chinagirl 0 #1 June 9, 2008 The issue here is health care. Which candidate are you going to go for? Candidate No. 1. "I have great faith in the government of the United States. The government has done a wonderful job of protecting the retirement of tens of millions of senior citizens through Social Security, the most successful public program in the history of governance. There are many other tremendous government successes we should be celebrating every day. On the health front we have Medicare, Medicaid and our incredible veteran's hospitals. We also have the new prescription medicine program without which thousands would certainly die every year. The only way to insure that the citizens of this country have adequate health care is to make sure that the same government that brought us Social Security, Medicaid and Medicare brings us our everyday health care services. The private sector works fine for things and services that people don't actually need. Essential services, however, must be provided by government. Profits are OK for non-essential goods and services. Nobody should make an obscene profit caring for the health of our nation. In the first 100 days after my election I will begin the process of nationalizing our health care and health insurance industries. To be sure, it will be expensive. But there are thousands of wealth people in this country who each year earn far more money than they actually need. These millionaires owe a debt to the working people of this country who have enriched them. Starting next January 20th, I'll be the debt collector for the working class." Candidate No. 2 "I know that many of you are distressed over the cost of health care, the cost of health insurance and the difficulty some of your fellow citizens have in getting basic medical care. You have been told that the solution is more government. The reality is that the solution is less government. Since World War II our government has been involved in a systematic and deliberate effort to thwart any attempt Americans might make to become self reliant in terms of their own health care. Big-government politicians have created a tax structure whereby your employer can get a big tax write-off for providing you with insurance, but you get no tax break if you buy that insurance policy on your own. The goal here has been to compel you to rely on others for your health insurance rather than yourself. Lobbyists have cajoled state legislatures to add expensive "mandates" to insurance policies, often pricing those insurance policies out of your reach. If, after all, you and your spouse have no plans to procreate, why should you pay for maternity benefits? I understand the power of the competitive free marketplace. Our history is full of examples of explosions in innovation and customer service for many industries when the government gets out of the way. For one example you need look no further than the deregulation of the phone companies. As your president I intend to use the proven power of the free market to make health care more affordable and available to all Americans. No longer will our tax code punish you for assuming the responsibility for your own medical care. Under my reform plans you will be able to put aside thousands of dollars every year, tax free, to cover your basic medical needs. This will enable you to buy insurance policies; policies free of mandates; policies tailored to meet your specific needs. These policies will be substantially cheaper than those available to you today because of the large deductibles your medical savings accounts will allow. History shows when the government gets out of the way of the free marketplace the consumers are the eventual winners. This would include consumers of health care. I'm not interested in giving the government the power to control your health care. I'll leave that desire to those who believe America is great because of government. My goal will be to get the government out of the way and unleash the power of the marketplace."~Built for Abuse www.skydivethefarm.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
quade 4 #2 June 9, 2008 Not exactly original. Why not just link Neal Boortz web page for today? Now, can you please show me an actual quote from an actual candidate rather than a hypothetical one from Neal?quade - The World's Most Boring Skydiver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,150 #3 June 10, 2008 Quote Not exactly original. Why not just link Neal Boortz web page for today? Now, can you please show me an actual quote from an actual candidate rather than a hypothetical one from Neal? Bogus quotes from a right wing source? Say it ain't so.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rushmc 23 #4 June 10, 2008 Original or not. Read the last line of each canidate. Says it all"America will never be destroyed from the outside, if we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves." Abraham Lincoln Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,150 #5 June 10, 2008 QuoteOriginal or not. Read the last line of each canidate. Says it all So, who are these two candidates, Marc? This is the best response I've seen: "Last year, Candidate No. 1. said he was 45 years old. Now he claims to be 46. Which is it, Candidate No. 1? Better keep your stories straight. He'd also like you to believe he's not a baby eater. But he's never gone on record saying he isn't. Maybe he's too busy eating babies."... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
chinagirl 0 #6 June 10, 2008 Quote Not exactly original. Why not just link Neal Boortz web page for today? Now, can you please show me an actual quote from an actual candidate rather than a hypothetical one from Neal? Dude...if I knew how to make a link I would. Sorry, not that savvy... ~Built for Abuse www.skydivethefarm.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
chinagirl 0 #7 June 10, 2008 Quote Bogus quotes from a right wing source? Say it ain't so. Wow, I would never consider Neal Boortz as a right winger...~Built for Abuse www.skydivethefarm.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DrewEckhardt 0 #8 June 10, 2008 Quote These policies will be substantially cheaper than those available to you today because of the large deductibles your medical savings accounts will allow. They have the potential to be cheaper than those available today, but may not be. My company outsourced our benefits to another company, which gives individual employees choices as to what sort of health insurance we want including HSA + high deductible plans. Our high deductible plans increase the family deductible from about $1000 to $10000 while only reducing the payments $10s of dollars a month. Based on my medical costs I went for the moderate deductible plan with a use-it-or-loose it FSA. A universal not for profit government plan may be substantially less expensive. USPS will deliver a letter any where in the country door to door for $.42, while Fed Ex gets $7 for 3-day envelope delivery from California to Colorado. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
quade 4 #9 June 10, 2008 Quote Quote Bogus quotes from a right wing source? Say it ain't so. Wow, I would never consider Neal Boortz as a right winger... So, the guy that wrote The Terrible Truth About Liberals and The Commencement Speech You Need to Hear (A Liberal Anti-Virus) is, in your estimation . . . what . . . middle of the road?quade - The World's Most Boring Skydiver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #10 June 10, 2008 this thread looks stillborn, but I'll give you a serious answer. The long history of tying health care to employee benefits is a big part of the problem that got us to today. It is quite wrong that it's a tax deductable cost/benefit for W2 employees, while it's only tax deductable for 1099 contractors or self employed, while those paying COBRA after getting laid off are paying with post tax dollars. The problem is how to undo it without total chaos. McCain's theory presumes that businesses will pay the same money in salaries and people can then use that to get health care for the same cost. But both presumptions looks false. In loose employment markets (and the .5% jump in the unemployment rate suggests this), businesses have no incentive to do so. And individual, esp once past 20s, have more trouble/cost getting individual plans than simply filling in the address for the group plan. Also, insurance companies have shown terrible ethics in their tendency to accept applications, then investigate those who have claims to find errors in the application as grounds for a backdated cancellation. Of the two, McCain's is more likely to actually get passed by Congress. But still not very likely. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lawrocket 3 #11 June 10, 2008 So in this hypo you would vote for neither? In this hypo, I'd vote for #2 My wife is hotter than your wife. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnealtx 0 #12 June 10, 2008 #2 for me.Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,150 #13 June 10, 2008 Quote Quote Bogus quotes from a right wing source? Say it ain't so. Wow, I would never consider Neal Boortz as a right winger... ROFL.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rushmc 23 #14 June 10, 2008 QuoteQuoteOriginal or not. Read the last line of each canidate. Says it all So, who are these two candidates, Marc? This is the best response I've seen:Quote Does it make a difference somehow?"America will never be destroyed from the outside, if we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves." Abraham Lincoln Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites warpedskydiver 0 #15 June 10, 2008 Quote Quote Bogus quotes from a right wing source? Say it ain't so. Wow, I would never consider Neal Boortz as a right winger... He is. IF your own ideology is that far to the left. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites rehmwa 2 #16 June 10, 2008 Well, candidate #1 wants to tax everybody and then have the government pay for it. candidate #2 wants to provide tax breaks for everybody (thus having the government subsidize part of it - again by taxing everybody) these are today's choices....1 party will pay for part of it with our taxes (and claiming it's a 'free market' solution) vs the other party paying for all of it with our taxes (and claiming that makes it 'free') if it's unfair for businesses to write off health care and not the individual; then the solution to get parity in the market is not to add the individual to the subsidy trough, but to delete the subsidy to business that's how you really get the gov out of the mess ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kallend 2,150 #17 June 10, 2008 Quote if it's unfair for businesses to write off health care and not the individual; then the solution to get parity in the market is not to add the individual to the subsidy trough, but to delete the subsidy to business that's how you really get the gov out of the mess Govt. is still in as long as there are any laws pertaining to health care. Remove the requirement for state licensing physicians and accrediting hospitals, remove the physicans' statutory monopoly on prescribing medications, remove all laws requiring hospitals to treat indigents, close down all public health facilities, the CDC... Only then will govt. be out of the mess.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites rehmwa 2 #18 June 10, 2008 Quote Quote if it's unfair for businesses to write off health care and not the individual; then the solution to get parity in the market is not to add the individual to the subsidy trough, but to delete the subsidy to business that's how you really get the gov out of the mess Govt. is still in as long as there are any laws pertaining to health care. Remove the requirement for state licensing physicians and accrediting hospitals, remove the physicans' statutory monopoly on prescribing medications, remove all laws requiring hospitals to treat indigents, close down all public health facilities, the CDC... Only then will govt. be out of the mess. that's just a swell comment though laws of conduct and safety vs subsidizing costs are very different types of interference (or could be when honest politicians choose to separate them), I can see how one could confuse them when only looking to poke around in a thread ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites pirana 0 #19 June 10, 2008 I do believe that health care and health care financing are about as perfect an example as it gets for industries that should be not-for-profit. The dilemma in choosing between patient health and shareholder returns needs to be eliminated. We still retain market forces by managing to healthy outcomes and reserve corridors; which makes the incentive long-term public health and financial equilibrium/stability. This can be done with a resonable level of regulation (a whole lot less than exists today), a level playing field (especially all the exemptions for certain classes of employees/employers), preservation of consumer choices (not everybody wants to or can own a Cadillac), and oversight by the right people (which means medical professionals, not some legislator's bean-counting best friend roommate from prep school). This topic isn't rocket science. It's not even brain surgery. Every facet of it can be easily resolved with little more than common sense and a calculator. The problem is that all of the pissy whiny special interests are going to do their damnedest to derail it in order to preserve their comfy little niche. I have this fantasy where I become Health Care Finance Tsar. Similar to the movie Dave, I grab my steno pad and calculator and defy the powers that be and simply solve the problem. Should only take a couple half-day sessions, even with breaks for donuts and team-building. A lot of people won't like me, but fuck em. The problem would be solved and, just like when I'm running the pool table, I'd holler out . . . "NEXT!" Yes, I have those kinds of fantasies." . . . the lust for power can be just as completely satisfied by suggesting people into loving their servitude as by flogging them and kicking them into obedience." -- Aldous Huxley Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kallend 2,150 #20 June 10, 2008 Quote Quote Quote if it's unfair for businesses to write off health care and not the individual; then the solution to get parity in the market is not to add the individual to the subsidy trough, but to delete the subsidy to business that's how you really get the gov out of the mess Govt. is still in as long as there are any laws pertaining to health care. Remove the requirement for state licensing physicians and accrediting hospitals, remove the physicans' statutory monopoly on prescribing medications, remove all laws requiring hospitals to treat indigents, close down all public health facilities, the CDC... Only then will govt. be out of the mess. that's just a swell comment At your service, always... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites chinagirl 0 #21 June 10, 2008 Quote Quote Quote Bogus quotes from a right wing source? Say it ain't so. Wow, I would never consider Neal Boortz as a right winger... So, the guy that wrote The Terrible Truth About Liberals and The Commencement Speech You Need to Hear (A Liberal Anti-Virus) is, in your estimation . . . what . . . middle of the road? Just because you're not a liberal, doesn't mean you are a conservative. He's a self-proclaimed Libertarian. They do exist...~Built for Abuse www.skydivethefarm.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mnealtx 0 #22 June 10, 2008 Quote Quote Quote Quote Bogus quotes from a right wing source? Say it ain't so. Wow, I would never consider Neal Boortz as a right winger... So, the guy that wrote The Terrible Truth About Liberals and The Commencement Speech You Need to Hear (A Liberal Anti-Virus) is, in your estimation . . . what . . . middle of the road? Just because you're not a liberal, doesn't mean you are a conservative. He's a self-proclaimed Libertarian. They do exist... You'll get used to it.Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kallend 2,150 #23 June 10, 2008 Quote Quote Quote Quote Bogus quotes from a right wing source? Say it ain't so. Wow, I would never consider Neal Boortz as a right winger... So, the guy that wrote The Terrible Truth About Liberals and The Commencement Speech You Need to Hear (A Liberal Anti-Virus) is, in your estimation . . . what . . . middle of the road? Just because you're not a liberal, doesn't mean you are a conservative. He's a self-proclaimed Libertarian. They do exist... Who wrote anything about "conservative"?... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites chinagirl 0 #24 June 11, 2008 Isn't that what most right winger are considered to be? Conservative?~Built for Abuse www.skydivethefarm.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites jcd11235 0 #25 June 11, 2008 QuoteJust because you're not a liberal, doesn't mean you are a conservative. He's a self-proclaimed Libertarian. They do exist... W/R/T economic policy, Libertarians are about as far right as anyone can be, often due to a lack of understanding of economics. On topic, Sen. Clinton offered the best healthcare plan. Hopefully whatever plan is eventually passed by Congress will bear a close resemblance to it.Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 Next Page 1 of 2 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 0
warpedskydiver 0 #15 June 10, 2008 Quote Quote Bogus quotes from a right wing source? Say it ain't so. Wow, I would never consider Neal Boortz as a right winger... He is. IF your own ideology is that far to the left. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #16 June 10, 2008 Well, candidate #1 wants to tax everybody and then have the government pay for it. candidate #2 wants to provide tax breaks for everybody (thus having the government subsidize part of it - again by taxing everybody) these are today's choices....1 party will pay for part of it with our taxes (and claiming it's a 'free market' solution) vs the other party paying for all of it with our taxes (and claiming that makes it 'free') if it's unfair for businesses to write off health care and not the individual; then the solution to get parity in the market is not to add the individual to the subsidy trough, but to delete the subsidy to business that's how you really get the gov out of the mess ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,150 #17 June 10, 2008 Quote if it's unfair for businesses to write off health care and not the individual; then the solution to get parity in the market is not to add the individual to the subsidy trough, but to delete the subsidy to business that's how you really get the gov out of the mess Govt. is still in as long as there are any laws pertaining to health care. Remove the requirement for state licensing physicians and accrediting hospitals, remove the physicans' statutory monopoly on prescribing medications, remove all laws requiring hospitals to treat indigents, close down all public health facilities, the CDC... Only then will govt. be out of the mess.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #18 June 10, 2008 Quote Quote if it's unfair for businesses to write off health care and not the individual; then the solution to get parity in the market is not to add the individual to the subsidy trough, but to delete the subsidy to business that's how you really get the gov out of the mess Govt. is still in as long as there are any laws pertaining to health care. Remove the requirement for state licensing physicians and accrediting hospitals, remove the physicans' statutory monopoly on prescribing medications, remove all laws requiring hospitals to treat indigents, close down all public health facilities, the CDC... Only then will govt. be out of the mess. that's just a swell comment though laws of conduct and safety vs subsidizing costs are very different types of interference (or could be when honest politicians choose to separate them), I can see how one could confuse them when only looking to poke around in a thread ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pirana 0 #19 June 10, 2008 I do believe that health care and health care financing are about as perfect an example as it gets for industries that should be not-for-profit. The dilemma in choosing between patient health and shareholder returns needs to be eliminated. We still retain market forces by managing to healthy outcomes and reserve corridors; which makes the incentive long-term public health and financial equilibrium/stability. This can be done with a resonable level of regulation (a whole lot less than exists today), a level playing field (especially all the exemptions for certain classes of employees/employers), preservation of consumer choices (not everybody wants to or can own a Cadillac), and oversight by the right people (which means medical professionals, not some legislator's bean-counting best friend roommate from prep school). This topic isn't rocket science. It's not even brain surgery. Every facet of it can be easily resolved with little more than common sense and a calculator. The problem is that all of the pissy whiny special interests are going to do their damnedest to derail it in order to preserve their comfy little niche. I have this fantasy where I become Health Care Finance Tsar. Similar to the movie Dave, I grab my steno pad and calculator and defy the powers that be and simply solve the problem. Should only take a couple half-day sessions, even with breaks for donuts and team-building. A lot of people won't like me, but fuck em. The problem would be solved and, just like when I'm running the pool table, I'd holler out . . . "NEXT!" Yes, I have those kinds of fantasies." . . . the lust for power can be just as completely satisfied by suggesting people into loving their servitude as by flogging them and kicking them into obedience." -- Aldous Huxley Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,150 #20 June 10, 2008 Quote Quote Quote if it's unfair for businesses to write off health care and not the individual; then the solution to get parity in the market is not to add the individual to the subsidy trough, but to delete the subsidy to business that's how you really get the gov out of the mess Govt. is still in as long as there are any laws pertaining to health care. Remove the requirement for state licensing physicians and accrediting hospitals, remove the physicans' statutory monopoly on prescribing medications, remove all laws requiring hospitals to treat indigents, close down all public health facilities, the CDC... Only then will govt. be out of the mess. that's just a swell comment At your service, always... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
chinagirl 0 #21 June 10, 2008 Quote Quote Quote Bogus quotes from a right wing source? Say it ain't so. Wow, I would never consider Neal Boortz as a right winger... So, the guy that wrote The Terrible Truth About Liberals and The Commencement Speech You Need to Hear (A Liberal Anti-Virus) is, in your estimation . . . what . . . middle of the road? Just because you're not a liberal, doesn't mean you are a conservative. He's a self-proclaimed Libertarian. They do exist...~Built for Abuse www.skydivethefarm.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnealtx 0 #22 June 10, 2008 Quote Quote Quote Quote Bogus quotes from a right wing source? Say it ain't so. Wow, I would never consider Neal Boortz as a right winger... So, the guy that wrote The Terrible Truth About Liberals and The Commencement Speech You Need to Hear (A Liberal Anti-Virus) is, in your estimation . . . what . . . middle of the road? Just because you're not a liberal, doesn't mean you are a conservative. He's a self-proclaimed Libertarian. They do exist... You'll get used to it.Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,150 #23 June 10, 2008 Quote Quote Quote Quote Bogus quotes from a right wing source? Say it ain't so. Wow, I would never consider Neal Boortz as a right winger... So, the guy that wrote The Terrible Truth About Liberals and The Commencement Speech You Need to Hear (A Liberal Anti-Virus) is, in your estimation . . . what . . . middle of the road? Just because you're not a liberal, doesn't mean you are a conservative. He's a self-proclaimed Libertarian. They do exist... Who wrote anything about "conservative"?... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
chinagirl 0 #24 June 11, 2008 Isn't that what most right winger are considered to be? Conservative?~Built for Abuse www.skydivethefarm.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jcd11235 0 #25 June 11, 2008 QuoteJust because you're not a liberal, doesn't mean you are a conservative. He's a self-proclaimed Libertarian. They do exist... W/R/T economic policy, Libertarians are about as far right as anyone can be, often due to a lack of understanding of economics. On topic, Sen. Clinton offered the best healthcare plan. Hopefully whatever plan is eventually passed by Congress will bear a close resemblance to it.Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
