You/your s/o's fetus tests positive for Down Syndrome - Do you abort?

[ianmdrennan 2]

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There is more genuine LOVE in my granddaughter that any other of your "normal" humans anywhere.

Bill, trust me when I say I really hate to agree with you on anything BUT I too know what you mean.

My, albeit, limited experience with DS children has shown an innocence, and a love in them, that's rarely ever found in regular folk.

Ian

Performance Designs Factory Team

[chuteless 1]

I am sure we agree on other things....like Skydiving is a great sport,

[airdvr 210]

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As long as her Aunt , and several others are alive, she will never be placed in a home.

I do not understand your comment abou a 10 yr old wanting a Downs child. that just doesnt make sense.

My other daughter says that if she coul;d be sure to have a Downs baby, she would get pregnant today. I thought you were referring to a 10yo making that statement.

I just saw my Lindsay, and she was so full of love, its something you never see in "normal " people. I hate to walk away from her to do other things. I wish she was mine to raise, but being the grandfather, is the best I can hope for. My daughter Crystal also wishes that Lindsay belonged to her.
I have 5 other grandchildern, but Lindsay is so special, I cannot even find the words to tell you.

There are different levels of Downs, and I am sure you know that. Some do have extra requirements. I am not arfguing that point, but for my Lindsay, I can assure you, she will never be placed in any home for Downs people.

Please don't dent the planet.

Destinations by Roxanne

[ianmdrennan 2]

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I am sure we agree on other things....like Skydiving is a great sport,

Touche'

Performance Designs Factory Team

[chuteless 1]

No.....my other daughter Crystal has 3 children of her own, but wishes Lindsay was also hers.

Crystal is a bit more than 10 yrs old...like 27.

[Conundrum 1]

You keep saying that children with DS are blessings, but what about all the children who don't have DS? Are they not blessings? Or just not as good of a blessing...?

[chuteless 1]

Of course they are blessings....but In my opinion, God has given a special blessing to those who have a DS child.

In my 1 bedroom apartment, I have four walls in my living room, three of them are photo displays of 5 of my grandchildren,and the largest one is reserved for Lindsay. Amid the more than 160 photos of Lindsay is the following poem.

I think it tells of the love we have:

Lindsay loves Bampa loves Lindsay

I know I'm just a little girl
And I don't know a lot.
I have a handicap you see,
Downs Syndrome's what I've got.
I may not have the smarts you have,
But I will rise above,
My tiny body isn't strong
But its sure full of love.

I'm told that I am special
And I sometimes wonder why,
Some people treat me very mean
And sometimes make me cry.
I try to do the best I can
My best is all I've got,
But Bampa treats me special
And I sure love him a lot.

There is one person that I love
And Bampa is his name,
I love to go to Bampa's house
Where we can play a game.
Its hide and seek, or Dance and sing
And after counting ten,
I find my Bampa hiding
And then I hide on him.

When Bampa claps his hands for me
He gets slapped on his head.
I'm laughing hard, it so much fun
Cause Bampa's face gets red.
What joy it is when I'm allowed
At Bampa's house to go,
I love it when he holds me tight
And I hope he won't let go.

Two hearts with one great love between them!!!


You cannot know what love is until you have helped a Downs Syndrome child grow.

[Darius11 12]

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Thanks for the Sexed

but my point was when do cells become life?

Some believe life start at the moment of conception, some believe it is after the first trimester, some don’t care if the baby is near due.

The point is for it to be a crime it is not based on your personal belief or mine. We have no way of determining when life begins.

If you do consider any group of cells life then back to my original post we will go.

I can tell you the exact instance I believe life starts. It is when the sperm meets the egg and it begins to reproduce.

What is the exact moment between the first and second, or second and third trimester that makes it, at the instant, a baby?

If there is not one (and there is not) life starts at conception.

Some people argue that if it can not survive outside of the mother, it is not a baby, but what 1 month old can live without any assistance (feeding and shelter) outside of the mother.

What is the difference between killing a baby the day before it is due and throwing it in a dumpster 5 minutes after it is born?

Life starts at conception. Ending that life on purpose is premeditated murder in my eyes. I understand that miscarrages (unintentional) happen and that is a shame, but so do things like Sudden Infant Death Syndrom and that is a shame to.

Don't take a childs life on purpose. Your killing someone and there are loads of people waiting to adopt that life inside of you.

edited to add
Do you honestly believe a fetus that you can verify has Downs Syndrom is not alive?

I don't know.


This is an issue that I am not sure on. So I find my self arguing both sides in my head.

I have heard some Muslim clerics say that it is not a human baby until the begging of the 3rd trimester. Some believe that is when the soul enters the form of the humane that is when it becomes a life.
Some believe that life starts when the hearth starts beating for the first time, and many like you believe life starts at the very second the sperm fertilizes the egg.

The concept of a soul and what god would want you to do is strictly dependent on perspective, the culture, and people you grew up with.

So I play devils advocate on some issues just so I can find out how are you so sure of your views. I am not sure at all. I can’t tell you that there will be no repercussions and I can’t say that there will be any.

I do appreciate everyone’s views it helps me see why people feel the way they do.
I am selfishly happy not to be a woman. Cause when the time comes if ever I can say I support you no matter what you decide and feel like I have done my duty, yet have I?

I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain

[Darius11 12]

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Of course they are blessings....but In my opinion, God has given a special blessing to those who have a DS child.

In my 1 bedroom apartment, I have four walls in my living room, three of them are photo displays of 5 of my grandchildren,and the largest one is reserved for Lindsay. Amid the more than 160 photos of Lindsay is the following poem.

I think it tells of the love we have:

Lindsay loves Bampa loves Lindsay

I know I'm just a little girl
And I don't know a lot.
I have a handicap you see,
Downs Syndrome's what I've got.
I may not have the smarts you have,
But I will rise above,
My tiny body isn't strong
But its sure full of love.

I'm told that I am special
And I sometimes wonder why,
Some people treat me very mean
And sometimes make me cry.
I try to do the best I can
My best is all I've got,
But Bampa treats me special
And I sure love him a lot.

There is one person that I love
And Bampa is his name,
I love to go to Bampa's house
Where we can play a game.
Its hide and seek, or Dance and sing
And after counting ten,
I find my Bampa hiding
And then I hide on him.

When Bampa claps his hands for me
He gets slapped on his head.
I'm laughing hard, it so much fun
Cause Bampa's face gets red.
What joy it is when I'm allowed
At Bampa's house to go,
I love it when he holds me tight
And I hope he won't let go.

Two hearts with one great love between them!!!


You cannot know what love is until you have helped a Downs Syndrome child grow.

Bill that’s just beautiful man. You’re lucky to have each other.

I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain

[feuergnom 29]

for a religiuos whackjob everything is a blessing

The universal aptitude for ineptitude makes any human accomplishment an incredible miracle

dudeist skydiver # 666

[pirana 0]

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for a religiuos whackjob everything is a blessing

Yeah, the God is everywhere crowd.

Drop nuclear weapons and the response is God is everywhere.

Favorite marbles stuck under the piano and, God is everywhere.

Genocide in Darfur, Zimbabwe, Cerbia, etc and, God is everywhere.

The price of gasoline back down to $3.54 and, God is everywhere.

Humans born with horrible diseases and destined for slow agonizing death, and God is everywhere.

Seems like things actually have far less meaning in and of themselves when they are all explained by God is everywhere. Everything is OK because it's part of His plan? If you were all powerful and all knowing (and supoposedly kind and benevolent), would this be your plan?

Strange plan.

" . . . the lust for power can be just as completely satisfied by suggesting people into loving their servitude as by flogging them and kicking them into obedience." -- Aldous Huxley

[Butters 0]

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Would this be your plan?

Maybe. I need to know my goal before I make my plan.

"That looks dangerous." Leopold Stotch

[christelsabine 1]

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Of course they are blessings....but In my opinion, God has given a special blessing to those who have a DS child.

In my 1 bedroom apartment, I have four walls in my living room, three of them are photo displays of 5 of my grandchildren,and the largest one is reserved for Lindsay. Amid the more than 160 photos of Lindsay is the following poem.

I think it tells of the love we have:

Lindsay loves Bampa loves Lindsay

I know I'm just a little girl
And I don't know a lot.
I have a handicap you see,
Downs Syndrome's what I've got.
I may not have the smarts you have,
But I will rise above,
My tiny body isn't strong
But its sure full of love.

I'm told that I am special
And I sometimes wonder why,
Some people treat me very mean
And sometimes make me cry.
I try to do the best I can
My best is all I've got,
But Bampa treats me special
And I sure love him a lot.

There is one person that I love
And Bampa is his name,
I love to go to Bampa's house
Where we can play a game.
Its hide and seek, or Dance and sing
And after counting ten,
I find my Bampa hiding
And then I hide on him.

When Bampa claps his hands for me
He gets slapped on his head.
I'm laughing hard, it so much fun
Cause Bampa's face gets red.
What joy it is when I'm allowed
At Bampa's house to go,
I love it when he holds me tight
And I hope he won't let go.

Two hearts with one great love between them!!!


You cannot know what love is until you have helped a Downs Syndrome child grow.

Oh man, that sounds like a declaration of love for a loving woman. You never had this with your 2 exes and your 7 kids?

dudeist skydiver # 3105

[crozby 0]

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Until someone can come up with another "Instant" that life begins, my view will not change.

Maybe when it comes to abortion trying to define the "instant" life begins is not as relevant as trying to determine at what point in an embryo's development it would experience suffering on termination.

I don't understand people who have issues with killing a collection of non-thinking, non-feeling, non-experiencing cells because they are "alive" yet turn a blind eye to the daily worldwide slaughter of millions of 'fully nerved-up', live chickens, cows, pigs, goats, sheep and humans.

To answer the thread question, yes I would. My partner and I have had two children, had amnio both times, would have aborted but didn't need to. In our opinion the decision to abort ultimately lies with the woman concerned.

[Muenkel 0]

To Bill Cole,

The poem you posted was absolutely beautiful. Please give your prescious Lindsay a kiss for me.
To Chelle,

My stand on abortion is no way under any circumstances. This shouldn't come as a surprise as I have posted my position many times here.

Out of all the millions of abortions that have been performed, I wonder how many lives we have snuffed out that would have contributed so much beauty to this world. I also wonder how many of those abortions were done out of convenience as opposed to catastrophic medical reasons. My guess would definitely be out of convenience.

_________________________________________
Chris

[christelsabine 1]

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I think he's just trying to explain how lovable, sweet and innocent a child with DS can be!
More importantly, I'm after more info from the Armageddon-ometer. Why didn't Obama appear much then chuteless, in comparison to John? Apparantly Obama could well be the Anti-Christ instead of the N. Korean dude you told us about earlier!

What?? I told you anything about a North Korean dude ... OK, I know that's the one taking over world power soon but, that was not my idea ......

dudeist skydiver # 3105

[Muenkel 0]

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I think he's just trying to explain how lovable, sweet and innocent a child with DS can be!

More importantly, I'm after more info from the Armageddon-ometer. Why didn't Obama appear much then chuteless, in comparison to John? Apparantly Obama could well be the Anti-Christ instead of the N. Korean dude you told us about earlier!

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


What?? I told you anything about a North Korean dude ... OK, I know that's the one taking over world power soon but, that was not my idea ......

Christel, You sure that wasn't your idea; because the way the planets are lining up and the numbers I've been working with are making me wonder.

_________________________________________
Chris

[georgerussia 0]

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Out of all the millions of abortions that have been performed, I wonder how many lives we have snuffed out that would have contributed so much beauty to this world.

Do you wonder how many lives were snuffed out that would have contributed so much PAIN to this world?

It's actually funny that although most posts in this topic are anti-abortion, the votes show exactly the opposite results. Hypocrisy?

* Don't pray for me if you wanna help - just send me a check. *

[Muenkel 0]

If you're taking the results of the polls on this site as scientific, you're going to end up very confused.

_________________________________________
Chris

[georgerussia 0]

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If you're taking the results of the polls on this site as scientific, you're going to end up very confused.

I'm comparing posts in this thread vs poll results in the same thread, not just some abstract "results of the polls on this site".
And the poll results say that over 50% of those who read this thread voted for abortion.

* Don't pray for me if you wanna help - just send me a check. *

[kbordson 8]

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If you're taking the results of the polls on this site as scientific, you're going to end up very confused.

I'm comparing posts in this thread vs poll results in the same thread, not just some abstract "results of the polls on this site".
And the poll results say that over 50% of those who read this thread voted for abortion.

I'm not really surprised by that observation.

Maybe not everyone is willing to "stand up" and say what he/she believes. It's much easier to be anonymous.

But I don't know what you are implying by your comments - that those that may have posted lied? or that those that voted didn't post?

[georgerussia 0]

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I'm not really surprised by that observation.
Maybe not everyone is willing to "stand up" and say what he/she believes. It's much easier to be anonymous.

Yes, it might. I just wonder why? It's not like you gonna be anathematized because of voicing your pro-opinion.
Maybe it is because it doesn't look "morally right", and therefore affects the "good Christian" self-image :P
But why vote at all then?

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But I don't know what you are implying by your comments - that those that may have posted lied? or that those that voted didn't post?

The second one.

* Don't pray for me if you wanna help - just send me a check. *

[kbordson 8]

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I'm not really surprised by that observation.
Maybe not everyone is willing to "stand up" and say what he/she believes. It's much easier to be anonymous.

Yes, it might. I just wonder why? It's not like you gonna be anathematized because of voicing your pro-opinion.
Maybe it is because it doesn't look "morally right", and therefore affects the "good Christian" self-image :P
But why vote at all then?

I don't think that someone would be belittled for voicing a pro choice decision, but then again, I don't consider myself a "good Christian"

[Lindsey 0]

I have voiced my pro choice position numerous times, and surprisingly have never been belittled for my opinion. However, ya' go talking about it being okay for humans to eat meat, and somebody might try to smack ya' down....lol. Silly people.

:)
linz

--
A conservative is just a liberal who's been mugged. A liberal is just a conservative who's been to jail

[klingeme 1]

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I also wonder how many of those abortions were done out of convenience as opposed to catastrophic medical reasons. My guess would definitely be out of convenience.

This is an argument that I don't understand from the pro choice (death) crowd. Muenkel, I am not lumping you in with the "Pro Death" crowd, just respinding to your post.

If the unliving thing (as the Pro Choice people believe) is aborted, why is it considered bad if it is for convenience? They believe that it is simply a medical procedure, like having a mole removed, and you are not killing a baby.

How many pro choicers would have a problem with a woman that got pregnant every month and aborted every month (or maybe 3 times a year). Has this person done anything wrong? If you think so, what is the difference between ending one pregnancy in a life time or 12 a year?

Mark Klingelhoefer