Taser Found Liable in Wrongful Death Suit

[AggieDave 6]

Quote

Tasers are another option but should never be used where you wouldn't otherwise be considering lethal force as far as I'm aware. If you wouldn't point a gun at someone you shouldn't point a Taser at them either.

Uh, what?

Different departments set their standards as to what each less lethal device can be used and when. Some departments deploy a taser during a foot chase due to the physical danger to the officer involved. Some allow the use of a taser to subdue active aggression and effect an arrest. (Active aggression would be taking a swing, kick, balling of the fists and charging the officer and higher forms of aggression).

Then you have situations like someone high on PCP. In that instance when they decide they want to fight you, you can taser which impedes the muscles in the subject regardless of what pain is or isn't felt. If you don't want to taser, then you either fight the subject or shoot the subject. When fighting the subject, with the heightened strength and extreme pain tolerance, then you have to physically disable the person. That means breaking elbows and knees. That's not a good option. You're now left with shooting the subject. Even then, that won't even stop some on the narcotic. You have to shoot and shatter their pelvis or keep shooting and wait for the individual to bleed out. That's not a great option either.

What about OC spray? That won't even be noticed by the person on PCP. What about the baton? See above about fighting. We're left with other pain compliance less-lethal options such as a Sage or Super-Sock. Same thing as above with pain compliance and fighting.

This is one example of many. Its simply a tool and in those types of situations a taser may be the preferred option to maintain everyone's safety and the health of the person being arrested. Its not a wonder device of miracles, its a tool to be used properly when appropriate. In situations of active aggression or higher, taking into account someone's possible heart conditions or their BMI or their drug history is not only impossible, its a ludicrous idea.

I've been tasered and I wasn't able to fight through it. All in all it was impressive how it stopped me in my tracks. It wasn't a compliance due to pain, it simply stopped my movement and made me go to the ground.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[grimmie 186]

Nope, the Sgt said it never crossed his mind the perp would explode. He didn't want to shoot him and he was worried about the GF and baby.

[Scoop 0]

I guess they make us tougher over here. We don't rely on no stinking tools to control people

Policies are clearly different too.

Interesting all the same!

[mnealtx 0]

Quote

I guess they make us tougher over here. We don't rely on no stinking tools to control people

Would that the Tasers, the pepper spray, or some OTHER tool that y'all don't use?

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[Scoop 0]

We don't routinely carry Tasers.

Pepper spray is effective but I've only had to use it once in 4 years (albeit in different roles) and that was only because a colleague wound someone up to the point we couldn't control them anymore.

99 times out of 100 you can talk your way out of a situation if you want to.

I have, however, had to roll round on the floor with people numerous times.

You can see why in my mind the use of Taser is waaaaaaaay up on the scale of force.

[kelpdiver 2]

Quote

Different departments set their standards as to what each less lethal device can be used and when. Some departments deploy a taser during a foot chase due to the physical danger to the officer involved.

Maybe they should be mandating better fitness for their LEO's? Scoop has it right - if you're not at a point where you need to shoot a guy, should you be tasering him?

[AggieDave 6]

Sometimes you can talk your way through a situation, sometimes you can't. Sometimes you don't get a chance to.

Ever had someone high from smoking wet (marijuana dipped in formaldehyde) decide to attack you because you're there? Not a lot of time to "talk your way through it." You either react and react correctly with the appropriate (but not excessive) use of forth or you will be seriously hurt then possibly killed.

I've never had OC spray work on anyone, they didn't notice until long after the arrest. It works like a champ on many types of dogs who would like to bite you, though.

Out of curiosity, have you ever had anyone pull a knife on you? Have you ever found a gun on someone you just arrested? Have you ever had anyone swing or attempt to swing any type of weapon at you? Ever been in a foot chase? How about a vehicle pursuit?

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[Scoop 0]

Quote

Maybe they should be mandating better fitness for their LEO's? Scoop has it right - if you're not at a point where you need to shoot a guy, should you be tasering him?

What worries me is they are wandering around with guns

[mnealtx 0]

Quote

Scoop has it right - if you're not at a point where you need to shoot a guy, should you be tasering him?

Then the police should just shoot people instead of the Taser?

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[mnealtx 0]

Quote

Quote

Maybe they should be mandating better fitness for their LEO's? Scoop has it right - if you're not at a point where you need to shoot a guy, should you be tasering him?

What worries me is they are wandering around with guns

Maybe you should be MORE worried about what the criminals ARE carrying instead of what your fellow officers are - unless you're advocating that police are a larger threat than criminals?

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[AggieDave 6]

Quote

Maybe they should be mandating better fitness for their LEO's? Scoop has it right - if you're not at a point where you need to shoot a guy, should you be tasering him?

Remember, I said some departments. Those departments are becoming fewer and fewer.

The level of fitness for the LEO has nothing to do with it. Ever been in a foot chase at 4am through a neighborhood? I've seen officers break legs and blow up knees due to unseen ditches/curbs. I've seen officers required to get numerous stitches after running into an unseen guy line or clothes line or fence.

The suspect knows the area, many times they run when they are in a familiar area so they know all the trails and perils.

I can't attest to every officer and every department. I can only attest to what I have personally experienced.

Quote

if you're not at a point where you need to shoot a guy, should you be tasering him?

If you're in a situation where you're at deadly force, then deadly force needs to, unfortunately, be applied. Its a serious lapse in judgment to deploy less-lethal in a deadly force scenario without hard-cover (another officer with a lethal weapon deployed and ready).

Devices like tasers don't always work. Even with someone with a knife, that individual can cover the distance from 21ft to striking you quicker then you can draw your weapon.

I highly suggest that you (and everyone else reading this) contact their local police department or sheriff's office and ask about civilian ride along. Also ask about citizen's police academy. Educate yourself with what real police work entails. It is NOT an episode of cops.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[Scoop 0]

Quote

Ever had someone high from smoking wet (marijuana dipped in formaldehyde) decide to attack you because you're there?

No. Not familiar with that as a drug. Must be a regional thing. We tend to find alot of the weird drugs just don't take off over here.

Of course people try it on with us all the time. Never had what I would consider a real attempt to do me harm though.

Quote

I've never had OC spray work on anyone, they didn't notice until long after the arrest. It works like a champ on many types of dogs who would like to bite you, though.

I guess you lot aren't getting equipped with the right stuff then. If it doesn't work you might as well carry around a jug of water. I've not had to use it on dogs yet but I hear its very effective.

Quote

have you ever had anyone pull a knife on you?

Yes and a screwdriver.

Quote

Have you ever found a gun on someone you just arrested

Not real, only replicas, but gun crime isn't that common where I work.

Quote

Have you ever had anyone swing or attempt to swing any type of weapon at you?

Yes

Quote

Ever been in a foot chase?

Yes. Damn, a handful every shift normally!

Quote

How about a vehicle pursuit?

Yes and it was bloody good fun as they crashed and we caught them all.


I still think that many officers have lost their ability to communicate and are too ready to jump to their equipment.

[Scoop 0]

Quote

Then the police should just shoot people instead of the Taser?

Maybe, thats the call of the individual officer. If you think you can resolve the situation without the need to kill anyone or cause serious injury, that has to be a bonus.

[Scoop 0]

Quote

I've seen officers required to get numerous stitches after running into an unseen guy line or clothes line or fence.

Colleague of mine did that. Didn't see the little decroative 6 inch fence around someones front garden and fell flat on his face. The first reaction to him falling over and hurting himself was to get a photo to embarass him with But those two always goofed around

[AggieDave 6]

Quote

I still think that many officers have lost their ability to communicate and are too ready to jump to their equipment.

It varies between departments, but I know that in many departments a "use of force" report has to be completed every single time any of those tools are used. Including handcuffing w/o arrest, pointing a weapon at someone and even applying a pressure point. In most of those departments those reports are sent up the chain of command and reviewed extensively. Send up more then one a month and you'll get reviewed much more closely. Send up more then ten a year and you'll get a VERY close review.

More often then not in many departments, officers are too reluctant to use the tools available to them for fear of reprimands from the chain of command. There's a time and a place for every tool that an officer has. Those tools include your ability to use "verbal judo."



As a side note:

Quote

Yes. Damn, a handful every shift normally!

Glad to see your police force is respected.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[mnealtx 0]

Quote

Quote

I've seen officers required to get numerous stitches after running into an unseen guy line or clothes line or fence.

Colleague of mine did that. Didn't see the little decroative 6 inch fence around someones front garden and fell flat on his face. The first reaction to him falling over and hurting himself was to get a photo to embarass him with

If the foot pursuit was so non-critical that you were able to stop and get a photo, why were you in a foot pursuit in the first place?

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[downwardspiral 0]

Quote

I still think that many officers have lost their ability to communicate and are too ready to jump to their equipment.

uh huh. coincidently.....

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,365645,00.html

www.FourWheelerHB.com

[Scoop 0]

Do I have to justify a foot chase then?

Am I not properly authorised to run at speed? I didn't have scissors in my hand, it's ok

[Scoop 0]

Quote

Quote

I still think that many officers have lost their ability to communicate and are too ready to jump to their equipment.

uh huh. coincidently.....

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,365645,00.html

I'd take that with a pinch of salt. What the defendant tells the newspapers is, funnily enough, not normally an accurate account. He was probably knocking his wife about or something.

But nevertheless, all over the world you get people who just can't communicate. Its just not a good trait for a police officer, in my opinion

[mnealtx 0]

Quote

Do I have to justify a foot chase then?

Am I not properly authorised to run at speed? I didn't have scissors in my hand, it's ok

Not the point - maybe you FORGOT you were supposed to be pursuing a criminal? If you have time to stop and take a funny picture, either you didn't NEED to be in the foot pursuit to begin with or your dedication to 'protect and serve' is seriously lacking....

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[AggieDave 6]

Quote

Not the point - maybe you FORGOT you were supposed to be pursuing a criminal? If you have time to stop and take a funny picture, either you didn't NEED to be in the foot pursuit to begin with or your dedication to 'protect and serve' is seriously lacking....

Or it has to do with the lack of individual's rights in the UK? In the US there has to be PC for a stop/detention in order to have PC to chase. Someone simply running from a police officer is not probable cause.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[Scoop 0]

I don't even remember what it was for anymore. We run after people for all sorts of stuff. Soemtimes its for serious crime, maybe they are wanted, sometimes its because they just ran from us (which the kids like to do for fun) or maybe they were just drinking underage.

Don't question my dedication.

Is it more important to catch someone for stealing a 40 pence packet of crisps or to give first aid to your crew member? It just so happens that in the boot of our cars we carry Polaroid cameras

[downwardspiral 0]

Quote

Quote

Quote

I still think that many officers have lost their ability to communicate and are too ready to jump to their equipment.

uh huh. coincidently.....

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,365645,00.html

I'd take that with a pinch of salt. What the defendant tells the newspapers is, funnily enough, not normally an accurate account. He was probably knocking his wife about or something.

But nevertheless, all over the world you get people who just can't communicate. Its just not a good trait for a police officer, in my opinion

Oh come on... we both know the defendant was lieing. I just found it hilariously spectacular timing.

www.FourWheelerHB.com

[Scoop 0]

Quote

Oh come on... we both know the defendant was lieing. I just found it hilariously spectacular timing.

It was good!

i do enjoy hearing peoples excuses and explanations sometimes too it is funny.

[nerdgirl 0]

Quote

re: non-lethal vs. less-lethal.

I thought that tasers had initally been marketed as non-lethal, and then picked up the less-lethal early on in the game. I certainly could be wrong, however.

You're correct.

Taser® used to market the devices as non-lethal but no longer seems to openly. They're now “conductive energy devices” (CEDs) or “electronic control devices” (ECDs) (to me the latter sounds likr an RF tag slapped on an MP3 player at Best Buy).

Many (most?) Taser® distributors still market them as “Taser Non-Lethal Defense.” Another example from “Taser.org” of “Non-Lethal Taser” moniker remaining. Also on adds for the pink Taser C-2.

Among the more colorful monikers that have been applied as to such weapons/devices are “soft-kill,” “pre-lethal” and “weapons that do not intentionally cross the death barrier.” The latter is attributed to GEN “Shy” Meyer, USA (ret) by COL John Alexander, PhD, USA (ret) … Alexander, while active duty and after remains one of the main proponents of non-lethal weapons, as well as more esoteric ‘techniques’ and concepts.

The DoD still calls it the Joint Non-Lethal Weapons Program (NLW).

The DOJ & NIJ has largely, imo, been responsible for the shift to “less-than-lethal” and “less-lethal” for domestic LEO use.

Non-lethal/less-lethal/”weapons that do not intentionally cross the death barrier” span a range of technologies.

Regardless, NLWs are an “alternative to lethal” not an alternative to good, professional law enforcement.

VR/Marg

Act as if everything you do matters, while laughing at yourself for thinking anything you do matters.
Tibetan Buddhist saying