wmw999 2,545
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jcd11235 0
QuoteMy beliefs should not influence her decision, nor should her beliefs be imposed on me.
So, should an individual soldier be allowed to choose to abstain from serving in Iraq (while continuing to serve in the military) simply because they disagree with that particular war?
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Hausse 0
QuoteQuoteNothing to worry about.
The shame will eventually be upon any woman who has an abortion without serious reason.
And not by man.
Lol this one definitely goes to the top 5 of most idiotic comments I have ever read on an online forum...
As I'm reading it, I don't think it's idiotic at all. Let people make their own decisions here, and let them be judged by a supreme being (that may or may not exist) after their death. Royd's opinion (or mine) about whether or not the woman's reasons were good enough isn't the one that counts.
I am and then I laugh at the idiotic bullshit they come up with.
QuoteIf your current employer doesn't fit with your moral code, then feel free to find one that does. But if you decide simply not to do the parts of the job that you object to (for whatever reason), then don't be surprised if your employer chooses to fire you and employ someone who will do them. That seems totally fair to me.
What he said. If a convenience store clerk was unwilling to sell alcohol, tobacco, or condoms on the basis of some moral objection, I'd expect them to be fired and replaced by someone willing to do those legal things that their employer requires of them.
Blues,
Dave
"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!"
(drink Mountain Dew)
(drink Mountain Dew)
jcd11235 0
QuoteIf your current employer doesn't fit with your moral code, then feel free to find one that does. But if you decide simply not to do the parts of the job that you object to (for whatever reason), then don't be surprised if your employer chooses to fire you and employ someone who will do them. That seems totally fair to me.
Agreed. If personal beliefs do not affect ones ability to perform the required duties of their job, it should not affect the hiring or retention process. OTOH, if the beliefs leave one unable to perform their duties, then a prospective employer should be allowed to refrain from hiring them and employers should be free to fire them.
Medical professionals unwilling to perform or assist with abortions would be best suited practicing an area of medicine that does not require them.
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kbordson 8
QuoteMedical professionals unwilling to perform or assist with abortions would be best suited practicing an area of medicine that does not require them.
You are entitled to your opinion.
But I disagree.
I don't think that OB/Gyn's should be required to do ELECTIVE terminations. It's not a required or livesaving procedure. If she comes in with medical or ob complication that requires a termination (Primary pulmonary hypertension, Eisenmenger’s syndrome, Marfans, or ruptured membranes at 18weeks and chorioamnionitis), then that's different. THAT needs to be addressed. But if she is making an elective choice to have that procecure, then she should choose to go to a provider that will do that. I believe that the patient should have the right to make that choice, not influenced by the government... but I should have the right to make my decisions too. I do not impose my beliefs on others, and others should not impose their beliefs on me.
There are many other facilities (such as planned parenthood) in this nation that will provide the service that she desires.
Not every OB/Gyn has to or is even credentialed for EVERY procedure in the book. I'm preparing to take my oral boards. I KNOW what procedures I'm "required" to do... and TRUST ME... elective terminations isn't on that list. (if you REALLY care to know, pm me and I will bring you up to speed on the current training and credentialling of OB/Gyn's in the US)
(To jcd11235 : about serving in the military and exercising your rights to abstain from certain wars. That's a WHOLE different discussion, but yes, you have that right. I would review the UCMJ and maybe have your family look at housing in Leavenworth if you choose to excercise that right though. But being in the military does not give you clearance from morals. "I was ordered to" is not a valid argument for unethical actions.)
kbordson 8
This topic has strayed FAR from the original post of the link to the RIGHTS of the employees.
I'm wondering if it can get back on topic or if certain someones are going to continue to try to browbeat me to believe that I should either schedule a random abortion for tomorrow or give up my practice.
I'm wondering if it can get back on topic or if certain someones are going to continue to try to browbeat me to believe that I should either schedule a random abortion for tomorrow or give up my practice.
QuoteThis topic has strayed FAR from the original post of the link to the RIGHTS of the employees.
I'm wondering if it can get back on topic or if certain someones are going to continue to try to browbeat me to believe that I should either schedule a random abortion for tomorrow or give up my practice.
I certainly wouldn't tell you how to run your practice. This is about the rights of employees (and by extension, employers). I think that employers have the right to decide what legal products or services they will sell, and the right to only hire employees who are willing to sell those products or services. If it's your practice, nobody should be telling you, "You must sell elective abortions." On the other hand if you were working in someone else's business, I think they would have the right to say, "You will help perform the elective abortions we offer or you can look elsewhere for work (your own place or with another employer who doesn't offer them)."
Blues,
Dave
"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!"
(drink Mountain Dew)
(drink Mountain Dew)
jcd11235 0
QuoteYou are entitled to your opinion.
But I disagree.
Of course you do.
Quote(To jcd11235 : about serving in the military and exercising your rights to abstain from certain wars. That's a WHOLE different discussion, …
Another discussion and scenario, perhaps, but the same ethical question, nonetheless. Do personal beliefs justify undermining professional duties?
Quote… but yes, you have that right. I would review the UCMJ and maybe have your family look at housing in Leavenworth if you choose to excercise that right though.
If it would get one imprisoned, then that's the same as not having the right to do so.
I can only conclude from your post that you feel it should be permissible for your patients to file charges that ultimately result in your imprisonment for refusing to perform an abortion. That's hard core. I would have only suggested finding an area of medicine in which to practice that does not violate your personal values.
QuoteBut being in the military does not give you clearance from morals. "I was ordered to" is not a valid argument for unethical actions.)
Yes, it is, at least as far as the UCMJ is concerned. It is not, however, a valid justification for illegal actions (i.e. actions prohibited by law or UCMJ).
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Agreed. I also work in the medical field and have seen doctors refuse to give patients the "morning after" pill, however, reffered them to a doctor who would.
A doctor is not REQUIRED to perform an ELECTIVE procedure anywhere in the hyppocratic oath. The whole "we have the right to refuse service to anyone" sort of thing.
A doctor is not REQUIRED to perform an ELECTIVE procedure anywhere in the hyppocratic oath. The whole "we have the right to refuse service to anyone" sort of thing.
Muff #5048
kbordson 8
No... but some people seem to think that they are ENTITLED to whatever the hell they want even if it imposes their beliefs on others.
ELECTIVE PROCEDURES ARE ELECTIVE. It's a CHOICE not a need.
If someone wants to sue me for NOT doing her abortion, I will refer her to a phone book and she can call any lawyer she wants. Guess what, that lawyer can then decide NOT to take her case.
ELECTIVE PROCEDURES ARE ELECTIVE. It's a CHOICE not a need.
If someone wants to sue me for NOT doing her abortion, I will refer her to a phone book and she can call any lawyer she wants. Guess what, that lawyer can then decide NOT to take her case.
Now that you mention it maybe I should sue McDonalds for not serving me beer. I mean other food joints serve beer why wont they. Thats unethical
Muff #5048
kbordson 8
QuoteNow that you mention it maybe I should sue McDonalds for not serving me beer. I mean other food joints serve beer why wont they. Thats unethical
Or just walk in and demand a Whopper!!
Muff #5048
kbordson 8
I mean... why should you have to go to a different fast food place!? You're there! This place should give you what you WANT and make it RIGHT NOW.
QuoteThis topic has strayed FAR from the original post of the link to the RIGHTS of the employees.
I'm wondering if it can get back on topic or if certain someones are going to continue to try to browbeat me to believe that I should either schedule a random abortion for tomorrow or give up my practice.
As long as you see to it that your patient is given the resources to obtain a procedure you do not wish to perform, you have behaved ethically. To violate your own moral beliefs in service to someone else would be unethical.
I am pro-choice to the extent that I believe every woman has the right to make decisions about her own body. Induced abortion wouldn't be (and wasn't) my decision, but that's why we call it "choice." To stand on one's own right to choose while denying a doctor the same right to choose is hypocritcal.
Good luck getting the thread back on topic. You'll need it.
If you don't know where you're going, you should know where you came from. Gullah Proverb
jcd11235 0
QuoteTo stand on one's own right to choose while denying a doctor the same right to choose is hypocritcal.
To claim the right to run one's own clinic as one sees fit, but expecting other clinics to be run as the employees see fit is hypocritical.
QuoteGood luck getting the thread back on topic. You'll need it.
It wasn't off topic. It merely highlighted the hypocrisy of a poster's logic.
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kbordson 8
QuoteTo claim the right to run one's own clinic as one sees fit, but expecting other clinics to be run as the employees see fit is hypocritical.
I don't understand this argument. Where did I state that I would deny my employee their rights?
jcd11235 0
QuoteQuoteTo claim the right to run one's own clinic as one sees fit, but expecting other clinics to be run as the employees see fit is hypocritical.
I don't understand this argument. Where did I state that I would deny my employee their rights?
You didn't, nor did I imply that you did say such a thing.
You feel it's okay for you not to offer services that would be expected of many/most OB/GYN's, since it's your clinic, but owners of a clinic that want to offer such a service should be at the mercy of their employees regarding their ability to do so, since if the employees don't want to do their job, they can't be fired for it.
If those employees lacked the integrity to turn down the job to begin with, they shouldn't have grounds to bitch about how the job violates their religious beliefs.
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kbordson 8
Quote
You feel it's okay for you not to offer services that would be expected of many/most OB/GYN's.
THAT is your wrong assumption RIGHT THERE. Call tomorrow and find out how many local OB/Gyn's would schedule an abortion for you.
Note in future discussions, you might find it a little helpful to research BEFORE telling someone what their job is.
mnealtx 0
QuoteQuote
You feel it's okay for you not to offer services that would be expected of many/most OB/GYN's.
THAT is your wrong assumption RIGHT THERE. Call tomorrow and find out how many local OB/Gyn's would schedule an abortion for you.
Note for future reference: Do a little research BEFORE telling someone what their job is.
Agreed - the McDonald's Whopper analogy is right on.
If a clinic or partnership offered the elective procedure and an individual doctor IN THAT PARTNERSHIP refused to do the procedure, the "fire the doctor" argument MIGHT have merit - it all depends on the agreement when the doctor was hired..
I would be willing to bet that MOST ob/gyn's have discussed this exact issue with their clinic/partnership during the hiring process.
Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706
kbordson 8
QuoteQuoteQuote
You feel it's okay for you not to offer services that would be expected of many/most OB/GYN's.
THAT is your wrong assumption RIGHT THERE. Call tomorrow and find out how many local OB/Gyn's would schedule an abortion for you.
Note for future reference: Do a little research BEFORE telling someone what their job is.
Agreed - the McDonald's Whopper analogy is right on.
If a clinic or partnership offered the elective procedure and an individual doctor IN THAT PARTNERSHIP refused to do the procedure, the "fire the doctor" argument MIGHT have merit - it all depends on the agreement when the doctor was hired..
I would be willing to bet that MOST ob/gyn's have discussed this exact issue with their clinic/partnership during the hiring process.
Even still, we have some doctors in our practice that don't do obstetrics, some that only do reproductive endocrinology, some that won't do laparoscopy and others that will refer vaginal cases out.
AND some random poster on dz.com with (I'm assuming) minimal or no medical training is trying to tell me that I have to do abortions or not be an OB/Gyn!?
mnealtx 0
*shrugs* That's the party of "tolerance and acceptance" for ya.
Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706
jcd11235 0
QuoteTHAT is your wrong assumption RIGHT THERE. Call tomorrow and find out how many local OB/Gyn's would schedule an abortion for you.
I see. You don't refrain from doing them due to moral objections; you refrain because it's not part of your specialization. Fair enough.
My point still stands with respect to employees refusing to assist in the procedure. If their values weren't important enough to them to refrain from taking the job, they have no place to bitch about the job requirements. If they want the paycheck, they need to do their job, however distasteful it may seem. If they don't like it, they should find a different job.
The analogy of the soldier picking and choosing which wars to fight is quite apt.
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Wendy W.
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