Obama at Berlin

[Guest]

It's just a lot of grandstanding.

They're cheering because they know that if elected, he'll bring the country to its knees as it should have been long ago.

He'll make Jimmy Carter look like a foreign policy genius.

And you know that the Islamo-fascist whackos, squatting in their caves, are desperate to see him elected, because they know he'll do NOTHING to oppose them. Rather, he'll try to appease them, and that's what they're counting on from the USA; they've gotten it in spades from the EU already.

I was thinking about this morning before work, BTW: he'll get a pass like no prez ever has before.

Anybody who criticizes him will be immediately denounced as racist. There won't be any real opposition to the harebrained liberal stunts he'll try to pull off.

If he gets elected, we're all fucked.

mh
.

"The mouse does not know life until it is in the mouth of the cat."

[base_nz 0]

Unlike with bush......America is fucked already now its just damage control....

.....And you thought Kiwis couldn't fly!!!!

[ErricoMalatesta 0]

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It's just a lot of grandstanding.

They're cheering because they know that if elected, he'll bring the country to its knees as it should have been long ago.

He'll make Jimmy Carter look like a foreign policy genius.

And you know that the Islamo-fascist whackos, squatting in their caves, are desperate to see him elected, because they know he'll do NOTHING to oppose them. Rather, he'll try to appease them, and that's what they're counting on from the USA; they've gotten it in spades from the EU already.

I was thinking about this morning before work, BTW: he'll get a pass like no prez ever has before.

Anybody who criticizes him will be immediately denounced as racist. There won't be any real opposition to the harebrained liberal stunts he'll try to pull off.

If he gets elected, we're all fucked.

mh
.

Uhoh looks like you're stuck in that dream where Obama is a left wing nut because you don't understand your own political system.

[rushmc 23]

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Skimming it looks like a typical patronizing and hypocritical speech.

Exactly, a speech that said and meant absolutly nothing. But it made someone feel good.

Just like many/most speechs from both sides

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[shropshire 0]

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Skimming it looks like a typical patronizing and hypocritical speech.

Sounded that way to me too. Why did all those Germans turn up to see him? - Weird - Unless, of course, he just visited where there already was a large crowd. - who did they REALLY come to see?

(.)Y(.)
Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome

[SpeedRacer 1]

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If he gets elected, we're all fucked.

I hope not. After these last seven years, I'm all out of Vaseline.

Speed Racer
--------------------------------------------------

[rushmc 23]

At least the Brits get it
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/columnists/gerard_baker/article4392846.ece

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[livendive 8]

Quote

Quote

Skimming it looks like a typical patronizing and hypocritical speech.

Exactly, a speech that said and meant absolutly nothing. But it made someone feel good.

Just like many/most speechs from both sides

I was thinking about this during a lengthy drive yesterday because I've been having inklings of agreement with the folks who don't listen to Obama speak, but rather dismiss them outright as pretty but empty rhetoric. Here's why I mostly disagree. Without fail, most recent Presidents have made campaign promises that they simply couldn't follow through on. Whether it's a free pass to gays in the military that gets watered down to "Don't ask, don't tell" or a promise of sweeping educational reform that becomes a failed "No child left behind" program, it is almost guaranteed such that the ideals touted on the campaign trail will be diluted by compromise. Additionally, if a candidate were to spend all his time discussing minutia like the ins and outs of his particular tax reform program, he'd be seen as an unfit leader with too narrow a view and no grasp of the big picture. Granted, the level of detail most people seem to want is of the, "What will you do for ME?!" variety, but I think you and I agreement that the opinion that promises of specific relief or welfare of any variety (social or corporate) is entirely too patronizing and shouldn't be the primary basis for electing our highest leader. This is where I think Obama succeeds. He's trying to get the job of President of the United States. The President steers the ship in the direction he thinks it should go, but has underlings who translate his ideals into policy. Do I think we need a CPA as President because he needs to be able to write a balanced budget? No. I think the President should have a grasp of the complexity of such a document, and the wisdom to direct people to spend in a manner most closely mirroring his ideals. So what we're really voting for (if we want a good leader, not a good source of concessions) is someone who can motivate a people and lead them in a positive direction. This "empty rhetoric" so many accuse Obama of is actually the opposite...it's him giving us his resume and highlighting his view of our nation and it's place in the world (foreign policy being one of the most important functions of the Presidency). With his skills as an orator and his ideals regarding treatment of others, I gotta say I think he'll be a fantastic improvement over the foreign policy failure currently residing in the White House or the increasingly lockstep twin who wishes to succeed him. Why do I think this? In part it's because he *isn't* falling prey to the accusations that his words are empty of any detail. Instead of buying our votes with promises of handouts, he's selling himself to us...giving us a better idea of who he is and how he thinks things should work from a big picture perspective.

I appreciate that, but can respect that not everyone else will.

Blues,
Dave

"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!"
(drink Mountain Dew)

[rushmc 23]

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Skimming it looks like a typical patronizing and hypocritical speech.

Exactly, a speech that said and meant absolutly nothing. But it made someone feel good.

Just like many/most speechs from both sides

I was thinking about this during a lengthy drive yesterday because I've been having inklings of agreement with the folks who don't listen to Obama speak, but rather dismiss them outright as pretty but empty rhetoric. Here's why I mostly disagree. Without fail, most recent Presidents have made campaign promises that they simply couldn't follow through on. Whether it's a free pass to gays in the military that gets watered down to "Don't ask, don't tell" or a promise of sweeping educational reform that becomes a failed "No child left behind" program, it is almost guaranteed such that the ideals touted on the campaign trail will be diluted by compromise. Additionally, if a candidate were to spend all his time discussing minutia like the ins and outs of his particular tax reform program, he'd be seen as an unfit leader with too narrow a view and no grasp of the big picture. Granted, the level of detail most people seem to want is of the, "What will you do for ME?!" variety, but I think you and I agreement that the opinion that promises of specific relief or welfare of any variety (social or corporate) is entirely too patronizing and shouldn't be the primary basis for electing our highest leader. This is where I think Obama succeeds. He's trying to get the job of President of the United States. The President steers the ship in the direction he thinks it should go, but has underlings who translate his ideals into policy. Do I think we need a CPA as President because he needs to be able to write a balanced budget? No. I think the President should have a grasp of the complexity of such a document, and the wisdom to direct people to spend in a manner most closely mirroring his ideals. So what we're really voting for (if we want a good leader, not a good source of concessions) is someone who can motivate a people and lead them in a positive direction. This "empty rhetoric" so many accuse Obama of is actually the opposite...it's him giving us his resume and highlighting his view of our nation and it's place in the world (foreign policy being one of the most important functions of the Presidency). With his skills as an orator and his ideals regarding treatment of others, I gotta say I think he'll be a fantastic improvement over the foreign policy failure currently residing in the White House or the increasingly lockstep twin who wishes to succeed him. Why do I think this? In part it's because he *isn't* falling prey to the accusations that his words are empty of any detail. Instead of buying our votes with promises of handouts, he's selling himself to us...giving us a better idea of who he is and how he thinks things should work from a big picture perspective.

I appreciate that, but can respect that not everyone else will.

Blues,
Dave

While I understand you points, I will speak specifically to the "non-canidate" citizen of the world blame the US bull shit he spewed over there.

I agree a leader has to have the wide view point and goals. But, they need also have the experience that qualifies them to lead.

Anyone who blames the US for the worlds problems, lies about the effects of global warming and then patronizes a foreign crowd to benifit his own political asperations does not deserve the office. IMO

The link to the UK paper I posted here is right on the money.

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[shropshire 0]

Quote

At least the Brits get it
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/columnists/gerard_baker/article4392846.ece

(.)Y(.)
Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome

[livendive 8]

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While I understand you points, I will speak specifically to the "non-canidate" citizen of the world blame the US bull shit he spewed over there.

I agree a leader has to have the wide view point and goals. But, they need also have the experience that qualifies them to lead.

Anyone who blames the US for the worlds problems, lies about the effects of global warming and then patronizes a foreign crowd to benifit his own political asperations does not deserve the office. IMO

I didn't hear him blame the US for the world's problems, I heard him praise the US for the help we've given and sacrifices we've made while also admitting that we have at times taken actions that did not live up to our best intentions. Admitting fallibility is a good thing in my mind. To think we're perfect is to be delusional.

Blues,
Dave

"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!"
(drink Mountain Dew)

[rushmc 23]

I never said we were perfect and I never will. I have said I dont give a dam if other countries media dont like the US.

In any event, for BHO's speech

"That is why the greatest danger of all is to allow new walls to divide us from one another.

The walls between old allies on either side of the Atlantic cannot stand. The walls between the countries with the most and those with the least cannot stand. The walls between races and tribes; natives and immigrants; Christian and Muslim and Jew cannot stand. These now are the walls we must tear down.

We know they have fallen before. After centuries of strife, the people of Europe have formed a Union of promise and prosperity. Here, at the base of a column built to mark victory in war, we meet in the center of a Europe at peace. Not only have walls come down in Berlin, but they have come down in Belfast, where Protestant and Catholic found a way to live together; in the Balkans, where our Atlantic alliance ended wars and brought savage war criminals to justice; and in South Africa, where the struggle of a courageous people defeated apartheid.

So history reminds us that walls can be torn down. But the task is never easy. True partnership and true progress requires constant work and sustained sacrifice. They require sharing the burdens of development and diplomacy; of progress and peace. They require allies who will listen to each other, learn from each other and, most of all, trust each other.

That is why America cannot turn inward. That is why Europe cannot turn inward. America has no better partner than Europe. Now is the time to build new bridges across the globe as strong as the one that bound us across the Atlantic. Now is the time to join together, through constant cooperation, strong institutions, shared sacrifice, and a global commitment to progress, to meet the challenges of the 21st century. It was this spirit that led airlift planes to appear in the sky above our heads, and people to assemble where we stand today. And this is the moment when our nations - and all nations - must summon that spirit anew."

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[jenfly00 0]

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/sigh . . .

Why do people continue to believe this idiot myth?

http://german.about.com/library/blgermyth06.htm

Also see; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ich_bin_ein_Berliner#Jelly_doughnut_urban_legend

Maybe for the same reason(s) you veiw Obama as a qualified canidate for Pres??

A most moving speech. I have hope that Obama is our best chance to unite our own country and our country with the rest of the world. Compared to what we've had, a real breath of fresh air.

Of course, there are those so bent, bitter and biased, they simply won't join with any such cause.

We've had far too much 'decider'. It's time for a 'uniter'.

-----------------------
"O brave new world that has such people in it".

[livendive 8]

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I never said we were perfect and I never will. I have said I dont give a dam if other countries media dont like the US.

In any event, for BHO's speech

"That is why the greatest danger of all is to allow new walls to divide us from one another.

The walls between old allies on either side of the Atlantic cannot stand. The walls between the countries with the most and those with the least cannot stand. The walls between races and tribes; natives and immigrants; Christian and Muslim and Jew cannot stand. These now are the walls we must tear down.

We know they have fallen before. After centuries of strife, the people of Europe have formed a Union of promise and prosperity. Here, at the base of a column built to mark victory in war, we meet in the center of a Europe at peace. Not only have walls come down in Berlin, but they have come down in Belfast, where Protestant and Catholic found a way to live together; in the Balkans, where our Atlantic alliance ended wars and brought savage war criminals to justice; and in South Africa, where the struggle of a courageous people defeated apartheid.

So history reminds us that walls can be torn down. But the task is never easy. True partnership and true progress requires constant work and sustained sacrifice. They require sharing the burdens of development and diplomacy; of progress and peace. They require allies who will listen to each other, learn from each other and, most of all, trust each other.

That is why America cannot turn inward. That is why Europe cannot turn inward. America has no better partner than Europe. Now is the time to build new bridges across the globe as strong as the one that bound us across the Atlantic. Now is the time to join together, through constant cooperation, strong institutions, shared sacrifice, and a global commitment to progress, to meet the challenges of the 21st century. It was this spirit that led airlift planes to appear in the sky above our heads, and people to assemble where we stand today. And this is the moment when our nations - and all nations - must summon that spirit anew."

Where in that quote do you see "blame the US bullshit" or "blame the US for the world's problems"?

Here's what I saw in the speech, positive and negative, minus the frequent references to Americans airlifting supplies to Berlin in an unlikely rescue.

Praise:
"Tonight, I speak to you not as a candidate for President, but as a citizen - a proud citizen of the United States, and a fellow citizen of the world."

"Look at Berlin, where Germans and Americans learned to work together and trust each other less than three years after facing each other on the field of battle."

"In Europe, the view that America is part of what has gone wrong in our world, rather than a force to help make it right, has become all too common. In America, there are voices that deride and deny the importance of Europe's role in our security and our future. Both views miss the truth - that Europeans today are bearing new burdens and taking more responsibility in critical parts of the world; and that just as American bases built in the last century still help to defend the security of this continent, so does our country still sacrifice greatly for freedom around the globe."

"But I also know how much I love America. I know that for more than two centuries, we have strived - at great cost and great sacrifice - to form a more perfect union; to seek, with other nations, a more hopeful world. Our allegiance has never been to any particular tribe or kingdom - indeed, every language is spoken in our country; every culture has left its imprint on ours; every point of view is expressed in our public squares. What has always united us - what has always driven our people; what drew my father to America's shores - is a set of ideals that speak to aspirations shared by all people: that we can live free from fear and free from want; that we can speak our minds and assemble with whomever we choose and worship as we please."

Criticism:
"As we speak, cars in Boston and factories in Beijing are melting the ice caps in the Arctic, shrinking coastlines in the Atlantic, and bringing drought to farms from Kansas to Kenya."

"And if we're honest with each other, we know that sometimes, on both sides of the Atlantic, we have drifted apart, and forgotten our shared destiny."

"I know my country has not perfected itself. At times, we've struggled to keep the promise of liberty and equality for all of our people. We've made our share of mistakes, and there are times when our actions around the world have not lived up to our best intentions."

All in all, I thought it seemed like a fair assessment that modestly admitted our mistakes and still took pride in our accomplishments.

Blues,
Dave

"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!"
(drink Mountain Dew)

[rushmc 23]

Quote

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Quote

/sigh . . .

Why do people continue to believe this idiot myth?

http://german.about.com/library/blgermyth06.htm

Also see; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ich_bin_ein_Berliner#Jelly_doughnut_urban_legend

Maybe for the same reason(s) you veiw Obama as a qualified canidate for Pres??

A most moving speech. I have hope that Obama is our best chance to unite our own country and our country with the rest of the world. Compared to what we've had, a real breath of fresh air.

Of course, there are those so bent, bitter and biased, they simply won't join with any such cause.

We've had far too much 'decider'. It's time for a 'uniter'.

He cant even unit his own party.
Of course you speak of those bitter people who cling to thier guns and religion and have antithapy for those different than themselves. Someone who listens to a preacher who say God Dam America.

Ya, that uniter


And what "cause" do you speak of?

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[rushmc 23]

Quote

Quote

I never said we were perfect and I never will. I have said I dont give a dam if other countries media dont like the US.

In any event, for BHO's speech

"That is why the greatest danger of all is to allow new walls to divide us from one another.

The walls between old allies on either side of the Atlantic cannot stand. The walls between the countries with the most and those with the least cannot stand. The walls between races and tribes; natives and immigrants; Christian and Muslim and Jew cannot stand. These now are the walls we must tear down.

We know they have fallen before. After centuries of strife, the people of Europe have formed a Union of promise and prosperity. Here, at the base of a column built to mark victory in war, we meet in the center of a Europe at peace. Not only have walls come down in Berlin, but they have come down in Belfast, where Protestant and Catholic found a way to live together; in the Balkans, where our Atlantic alliance ended wars and brought savage war criminals to justice; and in South Africa, where the struggle of a courageous people defeated apartheid.

So history reminds us that walls can be torn down. But the task is never easy. True partnership and true progress requires constant work and sustained sacrifice. They require sharing the burdens of development and diplomacy; of progress and peace. They require allies who will listen to each other, learn from each other and, most of all, trust each other.

That is why America cannot turn inward. That is why Europe cannot turn inward. America has no better partner than Europe. Now is the time to build new bridges across the globe as strong as the one that bound us across the Atlantic. Now is the time to join together, through constant cooperation, strong institutions, shared sacrifice, and a global commitment to progress, to meet the challenges of the 21st century. It was this spirit that led airlift planes to appear in the sky above our heads, and people to assemble where we stand today. And this is the moment when our nations - and all nations - must summon that spirit anew."

Where in that quote do you see "blame the US bullshit" or "blame the US for the world's problems"?

Here's what I saw in the speech, positive and negative, minus the frequent references to Americans airlifting supplies to Berlin in an unlikely rescue.

Praise:
"Tonight, I speak to you not as a candidate for President, but as a citizen - a proud citizen of the United States, and a fellow citizen of the world."

"Look at Berlin, where Germans and Americans learned to work together and trust each other less than three years after facing each other on the field of battle."

"In Europe, the view that America is part of what has gone wrong in our world, rather than a force to help make it right, has become all too common. In America, there are voices that deride and deny the importance of Europe's role in our security and our future. Both views miss the truth - that Europeans today are bearing new burdens and taking more responsibility in critical parts of the world; and that just as American bases built in the last century still help to defend the security of this continent, so does our country still sacrifice greatly for freedom around the globe."

"But I also know how much I love America. I know that for more than two centuries, we have strived - at great cost and great sacrifice - to form a more perfect union; to seek, with other nations, a more hopeful world. Our allegiance has never been to any particular tribe or kingdom - indeed, every language is spoken in our country; every culture has left its imprint on ours; every point of view is expressed in our public squares. What has always united us - what has always driven our people; what drew my father to America's shores - is a set of ideals that speak to aspirations shared by all people: that we can live free from fear and free from want; that we can speak our minds and assemble with whomever we choose and worship as we please."

Criticism:
"As we speak, cars in Boston and factories in Beijing are melting the ice caps in the Arctic, shrinking coastlines in the Atlantic, and bringing drought to farms from Kansas to Kenya."

"And if we're honest with each other, we know that sometimes, on both sides of the Atlantic, we have drifted apart, and forgotten our shared destiny."

"I know my country has not perfected itself. At times, we've struggled to keep the promise of liberty and equality for all of our people. We've made our share of mistakes, and there are times when our actions around the world have not lived up to our best intentions."

All in all, I thought it seemed like a fair assessment that modestly admitted our mistakes and still took pride in our accomplishments.

Blues,
Dave

Tell me then, just what is he speaking of?

As for "fair assesment"? I feel you too blame the US for just what I do not understand.

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[mnealtx 0]

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who did they REALLY come to see?

The live production of Handel's "Messiah"?

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[downwardspiral 0]

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Yep an excellant speech and superbly delivered. He really does have leadership qualities this country hasn't seen since Reagan.

Reciting a well rehersed speech equals good leadership qualities? Hmm, not sure about that. Am I the only one that doesn't know what it is to experience an Obamagasm? I'm feeling left out.

The ability to inspire and motivate through oration is an important leader ship quality indeed.

www.FourWheelerHB.com

[rushmc 23]

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Yep an excellant speech and superbly delivered. He really does have leadership qualities this country hasn't seen since Reagan.

Reciting a well rehersed speech equals good leadership qualities? Hmm, not sure about that. Am I the only one that doesn't know what it is to experience an Obamagasm? I'm feeling left out.

The ability to inspire and motivate through oration is an important leader ship quality indeed.

So help me understand BHO's position.
Just what is he trying to inspire us to do?
Just what would he motivate us to do?

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[livendive 8]

Quote

Tell me then, just what is he speaking of?

As for "fair assesment"? I feel you too blame the US for just what I do not understand.

Man, talking to you can be confusing. I put his exact quotes up there, including praise for American and admission of mistakes.

Do I blame the US? Yes for some things, but no for the vast majority of things.

I blame lots of deceased Americans for their participation in slavery. I blame lots of Americans for the current housing/mortgage fiasco. I blame the US for the internment of an awful lot of law-abiding American citizens solely on the basis of their Japanese heritage. I could go on, but the point remains. We've made some mistakes, but we've enjoyed far more successes. Hopefully we can learn from the former and continue the latter.

Blues,
Dave

"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!"
(drink Mountain Dew)

[rushmc 23]

Quote

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Tell me then, just what is he speaking of?

As for "fair assesment"? I feel you too blame the US for just what I do not understand.

Man, talking to you can be confusing. I put his exact quotes up there, including praise for American and admission of mistakes.

Do I blame the US? Yes for some things, but no for the vast majority of things.

I blame lots of deceased Americans for their participation in slavery. I blame lots of Americans for the current housing/mortgage fiasco. I blame the US for the internment of an awful lot of law-abiding American citizens solely on the basis of their Japanese heritage. I could go on, but the point remains. We've made some mistakes, but we've enjoyed far more successes. Hopefully we can learn from the former and continue the latter.

Blues,
Dave

I will keep this question simple then.

What does he BHO stand for? (the man not the letters) Exactly?
What would he do (or said he would do) that makes him you choice for president?
What experiences and accomplishments help qualify him for the office?

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[kelpdiver 2]

Quote

He'll make Jimmy Carter look like a foreign policy genius.

Given a few years to allow more fair perspective, I think it would be fascinating to compare the foreign policy of Carter and Bush (Jr.).

Start with Carter's inability to get the Iranians to freet the hostages, costing us some Seals in the process. And then there's Bush inability to find Osama, or even stay on target, though it cost us Pat Tillman and hundreds of other soldiers in Afghanistan, all while failing to displace the Taliban.

On the courage side - Carter made the courageous but very unpopular call to boycott the olympics. (Was that a win in the Cold War, since LA was a success in 84?). Currently Bush shows great courage in continuing to send thousands of soldiers to their death in an unpopular war in Iraq. Since it's not over yet, it's perhaps to early to call it a failure - another surge just might do the job.

[downwardspiral 0]

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Yep an excellant speech and superbly delivered. He really does have leadership qualities this country hasn't seen since Reagan.

Reciting a well rehersed speech equals good leadership qualities? Hmm, not sure about that. Am I the only one that doesn't know what it is to experience an Obamagasm? I'm feeling left out.

The ability to inspire and motivate through oration is an important leader ship quality indeed.

So help me understand BHO's position.
Just what is he trying to inspire us to do?
Just what would he motivate us to do?

Did you listen to his speech? It was entirely about world unity.

www.FourWheelerHB.com

[rushmc 23]

Did you listen to his speech? It was entirely about world unity.

[normiss 895]

If would be forced to ban himself, the servers would lock up.
That was a PA...or at least in the "grey area" of dizziedotcom rules anyway.

So Obama is good at public speaking...how does that translate to leadership skills?