McCain putting money where his mouth is...

[RB_Hammer 0]

http://www.centredaily.com/news/politics/story/671573.html

"I'm not lost. I don't know where I'm going, but there's no sense in being late."
Mathew Quigley

[Amazon 7]

And whose money is this that will be used????



Yup OUR money...

[billvon 3,132]

The goals described in the article are quite nebulous. "30% of current costs." Than what current cost? Lead-acid? Lipo? LiFePO4? In 2008 dollars, or actual cost?

"the size, capacity, cost and power to leapfrog the commercially available plug-in hybrids or electric cars" - I can think of two or three current technologies that claim to accomplish that. The Tesla surely meets three of those four requirements, and they use industry standard 18650's.

It's a good idea, but needs a lot more work. Will be interesting to see where it goes.

[VTmotoMike08 0]

Sounds to me like he means 30% of the current cost of powering your car with gasoline, in terms of dollars per mile.

Aggreed that $300 million (of tax payer money) would be a small price to pay for putting into use electric cars that don't suck. And by don't suck, I mean can do everything that my current vehicle can do for a lot less cost. 30% of my current cost would defanitly not suck, 80% of it still would.

And anyone who responds to this with "buy a tiny little hybrid and only drive on sundays when there is a full moon" totally missed the part where I said "can do everything that my current vehicle can do".

[billvon 3,132]

> Sounds to me like he means 30% of the current cost of powering your
>car with gasoline, in terms of dollars per mile.

Then we are there now. Electric cars cost around 1-2 cents per mile. Cars are running around 15 cents a mile. If you add replacement costs and maintenance it's around 11 cents for an electric and 20 cents for a gas.

>And anyone who responds to this with "buy a tiny little hybrid and
>only drive on sundays when there is a full moon" totally missed the part
>where I said "can do everything that my current vehicle can do".

No car or truck can do everything everyone else's vehicle can do. A big truck can't park in most mall parking spots; a Honda Insight can't tow a trailer, and SUV's can't do 0 to 60 in 4 seconds.

However, vehicles that can do most of what most people need to do are available now, and more are on the way - which is good news.

[ChasingBlueSky 0]

Is this like Bush pledging for cleaner coal, putting $10B into research that is hard to track down, announce a zero emission plant that was supposed to be completed this year and then pulled the plug on it when he hit official lame duck status? Then he told the DOE that the cost of building it would be greater than expected and if they wanted to, they could fund it themselves without any gov't help.

_________________________________________
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[FreeflyChile 0]

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Then we are there now. Electric cars cost around 1-2 cents per mile. Cars are running around 15 cents a mile. If you add replacement costs and maintenance it's around 11 cents for an electric and 20 cents for a gas.

Does this include the actual cost of the new electric car vs. keeping the car you have? Or are these numbers just based on post-purchase operational costs?

Just asking because even though hybrids (i know you're talking about electric cars, but I'm curious and you know a lot about this) will save you money on gas - is it enough to recoup the cost of buying the hybrid model over the conventional one?

For example:

http://automobiles.honda.com/civic/

The 'normal' civic 4 door - starting at just over 15k
The hybrid civic 4 door - starting at 22,600
The civic natural gas 4 door - starting at just under 25k.

[billvon 3,132]

>Does this include the actual cost of the new electric car vs. keeping the car you have?

Yes. It includes engine replacement at approx 200K miles for the gas car and battery pack replacement at approx 50K miles for an electric car.

>is it enough to recoup the cost of buying the hybrid model over the
>conventional one?

The best way to answer that question is "how many miles do you have to drive to get to breakeven?" Answer depends on the price of gas. Around here it's $4.59, so:

HC 32mpg $17,500 (average of trim classes) 14.3 cents/mile gas
HCH 45mpg $22,600 (one trim class) 10.2 cents/mile gas

Breakeven at 124,000 miles

(Note the original post was talking about pure electrics and PHEV's, not hybrids like the HCH.)

[jcd11235 0]

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HC 32mpg $17,500 (average of trim classes) 14.3 cents/mile gas
HCH 45mpg $22,600 (one trim class) 10.2 cents/mile gas

Breakeven at 124,000 miles

Interesting. It's off topic, but out of curiosity, what rate of return are to calculate the future value of the initial price difference? Also, are you anticipating the likely decrease in the cost of battery replacement as the technology matures and becomes more common?

Note that I think there are reasons other than monetary that make hybrid (or very fuel efficient) vehicles worthwhile.

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[billvon 3,132]

>what rate of return are to calculate the future value of the initial price difference?

In addition, for the comparison to be completely accurate, you'd have to factor in the expected increase in fuel price. (It sure ain't going down!)

>Also, are you anticipating the likely decrease in the cost of battery
>replacement as the technology matures and becomes more common?

I am not counting engine or battery replacement. Hybrid battery lifetimes have been demonstrated on the order of 300,000 miles, so it's not a big factor in most people's decisions.

[jcd11235 0]

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In addition, for the comparison to be completely accurate, you'd have to factor in the expected increase in fuel price. (It sure ain't going down!)

True. And also resale value (likely to be higher for the hybrid, all else equal), as well as …

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I am not counting engine or battery replacement. Hybrid battery lifetimes have been demonstrated on the order of 300,000 miles, so it's not a big factor in most people's decisions.

I'm confused. I thought you said you were figuring battery pack replacement each 50K miles. What am I missing?

Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials!

[billvon 3,132]

> I thought you said you were figuring battery pack replacement each
> 50K miles. What am I missing?

Sorry. The 50K number was for BEV's (pure battery electric vehicles.) You have to replace the batteries on those fairly often because a) they are generally older technology (like VRLA batteries) and b) they get cycled hard. The ni-mh batteries in HEV's (hybrids) are pampered by the battery controller, which is the main reason they last so long.

Side note - the 2009 Prius is reported to get 5-10% better gas mileage, have a larger gas engine, be able to drive at higher speeds in electric only mode, and be a little larger. It's also going to be a little cheaper.

[jcd11235 0]

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Sorry. The 50K number was for BEV's (pure battery electric vehicles.)

I see. Thanks for the clarification.

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Side note - the 2009 Prius is reported to get 5-10% better gas mileage, have a larger gas engine, be able to drive at higher speeds in electric only mode, and be a little larger. It's also going to be a little cheaper.

That sounds promising.

Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials!

[idrankwhat 0]

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>Does this include the actual cost of the new electric car vs. keeping the car you have?

Yes. It includes engine replacement at approx 200K miles for the gas car and battery pack replacement at approx 50K miles for an electric car.

I thought battery pack replacement was closer to 100,000. I can't remember if I read that on the Tesla or the Hymotion sites.

Quote

>is it enough to recoup the cost of buying the hybrid model over the
>conventional one?

The best way to answer that question is "how many miles do you have to drive to get to breakeven?" Answer depends on the price of gas. Around here it's $4.59, so:

HC 32mpg $17,500 (average of trim classes) 14.3 cents/mile gas
HCH 45mpg $22,600 (one trim class) 10.2 cents/mile gas

Breakeven at 124,000 miles

(Note the original post was talking about pure electrics and PHEV's, not hybrids like the HCH.)

Ok, the sarcastic thought that comes to mind is "why are people suddenly concerned with "breaking even" when it comes to automobiles? That's never been a priority in the past.

That said, one factor that people don't seem to consider is that in addition to looking at the "break even" number, which is attainable, but by using less fuel you are USING LESS FUEL! One gallon saved is one gallon still on the market. More fuel in the market keeps the price of everything else you buy down. So, by using energy efficient vehicles you lower your total cost of ownership as well as the price of your groceries and jump tickets. And by supporting the technology you help to advance it.
$0.02

[billvon 3,132]

>I thought battery pack replacement was closer to 100,000.

Depends on the battery. VRLA's last around 50K miles. Ni-MH should last closer to 100K.

>Ok, the sarcastic thought that comes to mind is "why are people
>suddenly concerned with "breaking even" when it comes to automobiles?
>That's never been a priority in the past.

The main reason is that cost is still the primary driver for most people - which is why people haven't been driving less until now.

A secondary reason is that there is a small subset of people out there who just plain hate hybrids. They are "snooty," the people who drive them are "smug" etc etc. Thus they search for ways to disparage them; the story about 'the Prius destroying the environment' is a good example. The breakeven thing has been a staple of that for a while now.

[FreeflyChile 0]

Quote

Quote

>Does this include the actual cost of the new electric car vs. keeping the car you have?

Yes. It includes engine replacement at approx 200K miles for the gas car and battery pack replacement at approx 50K miles for an electric car.

I thought battery pack replacement was closer to 100,000. I can't remember if I read that on the Tesla or the Hymotion sites.

Quote

>is it enough to recoup the cost of buying the hybrid model over the
>conventional one?

The best way to answer that question is "how many miles do you have to drive to get to breakeven?" Answer depends on the price of gas. Around here it's $4.59, so:

HC 32mpg $17,500 (average of trim classes) 14.3 cents/mile gas
HCH 45mpg $22,600 (one trim class) 10.2 cents/mile gas

Breakeven at 124,000 miles

(Note the original post was talking about pure electrics and PHEV's, not hybrids like the HCH.)

Ok, the sarcastic thought that comes to mind is "why are people suddenly concerned with "breaking even" when it comes to automobiles? That's never been a priority in the past.

That said, one factor that people don't seem to consider is that in addition to looking at the "break even" number, which is attainable, but by using less fuel you are USING LESS FUEL! One gallon saved is one gallon still on the market. More fuel in the market keeps the price of everything else you buy down. So, by using energy efficient vehicles you lower your total cost of ownership as well as the price of your groceries and jump tickets. And by supporting the technology you help to advance it.
$0.02

While I agree with what you say in a theoretical sense, I really don't think that it's realistic to expect the suburban family of 4 that has to make ends meet to take such a 'large-scope' view of their decision and it's impact. I think it IS, however, much more realistic to think that this same family of 4 will take a look at gas prices now, the car they have now and its costs (gas/maintenance/insurance/etc) and then compare that to what it would cost to replace that car and whether they save any money over the period that they'd own the car (this is, of course, strictly speaking about numbers - not factoring things like personal preference that would go against a strictly economical view).

As Bill said, and what I was asking about, is whether these cars actually make economic sense to the 'average Joe' when you look at more than just gas mileage.

[AWL71 0]

You raise a good point. I am one of the evildoers that drives a 05 Surburban! I have a family of six so a car this size is necessary. We only drive it when necessary and drive my passat the rest of the time. I am aware that GM has come out with a hybrid Tahoe but the trade in value of my Suburban is low and the sell price for the hybrid technology is high so it does not make economic sense for me to make a drastic change. But my next bigmobile that I buy will likely have hybrid technology.

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