Yet another looney with a gun

[birdlike 0]

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If you say so JR.

There are few western civilizations with as many gun related deaths as the US.

There are plenty of not-quite-first-world civilizations, and even some western ones that don't quite reach "our" level, that have every bit the gun-death rate as the U.S. (And please, don't call it the "US," because it's not a "WE," it's an abbreviation.)

Can you shed a little light on why it's not fair to compare the U.S.'s gun-death rate with places like Jamaica, Mexico, Brazil, Venezuela, South Africa?

I mean, if gun bans get guns out of the hands of civilians, why should it matter that these are underdeveloped places when you go counting gun deaths?

Spirits fly on dangerous missions
Imaginations on fire

[birdlike 0]

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It's not a 'gun' problem - it's a criminal problem. The anti's arguments are like trying to prove that ice cream causes obesity - it *does*, but a PERSON has to shovel it down their neckhole to do it.

Eaxctly!!!!!!! So, if we want to reduce obesity, obviously we need to dramatically increase the amount of ice cream and fatty foods available

Boy, you sure don't like facing the true point straight-on, do you.

The point is, no, we could leave the ice cream around if we held people to account for how much they overindulge. With responsibility and moderation, there's no danger from the ice cream, and no need to ban it.

Spirits fly on dangerous missions
Imaginations on fire

[birdlike 0]

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If you say so JR.

There are few western civilizations with as many gun related deaths as the US.

so when will you explain why the gun related death rate isn't rising as the number of guns continues to rise?

Your hypothesis falls apart.

BESTEST MOST AWESOMEST POINT MADE IN THE ENTIRE DISCUSSION!!
Over a million more guns out there each year -- and NO commensurate rise in gun crime. Go figure!

Spirits fly on dangerous missions
Imaginations on fire

[birdlike 0]

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but a PERSON has to shovel it down their neckhole to do it.

A civilized society would ban neckholes.

Those aren't the only kinds of holes we should see about banning...

Spirits fly on dangerous missions
Imaginations on fire

[birdlike 0]

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so when will you explain why the gun related death rate isn't rising as the number of guns continues to rise?

My original statement was poorly worded, but further explained in a subsequent post.

Gun related deaths in the US are higher than most if not all other western countries.

Which demonstrates that you believe that the violence follows the introduction of the guns.

So WHY should it not follow that as we see a MILLION MORE GUNS in civilians' hands every single year without fail, we don't have anything remotely like a corresponding increase in gun crime.

First you say that the gun crime goes where the guns are. Then you demur from explaining why more guns are not causing more crime to occur.

Face it, man, he's right: your hypothesis is indeed in tatters.

Are you going to continue to pretend you have not read repeated calls to explain this disconnect, this failure of your argument?

Spirits fly on dangerous missions
Imaginations on fire

[SkyDekker 1,465]

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First of all, with that statement, above, you're not even factoring out the population differences. The fact that America has 300 million people, far more than most other nations to which you are comparing it, means that even if the RATE is the same, it'll have more total deaths. So the fact that you aren't even thinking in those terms, shows that you don't know what the heck you're doing with this topic

Not quite true.

If you look at the rate per capita for gun related deaths in countries like Finland and Zwtiserland, you will notice that theirs is relatively high as well. Not as high as the US, but high compared to other countries as well. In both those countries the rate of gun ownership is high as well.

I understand this issue isn't as simple as just looking at guns. The issue just is far more complicated than that. However in general it stands that when within a country the rate of gun ownership is high, the rate of gun related deaths is high as well.

To the rest of the respondents. I didn't state the reverse, I didn't state that if you remove legal guns from the population that crime rates would go down (though gun related deaths would likely go down). As a matter of fact, I didn't talk about crime rates at all, just gun related deaths.

[birdlike 0]

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I understand this issue isn't as simple as just looking at guns. The issue just is far more complicated than that. However in general it stands that when within a country the rate of gun ownership is high, the rate of gun related deaths is high as well.

So, you're comparing different areas within the U.S. to each other, and claiming that where per-capita gun ownership is high, gun crime is high?

Are you factoring for the number of those guns owned legally versus illegally?

Doesn't it stand to reason that in order to have gun crime, you have to have guns around?

Do you recognize that the thing causing the guns to be used in crimes is not the simple existence of the guns and their being possessed by human beings, but the decisions made by those human beings; so that it is not axiomatic that a place with lots of humans owning guns has to have a resultingly high gun crime rate?

You seem to be willing to make a lot of very specious conclusions and insinuations on this subject. In many ways, your logic is quite suspect.

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To the rest of the respondents. I didn't state the reverse, I didn't state that if you remove legal guns from the population that crime rates would go down (though gun related deaths would likely go down).

Then what is the point of focusing on gun ownership? Is it that you care about wrongful deaths only when they are caused with guns? If all the gun deaths dried up because you made a (successful) gun ban, but knife crime rose to where the murder rate was unchanged, would you be ok with that? Would you call out for a knife ban? Just what would you do?

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As a matter of fact, I didn't talk about crime rates at all, just gun related deaths.

Once again, just what is the point of focusing on only gun-related deaths, in a practical sense? Other than as a purely academic exercise, I cannot see the point, unless the only wrongful deaths that bother you are those that involve guns.

Spirits fly on dangerous missions
Imaginations on fire

[birdlike 0]

I didn't mean to forget to mention that I think your assertion is bullshit.

You said, "In general it stands that when within a country the rate of gun ownership is high, the rate of gun related deaths is high as well."

I call bullshit. The rate of gun-related deaths will be higher in areas of a country that have a high rate of gun ownership than in those with low rates of gun ownership, because you can't kill people with guns that are not present. But whether that rate itself should be called "high" as opposed to "higher than where there are no guns" is the point of debate here.

Besides, we really should be talking about "places where gun ownership is legal, versus places where gun ownership is illegal," because anyone knows that just because it's illegal does not mean that criminals who want guns are not in possession of them. This could be why for 32 years, Washington, D.C., with a total ban on handguns, "enjoyed" a staggeringly high gun-death rate, FAR IN EXCESS OF THE VAST MAJORITY OF PLACES IN THE U.S. THAT PERMIT LEGAL GUN OWNERSHIP.

Can you really dispute that? Can you really dispute that D.C. and Chicago have gun-death rates far higher than just about every other part of the country, every other city in the country that does allow legal gun ownership?

Spirits fly on dangerous missions
Imaginations on fire

[SkyDekker 1,465]

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So, you're comparing different areas within the U.S. to each other, and claiming that where per-capita gun ownership is high, gun crime is high?

No.

[rhys 0]

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There has got to be some lesson that we are supposed to take from the fact that as many times as these questions have been put to anti-gunners, they show absolutely zero sign of either listening, comprehending, or conceding this most unassailable point.

It is quite diificult to to talk to right wing gun fanatics as they/you have your attitudes set in concrete.

Now sherlock, All gun free zones that i have been in. eg. Airports and conventions etc. have metal detectors, these stop other wepons such as knives at the same time.

anyone wanting to commit mass murder would have to get past these.

What is to stop any of the, 'once upon a time' law abiding citizens with thier gun to flip their lid after a session on 'meth' (for example) and start poping caps in asses?

Let's flip the coin, do you seriously beleive that if everyone had a gun on them and knew how to shoot it, there would be less gun crime?

If so, explain!

"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

[rushmc 23]

Let's flip the coin, do you seriously beleive that if everyone had a gun on them and knew how to shoot it, there would be less gun crime?

If so, explain!

[Ron 10]

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It is quite diificult to to talk to right wing gun fanatics as they/you have your attitudes set in concrete.

And your opinions are not?

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Now sherlock, All gun free zones that i have been in. eg. Airports and conventions etc. have metal detectors, these stop other wepons such as knives at the same time.

I am sure you know that gun bans at places like schools have not stopped violence from happening there. Then the only way to have a true gun free society would be to have metal detectors at every doorway in your opinion.

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What is to stop any of the, 'once upon a time' law abiding citizens with thier gun to flip their lid after a session on 'meth' (for example) and start poping caps in asses?

Appeal to emotion. What is going to stop a meth head from strangling you to death? Besides a meth head is not exactly a law abiding citizen.

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Let's flip the coin, do you seriously beleive that if everyone had a gun on them and knew how to shoot it, there would be less gun crime?

You have failed to prove your ban idea will reduce violent crime. And in states with carry laws violent crime went down after citizens were allowed to carry.

The CDC issued a report in 1996 that they could find NO reduction in gun crime in areas that had a ban in place.

With over a million more guns in circulation every year you have not been able to show a marked increase.

Places with bans, such as DC and England are seeing a rise in gun crime.

CCW holders are LESS likely to commit a crime.

Every time a State enacts carry laws the anti gunners claim there will be 'blood in the streets'...Yet that never happens. In fact, violent crime often drops.

Your best argument is purely based on emotions.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[JohnRich 4]

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If you look at the rate per capita for gun related deaths in countries like Finland and Zwtiserland, you will notice that theirs is relatively high as well. Not as high as the US, but high compared to other countries as well. In both those countries the rate of gun ownership is high as well.

Wrong again.

Anyone can cherry-pick examples to match their preconceived notions. That's what you're trying to do here.

But when you look at ALL the examples, you see that there is NO CORRELATION between gun ownership rates and gun crime rates.

You continue to ignore all the instances of countries which have high gun ownership and low gun crime. Those particular examples are really pesky for you, aren't they? You really should, for the sake of your credibility, quit burying your head in the sand and ignoring them.

[birdlike 0]

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So, you're comparing different areas within the U.S. to each other, and claiming that where per-capita gun ownership is high, gun crime is high?

No.

Then I am lying when I quote you as having said the following: "However in general it stands that when within a country the rate of gun ownership is high, the rate of gun related deaths is high as well"?

Since the rate of gun ownership can't be high, low, or in between "without a country" (whatever that would mean) I took you to mean that you were comparing parts of a country "within" a country that have high rate of gun ownership with those parts "within" the country that have low rates of gun ownership.

Maybe the discussion would benefit from you being clearer about what it is you mean. It's just a thought, worth considering, hey?

Spirits fly on dangerous missions
Imaginations on fire

[birdlike 0]

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There has got to be some lesson that we are supposed to take from the fact that as many times as these questions have been put to anti-gunners, they show absolutely zero sign of either listening, comprehending, or conceding this most unassailable point.

It is quite diificult to to talk to right wing gun fanatics as they/you have your attitudes set in concrete.

Now sherlock, All gun free zones that i have been in. eg. Airports and conventions etc. have metal detectors, these stop other wepons such as knives at the same time.

Sherlock, have you never voted? In the U.S., polling places tend to be "gun-free zones," as well as most schools, and bars, and post offices.

I have never in my life been to a post office that was guarded by an armed guard, and posted with metal detectors. Have you?

No?

Then I dare say that you've been to "gun-free zones" that were not thusly guarded.

A "gun-free zone" is any place that says it is a "gun-free zone." Our whole point is that it is pathetic wishful thinking that calling a place a "gun-free zone" establishes that badguys cannot bring guns into them and slaughter innocent people.

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anyone wanting to commit mass murder would have to get past these.

You really think that a determined psycho would not be able to approach a metal detector, with planning aforethought, and be able to shoot a metal detector guard--even an armed one-- in the face before the guard knows he has a psycho to defend against? And then maybe a few more people before the first additional officers arrive? Come on, now, it's that hard for even a balanced mind to imagine.

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What is to stop any of the, 'once upon a time' law abiding citizens with thier gun to flip their lid after a session on 'meth' (for example) and start poping caps in asses?

What is stopping you from citing us some examples of this very thing. Surely with a 232 year history of gun ownership in the U.S., and now 80,000,000 gun owners with 300,000,000 guns, if this were a persistent problem, you could find examples to cite for us left and right! Why are you asking as though we are waiting for this kind of thing to start happening? We've had all of the ingredients in place for it to happen for quite a long time already. Still, you ask, "What's to stop it from happening?" as though still waiting. This is like waiting for the predictions of "blood running in the streets" after concealed carry becomes law. It's been law for decades now, and still the anti-gunners are acting like, "Any minute now [tapping watch]... Wait... Any minute now the blood'll be... you know... Any minute now." It's been 21 years in Florida. CWL holders committing crimes are an insignificant, infinitesimal statistical *blip*.

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Let's flip the coin, do you seriously beleive that if everyone had a gun on them and knew how to shoot it, there would be less gun crime?

I certainly do.

Would YOU risk walking into a bank and demanding all the cash, knowing that seven people in line behind you have guns they know how to use, and so does your teller, and so does the manager, and so does every teller down the line?

Would YOU risk robbing a liquor store knowing that the counterman has a gun he knows how to use, and so do the two stockboys, and so do the five customers roaming the aisles?

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If so, explain!

Ditto.

Spirits fly on dangerous missions
Imaginations on fire

[birdlike 0]

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The CDC issued a report in 1996 that they could find NO reduction in gun crime in areas that had a ban in place.

Ron, I think that was 2006, not 1996.

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With over a million more guns in circulation every year you have not been able to show a marked increase.

I never tire of seeing this one quoted. What I tire of is that the anti-gunners NEVER ADDRESS IT.

They whine and cry that the more guns, the more crime. When you point out that each year grows the number of guns by a MILLION and yet crime remains level, even goes down sometimes, they say nothing! It's unreal!

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Every time a State enacts carry laws the anti gunners claim there will be 'blood in the streets'...Yet that never happens. In fact, violent crime often drops.

Another gem that the anti-gunners never go near to addressing. The simple fact is, THEY KNOW THEY ARE WRONG.

Spirits fly on dangerous missions
Imaginations on fire

[rhys 0]

There are more countries that 'Don't' have such free laws on guns and they have much less problems with armed robberies, USA is synomimous with such crimes, just look at the signs over the gas stations!!

I'm sure you as well as most people have 'lost you cool' so to speak, i know i have but usually frustrated with dice on a board game etc.

what is to stop these millions of people with guns from shooting them in the heat of the moment.

You have your ideas i have mine, remember you are part of the minority when it come to this subject, maybe not in your neighborhood but you are the minority.

This gives me hope that my children won't have to live in the same fear you do!

"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

[birdlike 0]

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There are more countries that 'Don't' have such free laws on guns and they have much less problems with armed robberies, USA is synomimous with such crimes, just look at the signs over the gas stations!!

What about South Africa? Strict gun laws, and ASTRONOMICAL CRIME RATE.

You simply cannot correlate having the right to have guns with a high crime rate. You also cannot correlate having strict gun laws with having a low crime rate.

The state of Vermont allows anyone with a clean criminal record to carry a gun without so much as a permit to do so. VERY low crime rate--among the lowest in the U.S.

Why are you having such a ridiculously hard time understanding these facts?

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I'm sure you as well as most people have 'lost you cool' so to speak, i know i have but usually frustrated with dice on a board game etc.

what is to stop these millions of people with guns from shooting them in the heat of the moment.

Why are you asking "what is to stop them?" If millions of gun owners were going to need to be "stopped from shooting people in the heat of the moment," we'd be seeing that already. You carry on like there are hundreds of thousands, or millions, of criminal shooting deaths in the U.S. The idea of this is patently absurd.

Besides, are you really equating the average, normal person with the kind of psychotic who, because he gets angry, goes and shoots people?

Are you implying that I might just unexpectedly and inexplicably "lose control" of myself and "in the heat of the moment" just go on a fucking MURDER SPREE?

I wish you had the capacity to see how ludicrous that sounds. But I guess that if you did, you wouldn't be alleging this nonsense.

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You have your ideas i have mine, remember you are part of the minority when it come to this subject, maybe not in your neighborhood but you are the minority.

I cannot reconcile the ideas you've expressed here as rational.

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This gives me hope that my children won't have to live in the same fear you do!

There you go again, falsely imputing--because of your failure to understand--that I somehow am "living in fear."

You go ahead and believe that if you feel you must. It won't affect me in the slightest. But it'll still be 100% wrong.

You seem to be the one in total fear: you carry on as though every ordinary person is just a bubbling cauldron of explosive violent murderous rage just waiting to get its hands on a gun. You ask constantly what's going to stop the murder tide of al these millions of gun owners from happening. WHO is the one who lives in fear?

As the sarcastic saying goes, "I have a gun: why would I be fearful?"

Spirits fly on dangerous missions
Imaginations on fire

[Leapinglizardto 0]

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In the end, this is an exceptionally rare case. I don't feel the need to arm myself for something that is extremely rare, the same way I don't stay indoors because on very rare occasions fish fall from the sky.

Alrighty, but an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.
I have a servere allergic reaction to bee stings. Once stung I have but about one minute, as my body begins to react & enters anaphylaxis shock, to administer 1-2 doses of epinephrine & an anti-histimine.
So of course while I certainly do NOT anticipate being stung, EVERY SINGLE DAY I leave the house, I could get stung & encounter this scenario on ANY GIVEN DAY So it remains only reasonable that I still carry these items on me EVERY SINGLE DAY!
A hell of a lot of good it would do me, to utter with my final breath, as my throat completely closes up...'But I was going to carry that shit with me TOMORROW !
Now why would it be any different, to take the same exact reasoning & apply it to the same odds of encountering, a potentially homicidal looney? Thinking, as he pops a round or two off in me or some other innocent victim, (or brutally stabs or beats...whatever) right before my eyes, & uttering in that moment... Shit, ain't this a bitch! Ya know what? I was going to carry one of my legally owned, self defense weapons on me TOMORROW!
Think about that!
Know what I mean?
Skydekker, I certainly do give you credit. For at least responding in your last reply to my question here...that you reasonably believe an armed & ready, witness in the case in question, certainly could have made for a better outcome in this particular instance.

It's pretty pathetic when you have to TELL people you're fucking cool Skymama «narrative»This thread will lock in 3..2.. What a load of narrow-minded Xenophobic Bullshit!-squeak

[rhys 0]

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Why are you having such a ridiculously hard time understanding these facts?

http://www.scribd.com/doc/21670/Crime-Statistics-Murders

because the facts are simply quite the opposite of what you think.

South Africa is a poor example, it is not a first world country and fighting and killing is part of the history there.

remeber these statistics don't include injuries, suicides manslaughter.......

Just don't shoot yourself in the foot!

"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

[warpedskydiver 0]

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Why are you having such a ridiculously hard time understanding these facts?

http://www.scribd.com/doc/21670/Crime-Statistics-Murders

because the facts are simply quite the opposite of what you think.

South Africa is a poor example, it is not a first world country and fighting and killing is part of the history there.

remeber these statistics don't include injuries, suicides manslaughter.......

Just don't shoot yourself in the foot!

I am providing firearms credits, you purchase 10k rounds of ammunition for me, and I will shoot it, and never hurt another innocent human being.

That way you can feel very good about yourself, and stop worrying about others Second Amendment rights.

Sound like a good deal to you?

[Ron 10]

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what is to stop these millions of people with guns from shooting them in the heat of the moment.

If it is such a risk, you should be able to provide piles of data. But, what stops you from grabbing a knife, or a baseball bat in your fits of rage?

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You have your ideas i have mine, remember you are part of the minority when it come to this subject, maybe not in your neighborhood but you are the minority.

I only really care about my neighborhood. It is the place I live and do not stick my nose in other groups problems.

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This gives me hope that my children won't have to live in the same fear you do!

Sorry, but you are the one that keeps bringing up the "normal" guy that snaps and starts killing. That is not a feeling *I* have.

You seem to fear guns. That again is not a feeling I have.

You are entitled to your opinion. But your opinion really does seem to be based in emotion, not fact. And your opinion does not trump any one else's opinion. Especially when our opinions are backed with facts.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[Ron 10]

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Ron, I think that was 2006, not 1996.

We are both wrong...It was Oct 2003.

[I]In the exhaustive brief, the CDC analyzed scientific evidence regarding "bans on specified firearms and ammunition, restrictions on firearm acquisition [including waiting periods], firearm registration and licensing, concealed-carry laws, child-access-prevention laws, zero-tolerance laws for firearms in schools and combinations of firearms laws." The verdict? "[B]The Task Force found insufficient evidence to determine the effectiveness of any of the firearms laws or combinations of laws reviewed on violent outcomes[/B]." The task force also concluded that "firearms-related injuries in the United States have declined since 1993" despite the fact that "approximately 4.5 million new firearms are sold each year."[/I]

The "Declined since 1993" is the part I remembered.

Sorry.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[kbordson 8]

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It is quite diificult to to talk to right wing gun fanatics as they/you have your attitudes set in concrete.

The opposite is also true.

[kelpdiver 2]

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You have your ideas i have mine, remember you are part of the minority when it come to this subject, maybe not in your neighborhood but you are the minority.

How so? Americans believe in gun rights. You're the minority, and since the 2000 loss the Democratic Party has steered clear of the subject. And even if a majority didn't, the Bill of Rights isn't subject to the mob.