed to give us an edge and help us survive. Perhaps if you re-consider your hypothesis a little you may see where/how compassion/altruism benefits the long term survival of the human species (think about reproduction and enabling your progeny to survive and reproduce in the future just to start, along with cooperative building). And that's not just speculation on my part. The disparate fields of sociobiology, philosophy, evolutionary psychology, & economic game theory deal directly with this. Just a few examples off the top of my head (when I first put responded to another thread : Moral (or usually expressed as the positivist “cooperative behavior”) has been shown to be an evolutionary trait that benefits human survival, e.g., “the Grandmother (& Grandfather) Hypothesis.” Reciprocal Altruism, which traces its citation lineage to Darwin. Myriad examples of altruistic behavior have been observed in creatures from primates to birds to ants, all with benefits. VR/Marg Act as if everything you do matters, while laughing at yourself for thinking anything you do matters. Tibetan Buddhist saying Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Butters 0 #24 August 7, 2008 QuoteQuoteQuoteEvolution works through unfit creatures dying out. Compassion works through trying to keep those unfit creatures (like, say, a child with spina bifida) alive. How do you know that compassion isn't a by-product of evolution? If it is, it would probably (in the long run) end up being selected against. It's a trait that would have us expend our energy and resources on things that drag on us as opposed to give us an edge and help us survive. I don't know. There was a point where humans were no longer just surviving but were also starting to thrive. At this point the greatest threat to humans were humans. Compassion helps reduce that threat allowing more humans to survive and the ones that are better adapted (evolved) to thrive ..."That looks dangerous." Leopold Stotch Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ErricoMalatesta 0 #25 August 7, 2008 Quote Quote Quote Quote Yeah why? Why could someone possibly support a group of poor people who want autonomy over where and how they live their lives. You believe in evolution, correct? Yes. I'm just trying to understand how you can believe that life is about adapting (evolving) to survive and replicate and then complain that a group that isn't adapting (evolving) is being taken over by a group that is adapting (evolving). I guess its because I have some understanding of evolution as an explanation of the biological sciences VS the institutions and relationships people construct with one another.... which is to say evolution has nothing to do with this conversation. Quote Quote This is probably the only time they can draw attention to their plights without instant violent reprisal from the paramilitary... So the thing they want everyone to see them do when the eyes of the world are finally on them for a moment is blowing up innocent people and hacking policement to death unprovoked. Hey, where do I send my check?! 1. No innocnet people were blown up 2. The presence of a paramilitary (not police) automatically rules out 'unprovoked' 3. Why are you trying to obtain the crown for 'stupidest new american on dropzone' Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
