"Man" gives birth to baby girl

[RkyMtnHigh 0]

What's next? It's Dis, it's DAT. It's a Dog/Cat

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[Shotgun 1]

Here is an article that he wrote about the couple's decision for him to carry their baby:

http://www.advocate.com/issue_story_ektid52664.asp (Warning: It's an LGBT website, so don't click on it if you're freaked out by that kind of stuff.)

I don't think his gender will have anything to do with whether they will make good parents or not. There are plenty of "normal" people who are lousy parents.

[RALFFERS 0]

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we truly do live in a world with no absolute truth and lacking moral standards to say the least. Hell, there might as well be no standards at all.

Even if it's strange situation and grosses a few people out, what in heaven's name do you find IMMORAL here?

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Are you saying their child is going to be stupid?

No, I'm not saying that at all; the kid's cognitive abilities are not being brought into question. What I meant was that the child may be confused in terms of sexual orientation, and what's right/wrong. Obviously there are people here who disagree with me (expected.) I simply don't think it's right or moral to raise a child in this kind of environment. I'd have to bring in numbers & statistics (I'll do so at a later time) to back my argument, however, it's safe to say that 9 of 10 would NOT opt to have a sex-change and have a baby on top of it; thus it is not the norm. Thus, no one should be subjected ti this kind of upbringing or the consequences that can result.
Again, whether you believe in God or evolution - neither of these models indicate anything good and/or beneficial in terms of gays having children; if your pro God it's because it's simply immoral & wrong, whereas - again - evolution is based on the theory of natural selection; those traits that are not beneficial simply do not survive. No matter how you slice it, there is no benefit to raising a child via a gay couple. I can't make it any more clear than I already have. Note: I have no problem with gays/lesbians - just don't throw children into the mix.

Take a look at Shermanator's thread - the article posted there states that the 2 people in question are being charged with a felony!; citing: "crime against nature" (hint, hint. ) Purely from a logical standpoint - if an animal is protected by law from questionable circumstances than why isn't a human provided the same rights and level of dignity in a likewise questionable environment.... In theory, no harm was being done to the dogs and I'm sure that the couple that has this baby likewise have no ill intension; but that's not to say that in both case the psyche is not affected.

Frankly, I think some of you are looking for an argument and/or an opportunity to be rebellious; it's no secret that this is the nature of the beast in regards to the internet. I'm certain that in person there would not be such a willingness to discuss these types of matters. It is my hope that time would be spent on what bonds us together as a community, amongst various other things - rather than the pursuit of arguments.

Lets just agree to disagree on the matter at hand.

Dialogue/commentary between Divot, Twardo & myself -

"from your first Oshkosh when the three of us were riding to or from one of

[Lindsey 0]

thus it is not the norm. Thus, no one should be subjected ti this kind of upbringing or the consequences that can result.


That's an interesting thought process there. I'm certain that our situation (mine and my son's) is not the norm either. Wonder if it's okay for me to be raising him.

They might just end up being good parents. I think that's probably what matters most, and I don't see what in this situation precludes them from being good parents. They may teach their daughter some important lessons about what's right and wrong....REALLY right and wrong. Maybe she'll even grow up realizing that what doesn't fit the norm can still be good. But she may end up being a crack head too. Who knows?

linz

--
A conservative is just a liberal who's been mugged. A liberal is just a conservative who's been to jail

[Shotgun 1]

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I'm certain that in person there would not be such a willingness to discuss these types of matters.

I would have no problem discussing this in person, and I would tell you that I disagree with you. And I would also tell you that comparing this to bestiality is ridiculous. Not looking for an argument, just stating my opinion.

[christelsabine 1]

Jesus, what a noble outcry - but never taking into consideration that that baby was desired by 2 human adults loving each other and surely, will love their little one.

Get over it. If it's a lesbian or a gay couple: They surely will raise up the kid as it has to be.

And BTW: The sexual orientation of a kid never will be influenced by anything from the outside. As much as you might want, you will never change that orientation by any education or influence or pressure or or ... it will find its own way.

There's a loving couple, there's a baby, that's it. Good luck to those three.

dudeist skydiver # 3105

[mnealtx 0]

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There's a loving couple, there's a baby, that's it. Good luck to those three.

Agreed.

Homosexuality *isn't* contagious, folks. Parenting is the important issue, and there's nothing to say that these folks wont be perfectly fine parents.

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[kelpdiver 2]

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Frankly, I think some of you are looking for an argument and/or an opportunity to be rebellious;

I think most of us are tired of busybodies that would prefer to interfere in the private lives of others. First they judge, then they try to pass (or maintain) laws to force others to hoe to their moral line.

The attempt to decry this by Darwin was pretty funny - the human race is devolving at this point - the more education or wealth one has, the fewer children.

[BIGUN 1,488]

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Homosexuality *isn't* contagious

Ya know, you and I are tagged as being "the conservatives" on here. Yet, I find it interesting as I read thru the threads and am thinking.. "So fucking what?" It's none of my business and as long as they're happy and do the best job they can to raise the child in a family that's loving and nurturing, who's business is it anyway? Then, I saw your post. So what are we, trans-political

Nobody has time to listen; because they're desperately chasing the need of being heard.

[mnealtx 0]

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Then, I saw your post. So what are we, trans-political

Don't do that...you'll cause a few people on here to have a stroke or something...

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[BIGUN 1,488]

Oh C'mon... it'll be fun. Let's keep 'em guessing...

We could be metro-political.

Nobody has time to listen; because they're desperately chasing the need of being heard.

[Leapinglizardto 0]

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What a load of narrow minded xenophobic bullshit

you gotta love squeak, short, sweet & right to the fucking point.well damn all of you: mnealtx, nightingale, squeak, virgin-burner, christelsabine, lindsey, kelpdiver, BIGUN, shotgun, iluvtofly & kbordson just spared me a whole lot of typing. I had much more to respond with on the matter. but you said most of it for me, better than I could have said it myself.

It's pretty pathetic when you have to TELL people you're fucking cool Skymama «narrative»This thread will lock in 3..2.. What a load of narrow-minded Xenophobic Bullshit!-squeak

[Squeak 17]

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we truly do live in a world with no absolute truth and lacking moral standards to say the least. Hell, there might as well be no standards at all.

Even if it's strange situation and grosses a few people out, what in heaven's name do you find IMMORAL here?

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Are you saying their child is going to be stupid?

No, I'm not saying that at all; the kid's cognitive abilities are not being brought into question. What I meant was that the child may be confused in terms of sexual orientation, and what's right/wrong. .

that right there tells me all i need to know about you.
No point in arguing with reason to you

You are not now, nor will you ever be, good enough to not die in this sport (Sparky)
My Life ROCKS!
How's yours doing?

[RoadRash 0]

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There's a loving couple, there's a baby, that's it. Good luck to those three.

Agreed.

Homosexuality *isn't* contagious, folks. Parenting is the important issue, and there's nothing to say that these folks wont be perfectly fine parents.

Exactly! I think what leaves a bad taste in certain individual's mouths is the idea of transgender/transexuals. I hate to tell people this, but because the surgeries are sooo expensive and performed by few doctors, the numbers of persons who are trans are skewed, you might work or live next door to a person who is transgender. Deal with it. It's your life and your body. Do with it what you will.

~R+R...

~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~
Fly the friendly skies...^_^...})ii({...^_~...

[Leapinglizardto 0]

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that right there tells me all i need to know about you.
No point in arguing with reason to you

AGAIN. sums it all up in two brief lines squeak.

It's pretty pathetic when you have to TELL people you're fucking cool Skymama «narrative»This thread will lock in 3..2.. What a load of narrow-minded Xenophobic Bullshit!-squeak

[billvon 3,120]

>I'm not homophobic; if people want to have a partner of the same sex
>that's fine - however, don't screwup someone else's psyche due to your
>choices.

?? There are screwed up straight parents and normal transgendered parents, just as there are screwed up and normal parents of every sexual orientation/race/religion/deviation. Whether or not they are good parents, and whether or not they will "screw up someone's psyche" doesn't depend on their orientation.

>Ask yourself, would you want these types of parents; or would you even let
>said couple babysit your son/daughter?

If I respected their judgment - you bet.

Let's reverse the question. Let's say you had a 20 year old woman who had been babysitting for you for a few years. She was reliable, responsible, a good friend of the family, your kids liked her. Then one day you found out she was genetically XY and had been taking hormones and getting corrective surgery to deal with the problems that caused. Would you fire her immediately?

>Just because something is not as clearly defined as murder or rape
>doesn't make something not wrong; people are still effected very deeply
>by being brought-up in a home like this. The true result of which remains
>to be seen, as gay marriage has only been legal for a short amount of
>time.

Exactly the same thing was said about interracial marriages. "It's totally selfish to have children brought into these unholy marriages! The children will be the subject of ridicule by all the other kids with proper parents. They won't even know what color they are!" But that worked out OK. So will this.

[RALFFERS 0]

Naturally, we all have a variety of opinions and views, especially on topics such as this - as such, we're not going to agree on everything - and that's ok. Furthermore, I was sharing my opinion, based on my standards, beliefs and life-observations; nothing more, nothing less... This is after all Speakers Corner. I'm not here to seek out argument or confrontation - that is simply not in my nature. Hence why I said that I have no problem with gays/lesbians, on top of: "lets agree to disagree" at the end of my post. It's interesting that if my views/opinions are not in accord to the majority I'm accused of forcing my way of life onto someone else - instead of merely being viewed as contributing to the discussion like the rest of you...

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I think most of us are tired of busybodies that would prefer to interfere in the private lives of others. First they judge, then they try to pass (or maintain) laws to force others to hoe to their moral line.

Again, I have no problem with someone being gay/lesbian or bisexual; this will not determine whether or not I befriend or associate with someone. I may not agree with the lifestyle; I do think it's wrong, but I wont treat the person(s) differently. Having said that - I feel strongly about this couple in particular because I think they're just trying to push the envelope.

I'll give the benefit of the doubt - there are many screwed up straight parents that have no business being parents; I don't know with 100% certainty that this kid will or will not come out alright because of whom he or she is being raised by. However, I provided reasons as to why I don't think this is a good idea/wrong.

Dialogue/commentary between Divot, Twardo & myself -

"from your first Oshkosh when the three of us were riding to or from one of

[RALFFERS 0]

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we truly do live in a world with no absolute truth and lacking moral standards to say the least. Hell, there might as well be no standards at all.

Even if it's strange situation and grosses a few people out, what in heaven's name do you find IMMORAL here?

Quote

Are you saying their child is going to be stupid?

No, I'm not saying that at all; the kid's cognitive abilities are not being brought into question. What I meant was that the child may be confused in terms of sexual orientation, and what's right/wrong. .

that right there tells me all i need to know about you

And you call me judgmental?...

Dialogue/commentary between Divot, Twardo & myself -

"from your first Oshkosh when the three of us were riding to or from one of

[Nightingale 0]

Gender identity disorders are a fairly well documented medical phenomenon. Scans of people who are transgendered (female to male, in this case) indicate that their brains resemble those of males much closer than females, and vice versa. It's a biological issue, not a social one, and is generally treated with hormones and surgery. The majority of people who are transgendered assert from a very young age that they were born into the wrong body.

"Radiologists can now confirm what transsexuals report - that they feel “trapped in the wrong body” - on the basis of the activation of the brain when presented with erotic stimuli. There is obviously a biological correlation with the subjective feelings."

"But while the number of transsexual brains examined is small, Dr. Swaab said the results had scientific power because the discrepancies in size of the hypothalamic structure were quite large....Dr. Swaab proposes that the sexual variances...arise during fetal development, and thus are essentially built in."


I'm really not sure why so many people are upset that this guy had surgery and hormones to correct what is basically a birth defect, and then chose to carry a child for himself and his wife because she could not.

source: http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9B0DE3DA1639F931A35752C1A963958260&sec=&spon=&pagewanted=all

[Shotgun 1]

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It's interesting that if my views/opinions are not in accord to the majority I'm accused of forcing my way of life onto someone else - instead of merely being viewed as contributing to the discussion like the rest of you...

Well, I don't see posting your opinion in SC as trying to force your way of life onto someone else.

As for being against the norm, one could argue that skydiving is against the norm. And perhaps it's not cool for skydivers to be having children because the children are at a much higher risk for having to deal with the death of a parent than they would be if their parents did not engage in such high-risk activities. (That, and they'll likely grow up confused, thinking they have to buy beer when they take their first steps, or their first day of school, etc., etc. )

[kelpdiver 2]

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It's interesting that if my views/opinions are not in accord to the majority I'm accused of forcing my way of life onto someone else - instead of merely being viewed as contributing to the discussion like the rest of you...

your viewpoint is that 'these people' shouldn't be having children. And it's a half step from that to 'these people' should not be allowed to have children. So yes, you're forcing your way of life onto others, those who would 'push the envelope.'

(BTW, wheretf do you think skydivers are sitting with respects to the envelope?)

[billvon 3,120]

>Furthermore, I was sharing my opinion, based on my standards,
>beliefs and life-observations; nothing more, nothing less...

No problem! If you believe that a certain group of people are screwed up, or inferior, or not worthy or whatever, that's fine with me. But if you intend to start forcing your morality on them, then that IS a problem.

(Not saying you are trying to do that, just trying to tell you where I'm coming from.)

[Lindsey 0]

When I read his post I thought the same thing. Then I thought about issues that I've developed some pretty strong opinions on....abortion for instance. I believe that abortion is wrong. Don't like it one bit. But I also believe in a woman's right to make the choice for herself. My belief in her choice is stronger than my belief that abortion is wrong....or maybe it's that even though I believe abortion is wrong, I see that her thoughts about it are just as valid as mine, so politically, I'm pro-choice.

Not sure that his thinking that children shouldn't grow up in a home "like that" would mean he'd want them to legally not have the right to have children. There's a pretty important step in there.

linz

--
A conservative is just a liberal who's been mugged. A liberal is just a conservative who's been to jail

[kelpdiver 2]

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Not sure that his thinking that children shouldn't grow up in a home "like that" would mean he'd want them to legally not have the right to have children. There's a pretty important step in there.

If we accept his premise that such children are doomed to being fucked up in life, then that step is a given. The children have to be protected. In this case, by not allowing them to exist, somehow. (forced abortion or adoption, or sterilization?)

[Andrewwhyte 1]

I am concerned about the prenatal development of the child given the previous (and hopefully not concurrent) hormone therapy of the mother.