DrewEckhardt 0 #26 June 26, 2008 Quote He seems to want to make it a racial issue at times as well. Half the murderers and half the shooting victims are black. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,116 #27 June 26, 2008 >The city of Chicago has gun laws, so does Washington, DC,” Obama said. >“The notion that somehow local jurisdictions can't initiate gun safety laws >to deal with gang bangers and random shootings on the street isn't borne >out by our Constitution." He is correct. Our local airport has regulations that state you cannot bring guns into the terminal - but our local cruise ship pier does not have that regulation. They have different regulations, and there's nothing wrong with that. "That brief, also signed by 250 members of the House and Vice President Cheney, urges the Court to strike down the gun ban—and adopt Silberman’s test." Right. Not signing a brief does not equate to not supporting a certain right. There was a petition circulated around here a while back supporting the right to gay marriage. I didn't sign it because I never was around a place that was collecting them. Doesn't mean I don't support equal rights for gays. >Voted 'No' on letting people claim a self-defense protection in court >for using a gun in their homes despite local weapons bans. I would have voted "no" on that as well. It would have required anyone who might get caught with an illegal gun to turn their situation into a crime to escape prosecution. It was a stupid bill. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,148 #28 June 26, 2008 QuoteQuoteHowever, my point remains, a shop full of guns and ammunition did them no good. So, you admit that a weapon that is not immediately accessible is as bad as no weapon at all? That's a start... You have information on the accessibility of their guns? Please post the link.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,148 #29 June 26, 2008 QuoteQuoteQuoteYep, I'm convinced now. Guns sure are useless for self defense. "Data" is not the plural of "incident". So why are you pointing to this one incident? Bit stinky with that liar bait you dangled out. I know it's a rough day for you, but you can be more artful. If you bothered to read the thread you would see the context. You should try it.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
warpedskydiver 0 #30 June 26, 2008 Quote Now to keep Obama out of office and we should be good for a few more years. In response to a 1996 Independent Voters Of Illinois Questionnaire, Obama indicated that he supported banning the "Manufacture, Sale And Possession Of Handguns." Question: "Do you support state legislation to ... ban the manufacture, sale and possession of handguns?" Obama's Response: "Yes." (Independent Voters Of Illinois Independent Precinct Organization 1996 General Candidate Questionnaire, Barack Obama Responses, 9/9/96) Agreed, we already know he is against the rest of us exercising our constitutional rights, so why vote for him? That is just plain crazy Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,148 #31 June 26, 2008 Quote Quote Quote Quote Quote Quote Quote I'm not sure a camera would have done you much good had you been there professor. We DO know FOR SURE that a whole shopful of guns and ammunition didn't help the shop owner. We do? You mind providing a link about how it went down because I'd really like to take your word for it but yeah...I'm not going to. Calling me a liar? www.gunsnet.net/forums/showthread.php?t=55431 The local paper's online records don't go back that far, but I'm sure you'll beliei\ve GUNSNET I wasn't doubting your claim the two were killed. I was doubting your claim that the guns didn't help them. Did they get ambushed? Was it someone they knew and they got shot in the back? Was there a firefight and they lost? THAT'S why I wanted details. I'm progun but I'm also a realist and realize that firearms are not the end all be all of self defense. Well, I've given you the victims' names, the gun shop address, and the date of the shooting - maybe you can turn up something I couldn't find. However, my point remains, a shop full of guns and ammunition did them no good. Well i couldn't find any details so your point remains to be unfounded, emotionally based, and insulting. Good day sir. No, it's factually based. Being in their own shop stocked with guns an ammunition did not prevent their being shot dead. Nw, if you can't deal with facts it's not my problem.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
StreetScooby 5 #32 June 26, 2008 Quote Please post the link. You were supposed to do that. The link you did post had nothing to do with the article you claimed (...maybe you posted the wrong link). When citing references, try and be as specific as possible. Simply posting the gun mags site, then expecting us to search through it for something you said isn't reasonable. Post the link directly to the article you were quoting from.We are all engines of karma Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
StreetScooby 5 #33 June 26, 2008 Quote No, it's factually based. Post the direct link to the article you're referring to.We are all engines of karma Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
downwardspiral 0 #34 June 27, 2008 Quote Quote Quote Quote Quote Quote Quote Quote I'm not sure a camera would have done you much good had you been there professor. We DO know FOR SURE that a whole shopful of guns and ammunition didn't help the shop owner. We do? You mind providing a link about how it went down because I'd really like to take your word for it but yeah...I'm not going to. Calling me a liar? www.gunsnet.net/forums/showthread.php?t=55431 The local paper's online records don't go back that far, but I'm sure you'll beliei\ve GUNSNET I wasn't doubting your claim the two were killed. I was doubting your claim that the guns didn't help them. Did they get ambushed? Was it someone they knew and they got shot in the back? Was there a firefight and they lost? THAT'S why I wanted details. I'm progun but I'm also a realist and realize that firearms are not the end all be all of self defense. Well, I've given you the victims' names, the gun shop address, and the date of the shooting - maybe you can turn up something I couldn't find. However, my point remains, a shop full of guns and ammunition did them no good. Well i couldn't find any details so your point remains to be unfounded, emotionally based, and insulting. Good day sir. No, it's factually based. Being in their own shop stocked with guns an ammunition did not prevent their being shot dead. Nw, if you can't deal with facts it's not my problem. what was your point again?www.FourWheelerHB.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnealtx 0 #35 June 27, 2008 QuoteRight. Not signing a brief does not equate to not supporting a certain right. There was a petition circulated around here a while back supporting the right to gay marriage. I didn't sign it because I never was around a place that was collecting them. Doesn't mean I don't support equal rights for gays. And if they came to you and asked you to sign it and you didn't, what would that say as to your support of gay marriage? Quote>Voted 'No' on letting people claim a self-defense protection in court >for using a gun in their homes despite local weapons bans. I would have voted "no" on that as well. It would have required anyone who might get caught with an illegal gun to turn their situation into a crime to escape prosecution. It was a stupid bill. Stupid bill, perhaps - but providing a positive defense for someone that had to break a law to protect themself from a criminal can hardly be seen as a bad thing.Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
georgerussia 0 #36 June 27, 2008 Quote No, it's factually based. Being in their own shop stocked with guns an ammunition did not prevent their being shot dead. Honestly I don't see your point. Hafizullah Amin was protected by armed forces, including elite guard, and still was shot dead. JFK was also shot dead having something more for protection that a bunch of unarmed rifles. While having a gun available might reduce your chance to being shot dead, but would not gurantee you would not. Nothing would.* Don't pray for me if you wanna help - just send me a check. * Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnealtx 0 #37 June 27, 2008 QuoteQuoteQuoteHowever, my point remains, a shop full of guns and ammunition did them no good. So, you admit that a weapon that is not immediately accessible is as bad as no weapon at all? That's a start... You have information on the accessibility of their guns? Please post the link. The gun shops that I'm familiar with don't have loaded guns on the walls or in cabinets. Maybe that's why 99+% of all gun murders happen in gun shops and at police stations.... oh, wait...Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,148 #38 June 27, 2008 QuoteQuote No, it's factually based. Being in their own shop stocked with guns an ammunition did not prevent their being shot dead. Honestly I don't see your point. Hafizullah Amin was protected by armed forces, including elite guard, and still was shot dead. JFK was also shot dead having something more for protection that a bunch of unarmed rifles. While having a gun available might reduce your chance to being shot dead, but would not gurantee you would not. Nothing would. You too could read the thread for context. I didn't bring this up out of the blue.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gawain 0 #39 June 27, 2008 Quote Quote However, my point remains, a shop full of guns and ammunition did them no good. Calling 9-1-1 did them no good either. Should we scrap the 9-1-1 emergency system as worthless? Let's take it to the Supreme Court...So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright 'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life Make light! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,148 #40 June 27, 2008 QuoteQuote Please post the link. You were supposed to do that. The link you did post had nothing to do with the article you claimed (...maybe you posted the wrong link). When citing references, try and be as specific as possible. Simply posting the gun mags site, then expecting us to search through it for something you said isn't reasonable. Post the link directly to the article you were quoting from. It took all of 2 seconds to scroll to it. I guess that's just too hard for some people. Glenwood changes gun ordinance Change opens the door for gun sales to resume near schools. BY LAURI HARVEY Times Staff Writer Posted on Thursday, April 4, 2002 GLENWOOD -- The Glenwood Village Board this week approved two ordinances governing the way gun shops do business in the community. By a 4-2 margin, the board approved changes to its zoning laws and its Firearms and Assault Weapons Control ordinance, opening the door for the village's only gun shop to once again sell firearms. Trustees Larry Williams and Ronald Clark voted against the ordinances. Glenwood Gun Shop, 135 E. Main St., is located within a quarter of a mile from Brookwood Middle School and Brookwood Junior High. The village in January 1999 enacted an ordinance that banned gun shops within a quarter of a mile of a park or school. The amendment to the ordinances removes the school and park proximity provisions and restricts gun shops to being 4,000 feet away from expressway interchanges and 6,000 feet away from each other. After Glenwood Gun Shop owner Salvatore "Bud" Pennella, 66, and his son, Raymond Pennella, 38, were shot to death in the store in September 1998, the store's assets were liquidated and a new owner took over. The new store was banned from selling any type of gun or firearms because of the nearby schools. "We feel that the ordinance is going to do us very well in being able to assure what is going on in the current location we have in town," Mayor Jeanne Maggio said Wednesday. "They weren't selling, but guns were changing hands from seller to buyer." The gun shop began transactions of guns through consignment, which the federal government agreed was legal. Trustee Ronald Gardner said Wednesday he believes the ordinance change "was needed for the safety of the town." "We were told that we adopted very stringent guidelines that far surpassed any guidelines that our attorney had ever seen," Gardner said. Chris DeYoung, the shop's current owner, refused comment on the issue over the telephone. Here's another: pqasb.pqarchiver.com/chicagotribune/access/34401182.html?dids=34401182:34401182&FMT=ABS&FMTS=ABS:FT&type=current&date=Sep+20%2C+1998&author=&pub=Chicago+Tribune&edition=&startpage=1&desc=GUN+STORE+OWNERS+SHOT+TO+DEATH+IN+GLENWOOD+SUSPECTS+HELD+IN+FATAL+ROBBERY... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,148 #41 June 27, 2008 QuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteHowever, my point remains, a shop full of guns and ammunition did them no good. So, you admit that a weapon that is not immediately accessible is as bad as no weapon at all? That's a start... You have information on the accessibility of their guns? Please post the link. The gun shops that I'm familiar with don't have loaded guns on the walls or in cabinets. Fascinating but irrelevant. Please provide a link that proves the victims of the Glenwood Gun Shop shootings did not have access to any loaded guns.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,116 #42 June 27, 2008 >And if they came to you and asked you to sign it and you didn't, >what would that say as to your support of gay marriage? It would either say I was against it, or I didn't have the time to put down all the stuff I just got at Home Depot to talk to the guy with the petition who's haranguing people in the parking lot. Translation for the purposes of this thread: If I were a Democratic candidate, I would be a hypocrite who says one thing and does another. If I were a Republican candidate, I'd be a hardworking homeowner who puts more emphasis on maintaining his home than on signing meaningless petitions. >but providing a positive defense for someone that had to break a law to >protect themself from a criminal can hardly be seen as a bad thing. A law that REQUIRES you to have a potentially violent confrontation with an intruder to shield yourself from prosecution is a bad thing. People will get killed so they can "prove" they needed their gun. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
warpedskydiver 0 #43 June 27, 2008 http://chicagorally.isra.org/ Be there!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnealtx 0 #44 June 27, 2008 QuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteHowever, my point remains, a shop full of guns and ammunition did them no good. So, you admit that a weapon that is not immediately accessible is as bad as no weapon at all? That's a start... You have information on the accessibility of their guns? Please post the link. The gun shops that I'm familiar with don't have loaded guns on the walls or in cabinets. Fascinating but irrelevant. Please provide a link that proves the victims of the Glenwood Gun Shop shootings did not have access to any loaded guns. Provide a link that proves they did.Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
StreetScooby 5 #45 June 27, 2008 Quote You too could read the thread for context. I didn't bring this up out of the blue. georgerussia's point is more valid in this thread than your seeming point. I'm still waiting for that link, but I'm beginning to think that's not going to happen. Providing a direct link to that which your claiming seems like such an easy thing for a man of your caliber.We are all engines of karma Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
StreetScooby 5 #46 June 27, 2008 Quote I guess that's just too hard for some people. It seemed to be for you. Quote After Glenwood Gun Shop owner Salvatore "Bud" Pennella, 66, and his son, Raymond Pennella, 38, were shot to death in the store in September 1998, Seems like 2 men died in a shop that sold locked and unloaded guns. What was your point? Your playing semantics.We are all engines of karma Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
StreetScooby 5 #47 June 27, 2008 Quote Please provide a link that proves the victims of the Glenwood Gun Shop shootings did not have access to any loaded guns. What was/is your point? Quote Fascinating but irrelevant. Good description for your points/arguments or whatever you call them.We are all engines of karma Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnRich 4 #48 June 27, 2008 QuoteBeing in their own shop stocked with guns an ammunition did not prevent their being shot dead. Your playing your silly games again. If you are trying to make some point by cherry-picking this one incident, then have the guts to state it. Quit playing around with your silly veiled implications. As is, your one example means absolutely nothing. Everyone already knows that a gun is not a perfect talisman that will guarantee that no harm will befall you. Neither is anything else. But the statistics prove that a gun is THE most effective tool to prevent being harmed. Here are some counterpoint examples for you, of where guns DID prevent crime, attacks, injuries, even murder: The NRA's "Armed Citizen" files: http://www.nraila.org/ArmedCitizen/Default.aspx The KABR's "Operation Self Defense" files: http://www.keepandbeararms.com/opsd/ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnRich 4 #49 June 27, 2008 QuoteFascinating but irrelevant. Please provide a link that proves the victims of the Glenwood Gun Shop shootings did not have access to any loaded guns. You are the one making the assertion. Why don't you prove that they DID have access to loaded guns. You don't get a free pass on your assumption. Your one-line highlight from the story proves absolutely nothing except that they died in a robbery. If you expect that to mean something, then: 1) State whatever point it is that you think you're proving, and; 2) Provide the details of the robbery for public examination and critique. Otherwise, you're just blowing smoke in a strong wind. As usual. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChasingBlueSky 0 #50 June 27, 2008 Do they keep a database of crimes that were NOT prevented when the person had a gun on them or in the house? The data is one sided if there is nothing to compare it to. Not picking a fight with you John, but you need both sets of data to make a valid point. Otherwise it's just NRA fluff. BTW, Someone in Chicago is pissed: http://www.suntimes.com/news/politics/1026348,daleygun062608.article QuoteAn “outraged” Mayor Daley this morning denounced a U.S. Supreme Court ruling overturning Washington D.C.’s handgun ban as a “frightening decision” and a “return to the days of the Wild West.” Daley predicted that Chicago’s 1982 handgun freeze would be next in the crosshairs of the powerful gun lobby and that gun violence will surge if they’e successful. BTW, Daley is pushing to have his brother in the Gov Seat next election, could be dual Daley's in power here soon._________________________________________ you can burn the land and boil the sea, but you can't take the sky from me.... I WILL fly again..... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
