birdlike 0 #51 August 4, 2008 QuoteQuoteQuote Or are you going to go on your normal "madmen and criminals" rant that ignores the fact that mental patients and criminals CANNOT purchase weapons? You need to read the news more (not heard about the VA Tech shooting massacre?). Madmen and criminals are not SUPPOSED to be able to buy guns, but thanks to the diligent efforts of folks like you the laws are totally ineffective. As ineffective as the rule that was supposed to keep the madman from bringing a gun onto campus? As ineffective as the law against murder? How on earth do you gloss over the OBVIOUS FACT that the campus no-guns rule failed to keep anyone safe from the murderer, but succeeded in making sure any potential defender was unarmed? How much do you want to bet that right now, people on the campus of Virginia Tech who have licenses to carry handguns are doing so and saying "FUCK the rule. If I ever have to use this, it'll be to save lives, and I won't give a SHIT about being expelled for breaking the rule!"? I'm sure a bunch of people who were not in the killer's path have been awakened since then, and realized the idiocy of willful disarmament by the good guys.Spirits fly on dangerous missions Imaginations on fire Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites birdlike 0 #52 August 4, 2008 QuoteIf you seriously believe guns should be allowed to be carried at schools, your frontal lobe should be removed IMHO. If you can look at what happened at Virginia Tech and still believe that a "no guns" policy has the ability to save lives; that evil people will drop their guns at the boundary of a "no guns zone"; that good people are safest when they have no means of fighting back; I think you should consider the lobotomy for yourself. Besides, it sounds like you want our frontal lobes removed so we'd be dumb enough to believe the anti-gun lunacy that you believe. Sorry, not willing to join you in that deep a delusion.Spirits fly on dangerous missions Imaginations on fire Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kallend 2,112 #53 August 4, 2008 QuoteQuoteIf you seriously believe guns should be allowed to be carried at schools, your frontal lobe should be removed IMHO. If you can look at what happened at Virginia Tech The place where a guy with a history of mental problems used legally purchased guns (contrary to Mike's statement that loonies can't purchase guns) to massacre 33 people --- that is fact. The rest of your post is pure speculation and BS. PS afraid to enter your name and location in your profile?... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kallend 2,112 #54 August 4, 2008 QuoteQuoteFascinating how you, JohnRich and others try to justify the USA having the highest homicide rate of all western industrial nations ... Fascinating how in order to make the U.S. look as bad as you want it to look, you have to limit the scope of comparison to "western industrialized nations." Easy - the USA is still a western industrial (first world) nation, despite George W. Bush's best efforts to reduce it to 3rd world status. If you need to compare the USA to Mexico and Jamaica to make it look good, you have already conceded that we have serious problems.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites rhys 0 #55 August 4, 2008 Quote If you can look at what happened at Virginia Tech and still believe that a "no guns" policy has the ability to save lives; that evil people will drop their guns at the boundary of a "no guns zone"; that good people are safest when they have no means of fighting back; I think you should consider the lobotomy for yourself. pro gun morons thinking guns in school is a good idea, really don`t realise how stupid they sound. but morons will be morons............... "When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mnealtx 0 #56 August 4, 2008 QuoteQuoteQuote Or are you going to go on your normal "madmen and criminals" rant that ignores the fact that mental patients and criminals CANNOT purchase weapons? You need to read the news more (not heard about the VA Tech shooting massacre?). Madmen and criminals are not SUPPOSED to be able to buy guns, but thanks to the diligent efforts of folks like you the laws are totally ineffective. You need to read, as well - start with the ACTUAL process of buying a gun and what is involved and you might actually have half a clue of what you babble on about. You may want to take a look at questions 12 (and sub-questions), HERE and tell me how gun owners are preventing guns from being bought by criminals and the insane. You want to bitch - go to the Brady people and demand to know why THEIR laws aren't being enforced.Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mnealtx 0 #57 August 4, 2008 QuoteQuoteOr are you going to go on your normal "madmen and criminals" rant that ignores the fact that mental patients and criminals CANNOT purchase weapons? I don't think that's actually true. I think quite a few mental patients and criminals have purchased weapons via the loopholes that exist in current law and attempts at closing those loopholes have been sometimes stymied by various pro-gun factions in the US. To be fair, the NRA has sometimes supported such legislation, but it seems to have a mixed bag of support in doing so as does the ACLU against it. http://www.jaapl.org/cgi/content/full/36/1/123 I do not know if (or how) mental patients are handled in the federal records system - I forsee the ACLU getting involved with that one under HIPPA laws, but that's just my guess. It's going to be a thorny problem to solve, that's for sure.Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mnealtx 0 #58 August 4, 2008 QuoteIf you seriously believe guns should be allowed to be carried at schools, your frontal lobe should be removed IMHO. I used to carry a gun at school 5 days a week - why are you so terrified of a tool?Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mnealtx 0 #59 August 4, 2008 Quote Quote If you can look at what happened at Virginia Tech and still believe that a "no guns" policy has the ability to save lives; that evil people will drop their guns at the boundary of a "no guns zone"; that good people are safest when they have no means of fighting back; I think you should consider the lobotomy for yourself. pro gun morons thinking guns in school is a good idea, really don`t realise how stupid they sound. but morons will be morons............... Speaking of morons.... people wetting themselves at the mere mention of a gun provide boundless entertainment to those of us that can differentiate between a tool and it's user. Now, go off and wrap yourself in another layer of bubble-wrap and worry about whether your neighbors is going to come gouge your eyes out with a spoon (as terrified as you are about any weapon, I'm sure you don't have any knives in the house).Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kallend 2,112 #60 August 4, 2008 QuoteQuoteQuoteQuote Or are you going to go on your normal "madmen and criminals" rant that ignores the fact that mental patients and criminals CANNOT purchase weapons? You need to read the news more (not heard about the VA Tech shooting massacre?). Madmen and criminals are not SUPPOSED to be able to buy guns, but thanks to the diligent efforts of folks like you the laws are totally ineffective. You need to read, as well - start with the ACTUAL process of buying a gun and what is involved and you might actually have half a clue of what you babble on about. You may want to take a look at questions 12 (and sub-questions), HERE and tell me how gun owners are preventing guns from being bought by criminals and the insane. You want to bitch - go to the Brady people and demand to know why THEIR laws aren't being enforced. "Their laws"? Don't you mean "Our laws"? Ever tried looking up the word "loophole"? How about the phrase "inadequate background check"? I wonder how Seung-Hui Cho managed to buy a gun legally if people with mental problems are prevented from buying guns.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mnealtx 0 #61 August 4, 2008 Quote"Their laws"? Don't you mean "Our laws"? Ever tried looking up the word "loophole"? How about the phrase "inadequate background check"? I wonder how Seung-Hui Cho managed to buy a gun legally if people with mental problems are prevented from buying guns. Go read the form, professor. Was Cho adjudicated insane? Oh, I forgot - your liberal spidey-sense lets you know EVERYONE who might snap at any time in the future, doesn't it? My bad. Oddly enough, isn't this same sort of thing exactly what you're screaming about as unconstitutional in regards to the 1st, 4th and 5th amendments, professor? Funny how those chickens come home to roost, isn't it?Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kallend 2,112 #62 August 4, 2008 QuoteQuote"Their laws"? Don't you mean "Our laws"? Ever tried looking up the word "loophole"? How about the phrase "inadequate background check"? I wonder how Seung-Hui Cho managed to buy a gun legally if people with mental problems are prevented from buying guns. Go read the form, professor. Was Cho adjudicated insane? Oh, I forgot - your liberal spidey-sense lets you know EVERYONE who might snap at any time in the future, doesn't it? My bad. Oddly enough, isn't this same sort of thing exactly what you're screaming about as unconstitutional in regards to the 1st, 4th and 5th amendments, professor? Funny how those chickens come home to roost, isn't it? We're not discussing unconstitutional laws, we're discussing LOOPHOLES in laws that have already passed constitutional muster, and poor or non-existent implementation of those laws. Loopholes that you and your ilk defend diligently because closing them might involve a slight inconvenience to you..... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mnealtx 0 #63 August 4, 2008 QuoteQuoteQuote"Their laws"? Don't you mean "Our laws"? Ever tried looking up the word "loophole"? How about the phrase "inadequate background check"? I wonder how Seung-Hui Cho managed to buy a gun legally if people with mental problems are prevented from buying guns. Go read the form, professor. Was Cho adjudicated insane? Oh, I forgot - your liberal spidey-sense lets you know EVERYONE who might snap at any time in the future, doesn't it? My bad. Oddly enough, isn't this same sort of thing exactly what you're screaming about as unconstitutional in regards to the 1st, 4th and 5th amendments, professor? Funny how those chickens come home to roost, isn't it? We're not discussing unconstitutional laws, we're discussing LOOPHOLES in laws that have already passed constitutional muster, and poor or non-existent implementation of those laws. Loopholes that you and your ilk defend diligently because closing them might involve a slight inconvenience to you.. Again - PROVE IT. What loopholes would those be, professor? WHY haven't the heroic gun-grabbers closed them in the last , oh, 20 years? Spare me your "you and your ilk" rhetoric - show me the PROOF. SHOW ME where the NRA has "blocked" something.Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kallend 2,112 #64 August 4, 2008 Hey, I bet this gives you the warm fuzzies.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kallend 2,112 #65 August 4, 2008 Quote Again - PROVE IT. What loopholes would those be, professor? WHY haven't the heroic gun-grabbers closed them in the last , oh, 20 years? Lautenberg-Reed Bill (S2577): Senators Frank Lautenberg and Jack Reed introduced legislation [S. 2577] that would strengthen the criminal background check system by closing the gun show loophole. Currently, convicted felons, domestic violence abusers, and those who are dangerously mentally ill can walk into any gun show and buy weapons from unlicensed sellers without being stopped, no questions asked. And as for the NRA: www.commondreams.org/pressreleases/feb99/020299g.htm... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mnealtx 0 #66 August 4, 2008 QuoteQuote Again - PROVE IT. What loopholes would those be, professor? WHY haven't the heroic gun-grabbers closed them in the last , oh, 20 years? Lautenberg-Reed Bill (S2577): Senators Frank Lautenberg and Jack Reed introduced legislation [S. 2577] that would strengthen the criminal background check system by closing the gun show loophole. Currently, convicted felons, domestic violence abusers, and those who are dangerously mentally ill can walk into any gun show and buy weapons from unlicensed sellers without being stopped, no questions asked. And as for the NRA: www.commondreams.org/pressreleases/feb99/020299g.htm Private sales are NOT a "loophole" - try again. As for the common dreams link, perhaps you should look up the actual laws in regards in the NICS system - they are SUPPOSED to destroy the record, professor. Imagine that... the NRA telling the FBI to do what the law TELLS them to do!!!Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kallend 2,112 #67 August 4, 2008 Quote Quote Quote Again - PROVE IT. What loopholes would those be, professor? WHY haven't the heroic gun-grabbers closed them in the last , oh, 20 years? Lautenberg-Reed Bill (S2577): Senators Frank Lautenberg and Jack Reed introduced legislation [S. 2577] that would strengthen the criminal background check system by closing the gun show loophole. Currently, convicted felons, domestic violence abusers, and those who are dangerously mentally ill can walk into any gun show and buy weapons from unlicensed sellers without being stopped, no questions asked. And as for the NRA: www.commondreams.org/pressreleases/feb99/020299g.htm Private sales are NOT a "loophole" - try again. As for the common dreams link, perhaps you should look up the actual laws in regards in the NICS system - they are SUPPOSED to destroy the record, professor. Imagine that... the NRA telling the FBI to do what the law TELLS them to do!!! Thank you for making my point.Tell us again how the VA Tech shooter, known to the police to have mental stability problems, legally bought his guns in Virginia? Since 1968, individuals deemed mentally ill by the legal system are not supposed to be able to buy guns. A court's ordering Cho into treatment in late 2005 should have been reported to the federal background check system, congressional aides said. Instead, his background check came up clean, and he legally bought the two handguns used to kill 32 students and teachers before he committed suicide. "The states are not putting records into the system," McCarthy said yesterday. Washington Post 4/20/07... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mnealtx 0 #68 August 4, 2008 Quote Quote Quote Quote Again - PROVE IT. What loopholes would those be, professor? WHY haven't the heroic gun-grabbers closed them in the last , oh, 20 years? Lautenberg-Reed Bill (S2577): Senators Frank Lautenberg and Jack Reed introduced legislation [S. 2577] that would strengthen the criminal background check system by closing the gun show loophole. Currently, convicted felons, domestic violence abusers, and those who are dangerously mentally ill can walk into any gun show and buy weapons from unlicensed sellers without being stopped, no questions asked. And as for the NRA: www.commondreams.org/pressreleases/feb99/020299g.htm Private sales are NOT a "loophole" - try again. As for the common dreams link, perhaps you should look up the actual laws in regards in the NICS system - they are SUPPOSED to destroy the record, professor. Imagine that... the NRA telling the FBI to do what the law TELLS them to do!!! Thank you for making my point. Ah, so you agree that your "loophole" isn't a "loophole", then? Good - there may be hope for you yet. Do you agree that fed.gov should be in the middle of you selling your triumph to billvon? After all, cars kill many more people a year than guns, and there's no telling when someone may give in to road rage and plow into an elementary school playground.Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kallend 2,112 #69 August 4, 2008 Quote Quote Quote Quote Quote Again - PROVE IT. What loopholes would those be, professor? WHY haven't the heroic gun-grabbers closed them in the last , oh, 20 years? Lautenberg-Reed Bill (S2577): Senators Frank Lautenberg and Jack Reed introduced legislation [S. 2577] that would strengthen the criminal background check system by closing the gun show loophole. Currently, convicted felons, domestic violence abusers, and those who are dangerously mentally ill can walk into any gun show and buy weapons from unlicensed sellers without being stopped, no questions asked. And as for the NRA: www.commondreams.org/pressreleases/feb99/020299g.htm Private sales are NOT a "loophole" - try again. As for the common dreams link, perhaps you should look up the actual laws in regards in the NICS system - they are SUPPOSED to destroy the record, professor. Imagine that... the NRA telling the FBI to do what the law TELLS them to do!!! Thank you for making my point. Ah, so you agree that your "loophole" isn't a "loophole", then? Good - there may be hope for you yet. I'm disputing your definition of "loophole". Multiple gun control measures were introduced after the Columbine High School shootings eight years ago, but the NRA helped thwart them all, then helped defeat Vice President Al Gore's 2000 bid for the White House. With that in mind, Democratic leaders are anxious to bring the NRA aboard as they try to respond to this week's shootings. The gun lobby stayed relatively neutral during past efforts to pass the measure, but this time Dingell is pushing for an endorsement, or even for the NRA to make it a "key vote" for its supporters. McCarthy, whose husband was killed during a gunman's rampage on the Long Island Rail Road, admits her crusades for far more stringent gun control measures have made her toxic in gun circles. So Dingell is handling negotiations with the NRA, said an aide participating in those talks. Dingell is also in talks with Sens. Orrin G. Hatch (R-Utah) and Ted Stevens (R-Alaska), House Minority Leader John A. Boehner (R-Ohio) and Rep. F. James Sensenbrenner (Wis.), the senior Republican on the House Judiciary Committee. House Speaker Nancy Pelosi (D-Calif.) has asked Dingell to broker a deal by Tuesday. But the aide said Dingell and NRA negotiators are skeptical they can reach an accord that quickly. Washington Post 4/20/07... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kallend 2,112 #70 August 4, 2008 Tell us again how the VA Tech shooter, known to the police to have mental stability problems, legally bought his guns in Virginia?... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mnealtx 0 #71 August 4, 2008 QuoteTell us again how the VA Tech shooter, known to the police to have mental stability problems, legally bought his guns in Virginia? Tell us again how the "no guns on campus" rule stopped him? Tell us again how drunk driving laws have completely stopped all alcohol-related deaths on the highways? Tell us again how speed limit laws have resulted in cops no longer having to right tickets? TELL ME HOW *ANY* RESTRICTION WILL THWART SOMEONE WHO HAS DECIDED 'SOMEONE WILL DIE TODAY'.Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kelpdiver 2 #72 August 4, 2008 QuoteWe're not discussing unconstitutional laws, we're discussing LOOPHOLES in laws that have already passed constitutional muster, and poor or non-existent implementation of those laws. He was giving you a choice - if you want to insure that mentally suspect citizens won't violate the law and purchase handguns, you will need to eliminate any right to privacy with regards to medical records as most recently bolstered by HIPAA. This would also have a secondary effect of discouraging people from seeking care from mental health professionals, rightly fearing the records would damage their rights and their job. It would appear that Virginia was not following their own guidelines for records and might have prevented the sale if they had. This would be a fault of the state, not of the NRA or civil libertarians. Preventing the direct purchase of a firearm is only a minimal prevention step to these sort of shootings. The minors at Columbine obtained them thru a proxy, a girlfriend. She tried to blame the laws for allowing her to do so, but that's a lame defense at the crime she committed. What is clear that by denying students and teachers any legal defense, they were left to be killed. In the case of VT, that permitted two separate attacks. So...which civil rights are you interesting in taking away, today? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites rhys 0 #73 August 4, 2008 Quote : -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- In Reply To -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- If you seriously believe guns should be allowed to be carried at schools, your frontal lobe should be removed IMHO. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I used to carry a gun at school 5 days a week - why are you so terrified of a tool? Don't you mean; I used to carry a gun at school 5 days a week - why was I so terrified of school? only you can answer that question. I am not afraid of tools made of metal, I am afraid of 'tools' with red necks carrying guns, these tools like to use their tools, which scares me. From reading these forums it seems 'they' have simple minds and cant see the forest through all the trees. Dangerous minds!"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites rhys 0 #74 August 4, 2008 Quote Speaking of morons.... people wetting themselves at the mere mention of a gun provide boundless entertainment to those of us that can differentiate between a tool and it's user. Now, go off and wrap yourself in another layer of bubble-wrap and worry about whether your neighbors is going to come gouge your eyes out with a spoon (as terrified as you are about any weapon, I'm sure you don't have any knives in the house). I have never wet myself.... well maybe when I was a baby.... I have fired pistols and go hunting from time to time, i don't oppose guns fully. If I was the frightened little individual you make me out to be I wouldn't skydive, I wouldn'y fly a JVX 86, I wouldn't swoop, i wouldn't be a tandem instructor, I wouldn't snowboard off 30'+ rocks and I wouldn't travel the world. I would stay at home and practice using my gun just in case something happens to me. Carrying a gun around, especiallhy at school is probably one of the most cowardly things you could do.... you calling me scared...punk... go ahead, make my day.. "When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mnealtx 0 #75 August 4, 2008 QuoteDon't you mean; I used to carry a gun at school 5 days a week - why was I so terrified of school? Nope - I meant what I said. I wasn't terrified of school or anyone there, and nobody was terrified of me as I went to/from rifle team practice. QuoteI am not afraid of tools made of metal, I am afraid of 'tools' with red necks carrying guns, these tools like to use their tools, which scares me. Why are you so afraid someone is going to kill you? It must be terrible to live in such fear - I'm glad I don't. QuoteFrom reading these forums it seems 'they' have simple minds and cant see the forest through all the trees. Dangerous minds! That's exactly how I see the anti-2nd folks.Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 Next Page 3 of 13 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. 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birdlike 0 #52 August 4, 2008 QuoteIf you seriously believe guns should be allowed to be carried at schools, your frontal lobe should be removed IMHO. If you can look at what happened at Virginia Tech and still believe that a "no guns" policy has the ability to save lives; that evil people will drop their guns at the boundary of a "no guns zone"; that good people are safest when they have no means of fighting back; I think you should consider the lobotomy for yourself. Besides, it sounds like you want our frontal lobes removed so we'd be dumb enough to believe the anti-gun lunacy that you believe. Sorry, not willing to join you in that deep a delusion.Spirits fly on dangerous missions Imaginations on fire Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,112 #53 August 4, 2008 QuoteQuoteIf you seriously believe guns should be allowed to be carried at schools, your frontal lobe should be removed IMHO. If you can look at what happened at Virginia Tech The place where a guy with a history of mental problems used legally purchased guns (contrary to Mike's statement that loonies can't purchase guns) to massacre 33 people --- that is fact. The rest of your post is pure speculation and BS. PS afraid to enter your name and location in your profile?... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,112 #54 August 4, 2008 QuoteQuoteFascinating how you, JohnRich and others try to justify the USA having the highest homicide rate of all western industrial nations ... Fascinating how in order to make the U.S. look as bad as you want it to look, you have to limit the scope of comparison to "western industrialized nations." Easy - the USA is still a western industrial (first world) nation, despite George W. Bush's best efforts to reduce it to 3rd world status. If you need to compare the USA to Mexico and Jamaica to make it look good, you have already conceded that we have serious problems.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rhys 0 #55 August 4, 2008 Quote If you can look at what happened at Virginia Tech and still believe that a "no guns" policy has the ability to save lives; that evil people will drop their guns at the boundary of a "no guns zone"; that good people are safest when they have no means of fighting back; I think you should consider the lobotomy for yourself. pro gun morons thinking guns in school is a good idea, really don`t realise how stupid they sound. but morons will be morons............... "When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnealtx 0 #56 August 4, 2008 QuoteQuoteQuote Or are you going to go on your normal "madmen and criminals" rant that ignores the fact that mental patients and criminals CANNOT purchase weapons? You need to read the news more (not heard about the VA Tech shooting massacre?). Madmen and criminals are not SUPPOSED to be able to buy guns, but thanks to the diligent efforts of folks like you the laws are totally ineffective. You need to read, as well - start with the ACTUAL process of buying a gun and what is involved and you might actually have half a clue of what you babble on about. You may want to take a look at questions 12 (and sub-questions), HERE and tell me how gun owners are preventing guns from being bought by criminals and the insane. You want to bitch - go to the Brady people and demand to know why THEIR laws aren't being enforced.Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mnealtx 0 #57 August 4, 2008 QuoteQuoteOr are you going to go on your normal "madmen and criminals" rant that ignores the fact that mental patients and criminals CANNOT purchase weapons? I don't think that's actually true. I think quite a few mental patients and criminals have purchased weapons via the loopholes that exist in current law and attempts at closing those loopholes have been sometimes stymied by various pro-gun factions in the US. To be fair, the NRA has sometimes supported such legislation, but it seems to have a mixed bag of support in doing so as does the ACLU against it. http://www.jaapl.org/cgi/content/full/36/1/123 I do not know if (or how) mental patients are handled in the federal records system - I forsee the ACLU getting involved with that one under HIPPA laws, but that's just my guess. It's going to be a thorny problem to solve, that's for sure.Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mnealtx 0 #58 August 4, 2008 QuoteIf you seriously believe guns should be allowed to be carried at schools, your frontal lobe should be removed IMHO. I used to carry a gun at school 5 days a week - why are you so terrified of a tool?Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mnealtx 0 #59 August 4, 2008 Quote Quote If you can look at what happened at Virginia Tech and still believe that a "no guns" policy has the ability to save lives; that evil people will drop their guns at the boundary of a "no guns zone"; that good people are safest when they have no means of fighting back; I think you should consider the lobotomy for yourself. pro gun morons thinking guns in school is a good idea, really don`t realise how stupid they sound. but morons will be morons............... Speaking of morons.... people wetting themselves at the mere mention of a gun provide boundless entertainment to those of us that can differentiate between a tool and it's user. Now, go off and wrap yourself in another layer of bubble-wrap and worry about whether your neighbors is going to come gouge your eyes out with a spoon (as terrified as you are about any weapon, I'm sure you don't have any knives in the house).Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kallend 2,112 #60 August 4, 2008 QuoteQuoteQuoteQuote Or are you going to go on your normal "madmen and criminals" rant that ignores the fact that mental patients and criminals CANNOT purchase weapons? You need to read the news more (not heard about the VA Tech shooting massacre?). Madmen and criminals are not SUPPOSED to be able to buy guns, but thanks to the diligent efforts of folks like you the laws are totally ineffective. You need to read, as well - start with the ACTUAL process of buying a gun and what is involved and you might actually have half a clue of what you babble on about. You may want to take a look at questions 12 (and sub-questions), HERE and tell me how gun owners are preventing guns from being bought by criminals and the insane. You want to bitch - go to the Brady people and demand to know why THEIR laws aren't being enforced. "Their laws"? Don't you mean "Our laws"? Ever tried looking up the word "loophole"? How about the phrase "inadequate background check"? I wonder how Seung-Hui Cho managed to buy a gun legally if people with mental problems are prevented from buying guns.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mnealtx 0 #61 August 4, 2008 Quote"Their laws"? Don't you mean "Our laws"? Ever tried looking up the word "loophole"? How about the phrase "inadequate background check"? I wonder how Seung-Hui Cho managed to buy a gun legally if people with mental problems are prevented from buying guns. Go read the form, professor. Was Cho adjudicated insane? Oh, I forgot - your liberal spidey-sense lets you know EVERYONE who might snap at any time in the future, doesn't it? My bad. Oddly enough, isn't this same sort of thing exactly what you're screaming about as unconstitutional in regards to the 1st, 4th and 5th amendments, professor? Funny how those chickens come home to roost, isn't it?Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kallend 2,112 #62 August 4, 2008 QuoteQuote"Their laws"? Don't you mean "Our laws"? Ever tried looking up the word "loophole"? How about the phrase "inadequate background check"? I wonder how Seung-Hui Cho managed to buy a gun legally if people with mental problems are prevented from buying guns. Go read the form, professor. Was Cho adjudicated insane? Oh, I forgot - your liberal spidey-sense lets you know EVERYONE who might snap at any time in the future, doesn't it? My bad. Oddly enough, isn't this same sort of thing exactly what you're screaming about as unconstitutional in regards to the 1st, 4th and 5th amendments, professor? Funny how those chickens come home to roost, isn't it? We're not discussing unconstitutional laws, we're discussing LOOPHOLES in laws that have already passed constitutional muster, and poor or non-existent implementation of those laws. Loopholes that you and your ilk defend diligently because closing them might involve a slight inconvenience to you..... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mnealtx 0 #63 August 4, 2008 QuoteQuoteQuote"Their laws"? Don't you mean "Our laws"? Ever tried looking up the word "loophole"? How about the phrase "inadequate background check"? I wonder how Seung-Hui Cho managed to buy a gun legally if people with mental problems are prevented from buying guns. Go read the form, professor. Was Cho adjudicated insane? Oh, I forgot - your liberal spidey-sense lets you know EVERYONE who might snap at any time in the future, doesn't it? My bad. Oddly enough, isn't this same sort of thing exactly what you're screaming about as unconstitutional in regards to the 1st, 4th and 5th amendments, professor? Funny how those chickens come home to roost, isn't it? We're not discussing unconstitutional laws, we're discussing LOOPHOLES in laws that have already passed constitutional muster, and poor or non-existent implementation of those laws. Loopholes that you and your ilk defend diligently because closing them might involve a slight inconvenience to you.. Again - PROVE IT. What loopholes would those be, professor? WHY haven't the heroic gun-grabbers closed them in the last , oh, 20 years? Spare me your "you and your ilk" rhetoric - show me the PROOF. SHOW ME where the NRA has "blocked" something.Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kallend 2,112 #64 August 4, 2008 Hey, I bet this gives you the warm fuzzies.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kallend 2,112 #65 August 4, 2008 Quote Again - PROVE IT. What loopholes would those be, professor? WHY haven't the heroic gun-grabbers closed them in the last , oh, 20 years? Lautenberg-Reed Bill (S2577): Senators Frank Lautenberg and Jack Reed introduced legislation [S. 2577] that would strengthen the criminal background check system by closing the gun show loophole. Currently, convicted felons, domestic violence abusers, and those who are dangerously mentally ill can walk into any gun show and buy weapons from unlicensed sellers without being stopped, no questions asked. And as for the NRA: www.commondreams.org/pressreleases/feb99/020299g.htm... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mnealtx 0 #66 August 4, 2008 QuoteQuote Again - PROVE IT. What loopholes would those be, professor? WHY haven't the heroic gun-grabbers closed them in the last , oh, 20 years? Lautenberg-Reed Bill (S2577): Senators Frank Lautenberg and Jack Reed introduced legislation [S. 2577] that would strengthen the criminal background check system by closing the gun show loophole. Currently, convicted felons, domestic violence abusers, and those who are dangerously mentally ill can walk into any gun show and buy weapons from unlicensed sellers without being stopped, no questions asked. And as for the NRA: www.commondreams.org/pressreleases/feb99/020299g.htm Private sales are NOT a "loophole" - try again. As for the common dreams link, perhaps you should look up the actual laws in regards in the NICS system - they are SUPPOSED to destroy the record, professor. Imagine that... the NRA telling the FBI to do what the law TELLS them to do!!!Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kallend 2,112 #67 August 4, 2008 Quote Quote Quote Again - PROVE IT. What loopholes would those be, professor? WHY haven't the heroic gun-grabbers closed them in the last , oh, 20 years? Lautenberg-Reed Bill (S2577): Senators Frank Lautenberg and Jack Reed introduced legislation [S. 2577] that would strengthen the criminal background check system by closing the gun show loophole. Currently, convicted felons, domestic violence abusers, and those who are dangerously mentally ill can walk into any gun show and buy weapons from unlicensed sellers without being stopped, no questions asked. And as for the NRA: www.commondreams.org/pressreleases/feb99/020299g.htm Private sales are NOT a "loophole" - try again. As for the common dreams link, perhaps you should look up the actual laws in regards in the NICS system - they are SUPPOSED to destroy the record, professor. Imagine that... the NRA telling the FBI to do what the law TELLS them to do!!! Thank you for making my point.Tell us again how the VA Tech shooter, known to the police to have mental stability problems, legally bought his guns in Virginia? Since 1968, individuals deemed mentally ill by the legal system are not supposed to be able to buy guns. A court's ordering Cho into treatment in late 2005 should have been reported to the federal background check system, congressional aides said. Instead, his background check came up clean, and he legally bought the two handguns used to kill 32 students and teachers before he committed suicide. "The states are not putting records into the system," McCarthy said yesterday. Washington Post 4/20/07... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mnealtx 0 #68 August 4, 2008 Quote Quote Quote Quote Again - PROVE IT. What loopholes would those be, professor? WHY haven't the heroic gun-grabbers closed them in the last , oh, 20 years? Lautenberg-Reed Bill (S2577): Senators Frank Lautenberg and Jack Reed introduced legislation [S. 2577] that would strengthen the criminal background check system by closing the gun show loophole. Currently, convicted felons, domestic violence abusers, and those who are dangerously mentally ill can walk into any gun show and buy weapons from unlicensed sellers without being stopped, no questions asked. And as for the NRA: www.commondreams.org/pressreleases/feb99/020299g.htm Private sales are NOT a "loophole" - try again. As for the common dreams link, perhaps you should look up the actual laws in regards in the NICS system - they are SUPPOSED to destroy the record, professor. Imagine that... the NRA telling the FBI to do what the law TELLS them to do!!! Thank you for making my point. Ah, so you agree that your "loophole" isn't a "loophole", then? Good - there may be hope for you yet. Do you agree that fed.gov should be in the middle of you selling your triumph to billvon? After all, cars kill many more people a year than guns, and there's no telling when someone may give in to road rage and plow into an elementary school playground.Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kallend 2,112 #69 August 4, 2008 Quote Quote Quote Quote Quote Again - PROVE IT. What loopholes would those be, professor? WHY haven't the heroic gun-grabbers closed them in the last , oh, 20 years? Lautenberg-Reed Bill (S2577): Senators Frank Lautenberg and Jack Reed introduced legislation [S. 2577] that would strengthen the criminal background check system by closing the gun show loophole. Currently, convicted felons, domestic violence abusers, and those who are dangerously mentally ill can walk into any gun show and buy weapons from unlicensed sellers without being stopped, no questions asked. And as for the NRA: www.commondreams.org/pressreleases/feb99/020299g.htm Private sales are NOT a "loophole" - try again. As for the common dreams link, perhaps you should look up the actual laws in regards in the NICS system - they are SUPPOSED to destroy the record, professor. Imagine that... the NRA telling the FBI to do what the law TELLS them to do!!! Thank you for making my point. Ah, so you agree that your "loophole" isn't a "loophole", then? Good - there may be hope for you yet. I'm disputing your definition of "loophole". Multiple gun control measures were introduced after the Columbine High School shootings eight years ago, but the NRA helped thwart them all, then helped defeat Vice President Al Gore's 2000 bid for the White House. With that in mind, Democratic leaders are anxious to bring the NRA aboard as they try to respond to this week's shootings. The gun lobby stayed relatively neutral during past efforts to pass the measure, but this time Dingell is pushing for an endorsement, or even for the NRA to make it a "key vote" for its supporters. McCarthy, whose husband was killed during a gunman's rampage on the Long Island Rail Road, admits her crusades for far more stringent gun control measures have made her toxic in gun circles. So Dingell is handling negotiations with the NRA, said an aide participating in those talks. Dingell is also in talks with Sens. Orrin G. Hatch (R-Utah) and Ted Stevens (R-Alaska), House Minority Leader John A. Boehner (R-Ohio) and Rep. F. James Sensenbrenner (Wis.), the senior Republican on the House Judiciary Committee. House Speaker Nancy Pelosi (D-Calif.) has asked Dingell to broker a deal by Tuesday. But the aide said Dingell and NRA negotiators are skeptical they can reach an accord that quickly. Washington Post 4/20/07... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kallend 2,112 #70 August 4, 2008 Tell us again how the VA Tech shooter, known to the police to have mental stability problems, legally bought his guns in Virginia?... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mnealtx 0 #71 August 4, 2008 QuoteTell us again how the VA Tech shooter, known to the police to have mental stability problems, legally bought his guns in Virginia? Tell us again how the "no guns on campus" rule stopped him? Tell us again how drunk driving laws have completely stopped all alcohol-related deaths on the highways? Tell us again how speed limit laws have resulted in cops no longer having to right tickets? TELL ME HOW *ANY* RESTRICTION WILL THWART SOMEONE WHO HAS DECIDED 'SOMEONE WILL DIE TODAY'.Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kelpdiver 2 #72 August 4, 2008 QuoteWe're not discussing unconstitutional laws, we're discussing LOOPHOLES in laws that have already passed constitutional muster, and poor or non-existent implementation of those laws. He was giving you a choice - if you want to insure that mentally suspect citizens won't violate the law and purchase handguns, you will need to eliminate any right to privacy with regards to medical records as most recently bolstered by HIPAA. This would also have a secondary effect of discouraging people from seeking care from mental health professionals, rightly fearing the records would damage their rights and their job. It would appear that Virginia was not following their own guidelines for records and might have prevented the sale if they had. This would be a fault of the state, not of the NRA or civil libertarians. Preventing the direct purchase of a firearm is only a minimal prevention step to these sort of shootings. The minors at Columbine obtained them thru a proxy, a girlfriend. She tried to blame the laws for allowing her to do so, but that's a lame defense at the crime she committed. What is clear that by denying students and teachers any legal defense, they were left to be killed. In the case of VT, that permitted two separate attacks. So...which civil rights are you interesting in taking away, today? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites rhys 0 #73 August 4, 2008 Quote : -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- In Reply To -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- If you seriously believe guns should be allowed to be carried at schools, your frontal lobe should be removed IMHO. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I used to carry a gun at school 5 days a week - why are you so terrified of a tool? Don't you mean; I used to carry a gun at school 5 days a week - why was I so terrified of school? only you can answer that question. I am not afraid of tools made of metal, I am afraid of 'tools' with red necks carrying guns, these tools like to use their tools, which scares me. From reading these forums it seems 'they' have simple minds and cant see the forest through all the trees. Dangerous minds!"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites rhys 0 #74 August 4, 2008 Quote Speaking of morons.... people wetting themselves at the mere mention of a gun provide boundless entertainment to those of us that can differentiate between a tool and it's user. Now, go off and wrap yourself in another layer of bubble-wrap and worry about whether your neighbors is going to come gouge your eyes out with a spoon (as terrified as you are about any weapon, I'm sure you don't have any knives in the house). I have never wet myself.... well maybe when I was a baby.... I have fired pistols and go hunting from time to time, i don't oppose guns fully. If I was the frightened little individual you make me out to be I wouldn't skydive, I wouldn'y fly a JVX 86, I wouldn't swoop, i wouldn't be a tandem instructor, I wouldn't snowboard off 30'+ rocks and I wouldn't travel the world. I would stay at home and practice using my gun just in case something happens to me. Carrying a gun around, especiallhy at school is probably one of the most cowardly things you could do.... you calling me scared...punk... go ahead, make my day.. "When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mnealtx 0 #75 August 4, 2008 QuoteDon't you mean; I used to carry a gun at school 5 days a week - why was I so terrified of school? Nope - I meant what I said. I wasn't terrified of school or anyone there, and nobody was terrified of me as I went to/from rifle team practice. QuoteI am not afraid of tools made of metal, I am afraid of 'tools' with red necks carrying guns, these tools like to use their tools, which scares me. Why are you so afraid someone is going to kill you? It must be terrible to live in such fear - I'm glad I don't. QuoteFrom reading these forums it seems 'they' have simple minds and cant see the forest through all the trees. Dangerous minds! That's exactly how I see the anti-2nd folks.Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 Next Page 3 of 13 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. 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mnealtx 0 #57 August 4, 2008 QuoteQuoteOr are you going to go on your normal "madmen and criminals" rant that ignores the fact that mental patients and criminals CANNOT purchase weapons? I don't think that's actually true. I think quite a few mental patients and criminals have purchased weapons via the loopholes that exist in current law and attempts at closing those loopholes have been sometimes stymied by various pro-gun factions in the US. To be fair, the NRA has sometimes supported such legislation, but it seems to have a mixed bag of support in doing so as does the ACLU against it. http://www.jaapl.org/cgi/content/full/36/1/123 I do not know if (or how) mental patients are handled in the federal records system - I forsee the ACLU getting involved with that one under HIPPA laws, but that's just my guess. It's going to be a thorny problem to solve, that's for sure.Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnealtx 0 #58 August 4, 2008 QuoteIf you seriously believe guns should be allowed to be carried at schools, your frontal lobe should be removed IMHO. I used to carry a gun at school 5 days a week - why are you so terrified of a tool?Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnealtx 0 #59 August 4, 2008 Quote Quote If you can look at what happened at Virginia Tech and still believe that a "no guns" policy has the ability to save lives; that evil people will drop their guns at the boundary of a "no guns zone"; that good people are safest when they have no means of fighting back; I think you should consider the lobotomy for yourself. pro gun morons thinking guns in school is a good idea, really don`t realise how stupid they sound. but morons will be morons............... Speaking of morons.... people wetting themselves at the mere mention of a gun provide boundless entertainment to those of us that can differentiate between a tool and it's user. Now, go off and wrap yourself in another layer of bubble-wrap and worry about whether your neighbors is going to come gouge your eyes out with a spoon (as terrified as you are about any weapon, I'm sure you don't have any knives in the house).Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,112 #60 August 4, 2008 QuoteQuoteQuoteQuote Or are you going to go on your normal "madmen and criminals" rant that ignores the fact that mental patients and criminals CANNOT purchase weapons? You need to read the news more (not heard about the VA Tech shooting massacre?). Madmen and criminals are not SUPPOSED to be able to buy guns, but thanks to the diligent efforts of folks like you the laws are totally ineffective. You need to read, as well - start with the ACTUAL process of buying a gun and what is involved and you might actually have half a clue of what you babble on about. You may want to take a look at questions 12 (and sub-questions), HERE and tell me how gun owners are preventing guns from being bought by criminals and the insane. You want to bitch - go to the Brady people and demand to know why THEIR laws aren't being enforced. "Their laws"? Don't you mean "Our laws"? Ever tried looking up the word "loophole"? How about the phrase "inadequate background check"? I wonder how Seung-Hui Cho managed to buy a gun legally if people with mental problems are prevented from buying guns.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mnealtx 0 #61 August 4, 2008 Quote"Their laws"? Don't you mean "Our laws"? Ever tried looking up the word "loophole"? How about the phrase "inadequate background check"? I wonder how Seung-Hui Cho managed to buy a gun legally if people with mental problems are prevented from buying guns. Go read the form, professor. Was Cho adjudicated insane? Oh, I forgot - your liberal spidey-sense lets you know EVERYONE who might snap at any time in the future, doesn't it? My bad. Oddly enough, isn't this same sort of thing exactly what you're screaming about as unconstitutional in regards to the 1st, 4th and 5th amendments, professor? Funny how those chickens come home to roost, isn't it?Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kallend 2,112 #62 August 4, 2008 QuoteQuote"Their laws"? Don't you mean "Our laws"? Ever tried looking up the word "loophole"? How about the phrase "inadequate background check"? I wonder how Seung-Hui Cho managed to buy a gun legally if people with mental problems are prevented from buying guns. Go read the form, professor. Was Cho adjudicated insane? Oh, I forgot - your liberal spidey-sense lets you know EVERYONE who might snap at any time in the future, doesn't it? My bad. Oddly enough, isn't this same sort of thing exactly what you're screaming about as unconstitutional in regards to the 1st, 4th and 5th amendments, professor? Funny how those chickens come home to roost, isn't it? We're not discussing unconstitutional laws, we're discussing LOOPHOLES in laws that have already passed constitutional muster, and poor or non-existent implementation of those laws. Loopholes that you and your ilk defend diligently because closing them might involve a slight inconvenience to you..... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mnealtx 0 #63 August 4, 2008 QuoteQuoteQuote"Their laws"? Don't you mean "Our laws"? Ever tried looking up the word "loophole"? How about the phrase "inadequate background check"? I wonder how Seung-Hui Cho managed to buy a gun legally if people with mental problems are prevented from buying guns. Go read the form, professor. Was Cho adjudicated insane? Oh, I forgot - your liberal spidey-sense lets you know EVERYONE who might snap at any time in the future, doesn't it? My bad. Oddly enough, isn't this same sort of thing exactly what you're screaming about as unconstitutional in regards to the 1st, 4th and 5th amendments, professor? Funny how those chickens come home to roost, isn't it? We're not discussing unconstitutional laws, we're discussing LOOPHOLES in laws that have already passed constitutional muster, and poor or non-existent implementation of those laws. Loopholes that you and your ilk defend diligently because closing them might involve a slight inconvenience to you.. Again - PROVE IT. What loopholes would those be, professor? WHY haven't the heroic gun-grabbers closed them in the last , oh, 20 years? Spare me your "you and your ilk" rhetoric - show me the PROOF. SHOW ME where the NRA has "blocked" something.Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kallend 2,112 #64 August 4, 2008 Hey, I bet this gives you the warm fuzzies.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kallend 2,112 #65 August 4, 2008 Quote Again - PROVE IT. What loopholes would those be, professor? WHY haven't the heroic gun-grabbers closed them in the last , oh, 20 years? Lautenberg-Reed Bill (S2577): Senators Frank Lautenberg and Jack Reed introduced legislation [S. 2577] that would strengthen the criminal background check system by closing the gun show loophole. Currently, convicted felons, domestic violence abusers, and those who are dangerously mentally ill can walk into any gun show and buy weapons from unlicensed sellers without being stopped, no questions asked. And as for the NRA: www.commondreams.org/pressreleases/feb99/020299g.htm... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mnealtx 0 #66 August 4, 2008 QuoteQuote Again - PROVE IT. What loopholes would those be, professor? WHY haven't the heroic gun-grabbers closed them in the last , oh, 20 years? Lautenberg-Reed Bill (S2577): Senators Frank Lautenberg and Jack Reed introduced legislation [S. 2577] that would strengthen the criminal background check system by closing the gun show loophole. Currently, convicted felons, domestic violence abusers, and those who are dangerously mentally ill can walk into any gun show and buy weapons from unlicensed sellers without being stopped, no questions asked. And as for the NRA: www.commondreams.org/pressreleases/feb99/020299g.htm Private sales are NOT a "loophole" - try again. As for the common dreams link, perhaps you should look up the actual laws in regards in the NICS system - they are SUPPOSED to destroy the record, professor. Imagine that... the NRA telling the FBI to do what the law TELLS them to do!!!Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kallend 2,112 #67 August 4, 2008 Quote Quote Quote Again - PROVE IT. What loopholes would those be, professor? WHY haven't the heroic gun-grabbers closed them in the last , oh, 20 years? Lautenberg-Reed Bill (S2577): Senators Frank Lautenberg and Jack Reed introduced legislation [S. 2577] that would strengthen the criminal background check system by closing the gun show loophole. Currently, convicted felons, domestic violence abusers, and those who are dangerously mentally ill can walk into any gun show and buy weapons from unlicensed sellers without being stopped, no questions asked. And as for the NRA: www.commondreams.org/pressreleases/feb99/020299g.htm Private sales are NOT a "loophole" - try again. As for the common dreams link, perhaps you should look up the actual laws in regards in the NICS system - they are SUPPOSED to destroy the record, professor. Imagine that... the NRA telling the FBI to do what the law TELLS them to do!!! Thank you for making my point.Tell us again how the VA Tech shooter, known to the police to have mental stability problems, legally bought his guns in Virginia? Since 1968, individuals deemed mentally ill by the legal system are not supposed to be able to buy guns. A court's ordering Cho into treatment in late 2005 should have been reported to the federal background check system, congressional aides said. Instead, his background check came up clean, and he legally bought the two handguns used to kill 32 students and teachers before he committed suicide. "The states are not putting records into the system," McCarthy said yesterday. Washington Post 4/20/07... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mnealtx 0 #68 August 4, 2008 Quote Quote Quote Quote Again - PROVE IT. What loopholes would those be, professor? WHY haven't the heroic gun-grabbers closed them in the last , oh, 20 years? Lautenberg-Reed Bill (S2577): Senators Frank Lautenberg and Jack Reed introduced legislation [S. 2577] that would strengthen the criminal background check system by closing the gun show loophole. Currently, convicted felons, domestic violence abusers, and those who are dangerously mentally ill can walk into any gun show and buy weapons from unlicensed sellers without being stopped, no questions asked. And as for the NRA: www.commondreams.org/pressreleases/feb99/020299g.htm Private sales are NOT a "loophole" - try again. As for the common dreams link, perhaps you should look up the actual laws in regards in the NICS system - they are SUPPOSED to destroy the record, professor. Imagine that... the NRA telling the FBI to do what the law TELLS them to do!!! Thank you for making my point. Ah, so you agree that your "loophole" isn't a "loophole", then? Good - there may be hope for you yet. Do you agree that fed.gov should be in the middle of you selling your triumph to billvon? After all, cars kill many more people a year than guns, and there's no telling when someone may give in to road rage and plow into an elementary school playground.Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kallend 2,112 #69 August 4, 2008 Quote Quote Quote Quote Quote Again - PROVE IT. What loopholes would those be, professor? WHY haven't the heroic gun-grabbers closed them in the last , oh, 20 years? Lautenberg-Reed Bill (S2577): Senators Frank Lautenberg and Jack Reed introduced legislation [S. 2577] that would strengthen the criminal background check system by closing the gun show loophole. Currently, convicted felons, domestic violence abusers, and those who are dangerously mentally ill can walk into any gun show and buy weapons from unlicensed sellers without being stopped, no questions asked. And as for the NRA: www.commondreams.org/pressreleases/feb99/020299g.htm Private sales are NOT a "loophole" - try again. As for the common dreams link, perhaps you should look up the actual laws in regards in the NICS system - they are SUPPOSED to destroy the record, professor. Imagine that... the NRA telling the FBI to do what the law TELLS them to do!!! Thank you for making my point. Ah, so you agree that your "loophole" isn't a "loophole", then? Good - there may be hope for you yet. I'm disputing your definition of "loophole". Multiple gun control measures were introduced after the Columbine High School shootings eight years ago, but the NRA helped thwart them all, then helped defeat Vice President Al Gore's 2000 bid for the White House. With that in mind, Democratic leaders are anxious to bring the NRA aboard as they try to respond to this week's shootings. The gun lobby stayed relatively neutral during past efforts to pass the measure, but this time Dingell is pushing for an endorsement, or even for the NRA to make it a "key vote" for its supporters. McCarthy, whose husband was killed during a gunman's rampage on the Long Island Rail Road, admits her crusades for far more stringent gun control measures have made her toxic in gun circles. So Dingell is handling negotiations with the NRA, said an aide participating in those talks. Dingell is also in talks with Sens. Orrin G. Hatch (R-Utah) and Ted Stevens (R-Alaska), House Minority Leader John A. Boehner (R-Ohio) and Rep. F. James Sensenbrenner (Wis.), the senior Republican on the House Judiciary Committee. House Speaker Nancy Pelosi (D-Calif.) has asked Dingell to broker a deal by Tuesday. But the aide said Dingell and NRA negotiators are skeptical they can reach an accord that quickly. Washington Post 4/20/07... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kallend 2,112 #70 August 4, 2008 Tell us again how the VA Tech shooter, known to the police to have mental stability problems, legally bought his guns in Virginia?... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mnealtx 0 #71 August 4, 2008 QuoteTell us again how the VA Tech shooter, known to the police to have mental stability problems, legally bought his guns in Virginia? Tell us again how the "no guns on campus" rule stopped him? Tell us again how drunk driving laws have completely stopped all alcohol-related deaths on the highways? Tell us again how speed limit laws have resulted in cops no longer having to right tickets? TELL ME HOW *ANY* RESTRICTION WILL THWART SOMEONE WHO HAS DECIDED 'SOMEONE WILL DIE TODAY'.Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kelpdiver 2 #72 August 4, 2008 QuoteWe're not discussing unconstitutional laws, we're discussing LOOPHOLES in laws that have already passed constitutional muster, and poor or non-existent implementation of those laws. He was giving you a choice - if you want to insure that mentally suspect citizens won't violate the law and purchase handguns, you will need to eliminate any right to privacy with regards to medical records as most recently bolstered by HIPAA. This would also have a secondary effect of discouraging people from seeking care from mental health professionals, rightly fearing the records would damage their rights and their job. It would appear that Virginia was not following their own guidelines for records and might have prevented the sale if they had. This would be a fault of the state, not of the NRA or civil libertarians. Preventing the direct purchase of a firearm is only a minimal prevention step to these sort of shootings. The minors at Columbine obtained them thru a proxy, a girlfriend. She tried to blame the laws for allowing her to do so, but that's a lame defense at the crime she committed. What is clear that by denying students and teachers any legal defense, they were left to be killed. In the case of VT, that permitted two separate attacks. So...which civil rights are you interesting in taking away, today? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites rhys 0 #73 August 4, 2008 Quote : -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- In Reply To -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- If you seriously believe guns should be allowed to be carried at schools, your frontal lobe should be removed IMHO. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I used to carry a gun at school 5 days a week - why are you so terrified of a tool? Don't you mean; I used to carry a gun at school 5 days a week - why was I so terrified of school? only you can answer that question. I am not afraid of tools made of metal, I am afraid of 'tools' with red necks carrying guns, these tools like to use their tools, which scares me. From reading these forums it seems 'they' have simple minds and cant see the forest through all the trees. Dangerous minds!"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites rhys 0 #74 August 4, 2008 Quote Speaking of morons.... people wetting themselves at the mere mention of a gun provide boundless entertainment to those of us that can differentiate between a tool and it's user. Now, go off and wrap yourself in another layer of bubble-wrap and worry about whether your neighbors is going to come gouge your eyes out with a spoon (as terrified as you are about any weapon, I'm sure you don't have any knives in the house). I have never wet myself.... well maybe when I was a baby.... I have fired pistols and go hunting from time to time, i don't oppose guns fully. If I was the frightened little individual you make me out to be I wouldn't skydive, I wouldn'y fly a JVX 86, I wouldn't swoop, i wouldn't be a tandem instructor, I wouldn't snowboard off 30'+ rocks and I wouldn't travel the world. I would stay at home and practice using my gun just in case something happens to me. Carrying a gun around, especiallhy at school is probably one of the most cowardly things you could do.... you calling me scared...punk... go ahead, make my day.. "When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mnealtx 0 #75 August 4, 2008 QuoteDon't you mean; I used to carry a gun at school 5 days a week - why was I so terrified of school? Nope - I meant what I said. I wasn't terrified of school or anyone there, and nobody was terrified of me as I went to/from rifle team practice. QuoteI am not afraid of tools made of metal, I am afraid of 'tools' with red necks carrying guns, these tools like to use their tools, which scares me. Why are you so afraid someone is going to kill you? It must be terrible to live in such fear - I'm glad I don't. QuoteFrom reading these forums it seems 'they' have simple minds and cant see the forest through all the trees. Dangerous minds! That's exactly how I see the anti-2nd folks.Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 Next Page 3 of 13 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. 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mnealtx 0 #61 August 4, 2008 Quote"Their laws"? Don't you mean "Our laws"? Ever tried looking up the word "loophole"? How about the phrase "inadequate background check"? I wonder how Seung-Hui Cho managed to buy a gun legally if people with mental problems are prevented from buying guns. Go read the form, professor. Was Cho adjudicated insane? Oh, I forgot - your liberal spidey-sense lets you know EVERYONE who might snap at any time in the future, doesn't it? My bad. Oddly enough, isn't this same sort of thing exactly what you're screaming about as unconstitutional in regards to the 1st, 4th and 5th amendments, professor? Funny how those chickens come home to roost, isn't it?Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,112 #62 August 4, 2008 QuoteQuote"Their laws"? Don't you mean "Our laws"? Ever tried looking up the word "loophole"? How about the phrase "inadequate background check"? I wonder how Seung-Hui Cho managed to buy a gun legally if people with mental problems are prevented from buying guns. Go read the form, professor. Was Cho adjudicated insane? Oh, I forgot - your liberal spidey-sense lets you know EVERYONE who might snap at any time in the future, doesn't it? My bad. Oddly enough, isn't this same sort of thing exactly what you're screaming about as unconstitutional in regards to the 1st, 4th and 5th amendments, professor? Funny how those chickens come home to roost, isn't it? We're not discussing unconstitutional laws, we're discussing LOOPHOLES in laws that have already passed constitutional muster, and poor or non-existent implementation of those laws. Loopholes that you and your ilk defend diligently because closing them might involve a slight inconvenience to you..... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnealtx 0 #63 August 4, 2008 QuoteQuoteQuote"Their laws"? Don't you mean "Our laws"? Ever tried looking up the word "loophole"? How about the phrase "inadequate background check"? I wonder how Seung-Hui Cho managed to buy a gun legally if people with mental problems are prevented from buying guns. Go read the form, professor. Was Cho adjudicated insane? Oh, I forgot - your liberal spidey-sense lets you know EVERYONE who might snap at any time in the future, doesn't it? My bad. Oddly enough, isn't this same sort of thing exactly what you're screaming about as unconstitutional in regards to the 1st, 4th and 5th amendments, professor? Funny how those chickens come home to roost, isn't it? We're not discussing unconstitutional laws, we're discussing LOOPHOLES in laws that have already passed constitutional muster, and poor or non-existent implementation of those laws. Loopholes that you and your ilk defend diligently because closing them might involve a slight inconvenience to you.. Again - PROVE IT. What loopholes would those be, professor? WHY haven't the heroic gun-grabbers closed them in the last , oh, 20 years? Spare me your "you and your ilk" rhetoric - show me the PROOF. SHOW ME where the NRA has "blocked" something.Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,112 #64 August 4, 2008 Hey, I bet this gives you the warm fuzzies.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,112 #65 August 4, 2008 Quote Again - PROVE IT. What loopholes would those be, professor? WHY haven't the heroic gun-grabbers closed them in the last , oh, 20 years? Lautenberg-Reed Bill (S2577): Senators Frank Lautenberg and Jack Reed introduced legislation [S. 2577] that would strengthen the criminal background check system by closing the gun show loophole. Currently, convicted felons, domestic violence abusers, and those who are dangerously mentally ill can walk into any gun show and buy weapons from unlicensed sellers without being stopped, no questions asked. And as for the NRA: www.commondreams.org/pressreleases/feb99/020299g.htm... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnealtx 0 #66 August 4, 2008 QuoteQuote Again - PROVE IT. What loopholes would those be, professor? WHY haven't the heroic gun-grabbers closed them in the last , oh, 20 years? Lautenberg-Reed Bill (S2577): Senators Frank Lautenberg and Jack Reed introduced legislation [S. 2577] that would strengthen the criminal background check system by closing the gun show loophole. Currently, convicted felons, domestic violence abusers, and those who are dangerously mentally ill can walk into any gun show and buy weapons from unlicensed sellers without being stopped, no questions asked. And as for the NRA: www.commondreams.org/pressreleases/feb99/020299g.htm Private sales are NOT a "loophole" - try again. As for the common dreams link, perhaps you should look up the actual laws in regards in the NICS system - they are SUPPOSED to destroy the record, professor. Imagine that... the NRA telling the FBI to do what the law TELLS them to do!!!Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,112 #67 August 4, 2008 Quote Quote Quote Again - PROVE IT. What loopholes would those be, professor? WHY haven't the heroic gun-grabbers closed them in the last , oh, 20 years? Lautenberg-Reed Bill (S2577): Senators Frank Lautenberg and Jack Reed introduced legislation [S. 2577] that would strengthen the criminal background check system by closing the gun show loophole. Currently, convicted felons, domestic violence abusers, and those who are dangerously mentally ill can walk into any gun show and buy weapons from unlicensed sellers without being stopped, no questions asked. And as for the NRA: www.commondreams.org/pressreleases/feb99/020299g.htm Private sales are NOT a "loophole" - try again. As for the common dreams link, perhaps you should look up the actual laws in regards in the NICS system - they are SUPPOSED to destroy the record, professor. Imagine that... the NRA telling the FBI to do what the law TELLS them to do!!! Thank you for making my point.Tell us again how the VA Tech shooter, known to the police to have mental stability problems, legally bought his guns in Virginia? Since 1968, individuals deemed mentally ill by the legal system are not supposed to be able to buy guns. A court's ordering Cho into treatment in late 2005 should have been reported to the federal background check system, congressional aides said. Instead, his background check came up clean, and he legally bought the two handguns used to kill 32 students and teachers before he committed suicide. "The states are not putting records into the system," McCarthy said yesterday. Washington Post 4/20/07... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnealtx 0 #68 August 4, 2008 Quote Quote Quote Quote Again - PROVE IT. What loopholes would those be, professor? WHY haven't the heroic gun-grabbers closed them in the last , oh, 20 years? Lautenberg-Reed Bill (S2577): Senators Frank Lautenberg and Jack Reed introduced legislation [S. 2577] that would strengthen the criminal background check system by closing the gun show loophole. Currently, convicted felons, domestic violence abusers, and those who are dangerously mentally ill can walk into any gun show and buy weapons from unlicensed sellers without being stopped, no questions asked. And as for the NRA: www.commondreams.org/pressreleases/feb99/020299g.htm Private sales are NOT a "loophole" - try again. As for the common dreams link, perhaps you should look up the actual laws in regards in the NICS system - they are SUPPOSED to destroy the record, professor. Imagine that... the NRA telling the FBI to do what the law TELLS them to do!!! Thank you for making my point. Ah, so you agree that your "loophole" isn't a "loophole", then? Good - there may be hope for you yet. Do you agree that fed.gov should be in the middle of you selling your triumph to billvon? After all, cars kill many more people a year than guns, and there's no telling when someone may give in to road rage and plow into an elementary school playground.Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,112 #69 August 4, 2008 Quote Quote Quote Quote Quote Again - PROVE IT. What loopholes would those be, professor? WHY haven't the heroic gun-grabbers closed them in the last , oh, 20 years? Lautenberg-Reed Bill (S2577): Senators Frank Lautenberg and Jack Reed introduced legislation [S. 2577] that would strengthen the criminal background check system by closing the gun show loophole. Currently, convicted felons, domestic violence abusers, and those who are dangerously mentally ill can walk into any gun show and buy weapons from unlicensed sellers without being stopped, no questions asked. And as for the NRA: www.commondreams.org/pressreleases/feb99/020299g.htm Private sales are NOT a "loophole" - try again. As for the common dreams link, perhaps you should look up the actual laws in regards in the NICS system - they are SUPPOSED to destroy the record, professor. Imagine that... the NRA telling the FBI to do what the law TELLS them to do!!! Thank you for making my point. Ah, so you agree that your "loophole" isn't a "loophole", then? Good - there may be hope for you yet. I'm disputing your definition of "loophole". Multiple gun control measures were introduced after the Columbine High School shootings eight years ago, but the NRA helped thwart them all, then helped defeat Vice President Al Gore's 2000 bid for the White House. With that in mind, Democratic leaders are anxious to bring the NRA aboard as they try to respond to this week's shootings. The gun lobby stayed relatively neutral during past efforts to pass the measure, but this time Dingell is pushing for an endorsement, or even for the NRA to make it a "key vote" for its supporters. McCarthy, whose husband was killed during a gunman's rampage on the Long Island Rail Road, admits her crusades for far more stringent gun control measures have made her toxic in gun circles. So Dingell is handling negotiations with the NRA, said an aide participating in those talks. Dingell is also in talks with Sens. Orrin G. Hatch (R-Utah) and Ted Stevens (R-Alaska), House Minority Leader John A. Boehner (R-Ohio) and Rep. F. James Sensenbrenner (Wis.), the senior Republican on the House Judiciary Committee. House Speaker Nancy Pelosi (D-Calif.) has asked Dingell to broker a deal by Tuesday. But the aide said Dingell and NRA negotiators are skeptical they can reach an accord that quickly. Washington Post 4/20/07... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,112 #70 August 4, 2008 Tell us again how the VA Tech shooter, known to the police to have mental stability problems, legally bought his guns in Virginia?... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnealtx 0 #71 August 4, 2008 QuoteTell us again how the VA Tech shooter, known to the police to have mental stability problems, legally bought his guns in Virginia? Tell us again how the "no guns on campus" rule stopped him? Tell us again how drunk driving laws have completely stopped all alcohol-related deaths on the highways? Tell us again how speed limit laws have resulted in cops no longer having to right tickets? TELL ME HOW *ANY* RESTRICTION WILL THWART SOMEONE WHO HAS DECIDED 'SOMEONE WILL DIE TODAY'.Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #72 August 4, 2008 QuoteWe're not discussing unconstitutional laws, we're discussing LOOPHOLES in laws that have already passed constitutional muster, and poor or non-existent implementation of those laws. He was giving you a choice - if you want to insure that mentally suspect citizens won't violate the law and purchase handguns, you will need to eliminate any right to privacy with regards to medical records as most recently bolstered by HIPAA. This would also have a secondary effect of discouraging people from seeking care from mental health professionals, rightly fearing the records would damage their rights and their job. It would appear that Virginia was not following their own guidelines for records and might have prevented the sale if they had. This would be a fault of the state, not of the NRA or civil libertarians. Preventing the direct purchase of a firearm is only a minimal prevention step to these sort of shootings. The minors at Columbine obtained them thru a proxy, a girlfriend. She tried to blame the laws for allowing her to do so, but that's a lame defense at the crime she committed. What is clear that by denying students and teachers any legal defense, they were left to be killed. In the case of VT, that permitted two separate attacks. So...which civil rights are you interesting in taking away, today? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rhys 0 #73 August 4, 2008 Quote : -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- In Reply To -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- If you seriously believe guns should be allowed to be carried at schools, your frontal lobe should be removed IMHO. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I used to carry a gun at school 5 days a week - why are you so terrified of a tool? Don't you mean; I used to carry a gun at school 5 days a week - why was I so terrified of school? only you can answer that question. I am not afraid of tools made of metal, I am afraid of 'tools' with red necks carrying guns, these tools like to use their tools, which scares me. From reading these forums it seems 'they' have simple minds and cant see the forest through all the trees. Dangerous minds!"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rhys 0 #74 August 4, 2008 Quote Speaking of morons.... people wetting themselves at the mere mention of a gun provide boundless entertainment to those of us that can differentiate between a tool and it's user. Now, go off and wrap yourself in another layer of bubble-wrap and worry about whether your neighbors is going to come gouge your eyes out with a spoon (as terrified as you are about any weapon, I'm sure you don't have any knives in the house). I have never wet myself.... well maybe when I was a baby.... I have fired pistols and go hunting from time to time, i don't oppose guns fully. If I was the frightened little individual you make me out to be I wouldn't skydive, I wouldn'y fly a JVX 86, I wouldn't swoop, i wouldn't be a tandem instructor, I wouldn't snowboard off 30'+ rocks and I wouldn't travel the world. I would stay at home and practice using my gun just in case something happens to me. Carrying a gun around, especiallhy at school is probably one of the most cowardly things you could do.... you calling me scared...punk... go ahead, make my day.. "When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnealtx 0 #75 August 4, 2008 QuoteDon't you mean; I used to carry a gun at school 5 days a week - why was I so terrified of school? Nope - I meant what I said. I wasn't terrified of school or anyone there, and nobody was terrified of me as I went to/from rifle team practice. QuoteI am not afraid of tools made of metal, I am afraid of 'tools' with red necks carrying guns, these tools like to use their tools, which scares me. Why are you so afraid someone is going to kill you? It must be terrible to live in such fear - I'm glad I don't. QuoteFrom reading these forums it seems 'they' have simple minds and cant see the forest through all the trees. Dangerous minds! That's exactly how I see the anti-2nd folks.Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
