"Man" gives birth to baby girl

[labrys 0]

Quote

I am concerned about the prenatal development of the child given the previous (and hopefully not concurrent) hormone therapy of the mother.

In the article he wrote for The Advocate he claims to have stopped taking hormones prior to the pregnancy.

What potential developmental problems are you aware of that give you cause for concern?

Owned by Remi #?

[Andrewwhyte 1]

Quote

What potential developmental problems are you aware of that give you cause for concern?

I am not aware of any, as I am not a doctor or a scientist. However small changes in parent's body chemistry have caused severe problems in the offspring in many instances. Usually we are talking about environmental factors, but deliberately changing the hormone balance of one's body is certainly venturing into the unknown when it comes to reproductive health.
Does trans-gendering hormone treatment have any effect on the DNA? I don't know, and I am not sure anyone else does either.

[Squeak 17]

Quote

Quote

Quote

Quote

we truly do live in a world with no absolute truth and lacking moral standards to say the least. Hell, there might as well be no standards at all.

Even if it's strange situation and grosses a few people out, what in heaven's name do you find IMMORAL here?

Quote

Are you saying their child is going to be stupid?

No, I'm not saying that at all; the kid's cognitive abilities are not being brought into question. What I meant was that the child may be confused in terms of sexual orientation, and what's right/wrong. .

that right there tells me all i need to know about you

And you call me judgmental?...

No " judgmental" is not what i call you.
My opinion of you is based on what i see here and from your PM, and judgmental is not what my opinion is.

You are not now, nor will you ever be, good enough to not die in this sport (Sparky)
My Life ROCKS!
How's yours doing?

[labrys 0]

Quote

deliberately changing the hormone balance of one's body is certainly venturing into the unknown when it comes to reproductive health.

That's a well reasoned answer. It applies to every woman who took birth control pills for years before deciding to stop and attempt pregnancy as well. It also applies to every potential dad who takes steroids. It's as common a concern in the heterosexual community as it is in this very special case.

Edit to add: What I'm trying to get at here is that if this news article had been about a woman who took BCP for 10 years stopped taking them and got pregnant, would you feel compelled to post your concerns about the potential health issues for the fetus or would THAT type of hormone therapy have even been a blip on your radar?

Owned by Remi #?

[CanuckInUSA 0]

I am not sure I understand why some people are saying this child is doomed to a life of being messed up. Seems to me we have plenty of messed up children from so called normal hetro couples. But one thing is wrong in this story. A man did NOT give birth. It was a partial op transgendered woman who gave birth.

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[labrys 0]

Quote

It was a partial op transgendered woman who gave birth.

You're absolutely right, Canuck.

Owned by Remi #?

[billvon 3,120]

>A man did NOT give birth.

Hence the term "man" in quotes.

[nerdgirl 0]

Quote

Does trans-gendering hormone treatment have any effect on the DNA? I don't know, and I am not sure anyone else does either.

From a first level analysis, it would not be expected to have an effect on the 23 chromosomes contributed through the egg.

While there has been some very recent controversy in the scientific literature, the proponderance of the data (& "common knowledge") is that female mammals do not produce additional eggs throughout their lives.

Yes, exposure to hormones or hormone mimics affects/can affect embryo development (mammal, reptile, or amphibian). (See [labrys]' response w/r/t suspension of male hormone treatment prior to pregnancy.)

VR/Marg

Act as if everything you do matters, while laughing at yourself for thinking anything you do matters.
Tibetan Buddhist saying

[mklaudiosz 0]

the birds and the bees story probably wouldn't have to be told to the kid, or it would sound pretty much the same. and the other hand, she could easily regard sex with a maturity other children are not used to because of their sheltered lives, relatively speaking.

there is nothing disgusting about the situation, she still has all her lady parts and she used them.

she feels like a man damnit, whats wrong with that?

[Leapinglizardto 0]

Quote

Gender identity disorders are a fairly well documented medical phenomenon. Scans of people who are transgendered (female to male, in this case) indicate that their brains resemble those of males much closer than females, and vice versa. It's a biological issue, not a social one, and is generally treated with hormones and surgery. The majority of people who are transgendered assert from a very young age that they were born into the wrong body.

"Radiologists can now confirm what transsexuals report - that they feel “trapped in the wrong body” - on the basis of the activation of the brain when presented with erotic stimuli. There is obviously a biological correlation with the subjective feelings."

"But while the number of transsexual brains examined is small, Dr. Swaab said the results had scientific power because the discrepancies in size of the hypothalamic structure were quite large....Dr. Swaab proposes that the sexual variances...arise during fetal development, and thus are essentially built in."


I'm really not sure why so many people are upset that this guy had surgery and hormones to correct what is basically a birth defect, and then chose to carry a child for himself and his wife because she could not.

source: http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9B0DE3DA1639F931A35752C1A963958260&sec=&spon=&pagewanted=all

Nighingale this was VERY WELL PUT. I was hoping & intending to post something similar. but was waiting to do so until I was able to relocate, the related material. But this is perfect I could not have said it better myself. the only thing I wish to add, is another very closely related situation involving another serious form of Gender identity disorder.

In recent years, it has come to light, that mind blowing numbers of cases, of infants being born as hermaphrodites, were subject to a life destroy, unethical, appalling practice. These children were far too often whisked away immediately after birth, without EVER having informed the parents let alone, obtaining consent, to have 'Gender re-assignment surgeries'.
Of course these individuals were found later in life to have the exact same, hypothalamic structure variances you mentioned above along with tell-tale hormonal & genetic markers, which prove beyond a doubt, that this is a physical internal condition & not a choice.
These victims were surgically altered without ever having a chance, for their bodies, minds, & physical chemistry, (the only true markers) to decide & depict their true identity. These victims grew up, constantly confused feeling that they were born into 'the wrong body'. They suffered life long bouts of severe depression, social anxiety & mal-adaptation, unspeakable inner physical & mental turmoil, confusion, & overall identity crisis. far too often with suicidal thoughts, tendencies, & most sadly instances of successful suicide.

Because others judged, decided to play god, made a decision that wasn't theirs to make, & took someone else's fate into their hands & destroyed lives. Lives they had no business altering.

Look for yourselves folks, this is just the tip of the iceberg, and there are thousands of more cases just like them. you will not even believe how recently this horror continued to occur.

It's pretty pathetic when you have to TELL people you're fucking cool Skymama «narrative»This thread will lock in 3..2.. What a load of narrow-minded Xenophobic Bullshit!-squeak

[Leapinglizardto 0]

[url]ai.eecs.umich.edu/people/conway/TS/Ford_Yale_Law.htm[url] [url]www.isna.org/faq/gender_assignment[url] [url]www.isna.org/faq/concealment[url] [url]www.hotbot.com/index.php?query=infant+hermaphrodite+surgeries+without+consent&ps=&loc=searchbox&tab=web&currProv=yahoo&mode=&dfi=&dfe=®ion=&country=us&adf=off[url]

It's pretty pathetic when you have to TELL people you're fucking cool Skymama «narrative»This thread will lock in 3..2.. What a load of narrow-minded Xenophobic Bullshit!-squeak

[Leapinglizardto 0]

ai.eecs.umich.edu/people/conway/TS/Ford_Yale_Law.htm www.isna.org/faq/gender_assignment[/url] www.isna.org/faq/concealment www.hotbot.com/index.php?query=infant+hermaphrodite+surgeries+without+consent&ps=&loc=searchbox&tab=web&currProv=yahoo&mode=&dfi=&dfe=®ion=&country=us&adf=off once more

It's pretty pathetic when you have to TELL people you're fucking cool Skymama «narrative»This thread will lock in 3..2.. What a load of narrow-minded Xenophobic Bullshit!-squeak

[Nightingale 0]

I wrote a paper in law school on children and adults who are intersex (the modern term for hermaphrodite) or have gender identity disorders and the legal issues involved. I'd be happy to forward it to anyone who's interested; for a law school paper, it's pretty easy to follow and explains some of the various disorders and outlines some of the legal issues they can come across, such as doctors refusing them medical treatment, DMV and courts refusing to change drivers' licenses or birth certificates, and running afoul of gay marriage laws because the gender that was assigned to them at birth didn't match their brain and they chose to transition later on.

[mklaudiosz 0]

TL;DR warning

Quote

we truly do live in a world with no absolute truth and lacking moral standards to say the least. Hell, there might as well be no standards at all.

please consider this, because i believe this to be the case: there very well may be moral standards, they just might not be yours. and if this WERE the case, you would never know it unless you searched for truth in every day life by the consequences of yours actions, as well as the people around you...

i find it interesting that it's usually some cut in stone moralist who is the first to throw the stone. whether this be taken literal as in the middle east, or figuratively as in the US.

Quote

thus it is not the norm. Thus, no one should be subjected ti this kind of upbringing or the consequences that can result.

your assuming that raising a child in this environment is detrimental, because you have yet to provide yourself with actual information from actual studies. because honestly, bringing a child up in the "norm" has left us with the many obese, misogynistic, materialistic, willingly ignorant, extremist, shallow people that inhabit this place.

Quote

Again, whether you believe in God or evolution - neither of these models indicate anything good and/or beneficial in terms of gays having children; if your pro God it's because it's simply immoral & wrong, whereas - again - evolution is based on the theory of natural selection; those traits that are not beneficial simply do not survive. No matter how you slice it, there is no benefit to raising a child via a gay couple.

i find this interesting. benefit is completely contextual, what may be beneficial in one situation is not in another (a key to understanding natural selection). because you yourself cant see the benefit, doesn't mean there isn't one.

i also like (in an ironic sort of way, right) how being pro God is reason enough to say something is wrong, without any actual reasons. i kind of wish i could experience life from this perspective, for a day.

we aren't wild animals, we aren't struggling to have as many babies as we can to forward the species (i don't speak for everyone). saying that gay couples shouldn't have kids because it doesn't benefit the species and is therefore unnatural is very ignorant of modern life, that we have reached the point of self awareness, even post self awareness. we have learned to make life more than just a struggle to procreate, we can enjoy it thoroughly.

Quote

I'm certain that in person there would not be such a willingness to discuss these types of matters. It is my hope that time would be spent on what bonds us together as a community, amongst various other things - rather than the pursuit of arguments.

this is a forum, the perfect place to discuss these types of matters. which is why i showed up.

we can talk all day about what unites us, some people need it more than others. as a country in think this is important, which is why i appreciate some of obama's speaches. he doesn't just splash around knee deep in rhetoric (not to say anything bad about the other candidates, this isn't the place), he brings up some very interesting and insightful points on divides in american culture. i personally want to understand why there are soo many different ideas and reasons to things being right and wrong, when there is only one reality, one truth. what is right and wrong should be concluded from close observations and educated foresight.

[Nightingale 0]

Quote

the article says that this person kept the female genitalia, but just had testosterone treatments & surgery to flatten her chest.

can you really call such a person a man?

Yes. There is far more to our gender identity than external genitalia and hormones. If you lost your genitals in an accident or were born without them due to a birth defect, would you be any less a male?

Many people who are transgender and born with female genitalia do not have surgery to add a penis, primarily because modern medicine is not very good at that kind of surgery yet. Many people who are transgender and born with male genitalia do opt for surgery, because doctors are far better at "poking a hole than building a pole." Doctors can create female genitalia that has sexual feelings and normal reactions to stimulation, but they cannot create male genitalia the same way, and many people who are female to male transgender decide to opt out of being guinea pigs for experimental surgery and live with the genitals they've got, while opting for surgeries such as mastectomies, which modern medicine is quite good at, and hormone replacement therapy to alter physical appearance and voice.

The decision of whether or not to have surgery is individual to each transgender person. Some choose to have surgery to get their physical sex as close to their mental gender as possible, despite the many risks. Others are content to make enough small changes to allow them to live their lives in the appropriate gender role. We don't generally judge people who choose not to have surgery to correct a birth defect; we respect that as an individual choice. I don't see how this is any different.

[RALFFERS 0]

Martin, there's much I want to (and will) say in reply to your post, just not now though - I'm too tired to think.

I can assure you though - you'll fit right in with this crowd... Matter of fact, maybe you should think about jumping; will probably get there before I do.

Dialogue/commentary between Divot, Twardo & myself -

"from your first Oshkosh when the three of us were riding to or from one of

[mklaudiosz 0]

that's fair. we can talk about this anytime.

i also think the actual problem should be narrowed down. it's a pretty complex situation.

as far as jumping goes, it's only a matter of time.