City Law to Fine you for Idling your Car

[kelpdiver 2]

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If we are on topic - whether you are right or wrong about the mechanical and thermodynamic properties of your respective vehicles...., are you advocating that laws need to be passed to tell people how to idle their cars?

Yes - we need a law that mandates car design be changed that so when the car is idling for most than 30 seconds, a blinking red light on top starts going. After 60 seconds, a neon sign "I'm a moron" will begin to advertize. And after 3 minutes, the exhaust will be redirected inside the vehicle.

[billvon 3,120]

> The largest cause of damage to an engine is the first few seconds of
>startup, because of the lack of oil pressure.

I agree there - when the engine has been off for a long time.

>This causes something like 80% of damage.

Definitely disagree there. There are many documented cases where gasoline engines are essentially never shut down (taxis, buses etc) and engines do not last 5x longer (although they do last longer overall in terms of total mileage.)

>If you put the car into drive before it builds adequate pressure . . .

Agreed. Starting the car with it in gear and the throttle all the way down is a bad idea. Which is why I advocate starting your car and _then_ putting it in gear. The few seconds that takes lets oil pressure build up.

>You choose to shut the car off, and now when you restart it, you are
> causing damage. Multiply this by hundreds of times and it will catch up to
>you.

That would indeed be true if you left your car there for a long time. However, as you know, oil is not injected into bearings in an engine; the oil pump merely gets oil to the area of the bearing, where it is sucked in via capillary action. After three minutes the joint is still lubricated by the oil there.

The opposite is also true. If you go in for three minutes and that stretches to ten, then your engine is out there, wearing out, while you aren't using it. Multiply that by hundreds (or thousands) of times and you have premature engine failure.

[jenfly00 0]

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>You mean the temp gauge that measures the temp of the water in your
>radiator ...which doesn't flow through your engine until it reaches about
>190 degrees F?

Actually the water in your radiator stays pretty cool until the ENGINE reaches around 180-190F. At that point the thermostat opens and water flows into the radiator. The radiator cools the water and returns it to the engine.

Correct. Which is why his temp gauge had barely moved.

Would additional punctuation have helped?

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"O brave new world that has such people in it".

[mnealtx 0]

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>You mean the temp gauge that measures the temp of the water in your
>radiator ...which doesn't flow through your engine until it reaches about
>190 degrees F?

Actually the water in your radiator stays pretty cool until the ENGINE reaches around 180-190F. At that point the thermostat opens and water flows into the radiator. The radiator cools the water and returns it to the engine.

Correct. Which is why his temp gauge had barely moved.

Would additional punctuation have helped?

An understanding that there is a difference between ambient temperature and 190 degrees, and that said temperature increase DOES, in fact, constitute "warming up while sitting there" and we might just get somewhere.

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[kallend 2,150]

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If we are on topic - whether you are right or wrong about the mechanical and thermodynamic properties of your respective vehicles...., are you advocating that laws need to be passed to tell people how to idle their cars?

Yes - we need a law that mandates car design be changed that so when the car is idling for most than 30 seconds, a blinking red light on top starts going. After 60 seconds, a neon sign "I'm a moron" will begin to advertize. And after 3 minutes, the exhaust will be redirected inside the vehicle.

Great idea. Can it be extended to those whose stereos blast 140dB of bass through open car windows?

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[mnealtx 0]

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If we are on topic - whether you are right or wrong about the mechanical and thermodynamic properties of your respective vehicles...., are you advocating that laws need to be passed to tell people how to idle their cars?

Yes - we need a law that mandates car design be changed that so when the car is idling for most than 30 seconds, a blinking red light on top starts going. After 60 seconds, a neon sign "I'm a moron" will begin to advertize. And after 3 minutes, the exhaust will be redirected inside the vehicle.

Great idea. Can it be extended to those whose stereos blast 140dB of bass through open car windows?

Depends - are there extra penalties for such a shitty install job that the trunk lid buzzes and rattles every time the bass hits?

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[rehmwa 2]

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Some, yes. A law that says "no idling under intake vents for buildings" is fine, and some of those already exist.

my gawd, you are SUCH a nerd

edit: BTW, I believe the response is "takes one to know one"

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[billvon 3,120]

>my gawd, you are SUCH a nerd

You have just figured this out? I design cellphones, for crying out loud.

[kallend 2,150]

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>my gawd, you are SUCH a nerd

You have just figured this out? I design cellphones, for crying out loud.

Are you sure you don't design 2,000 watt car stereos?

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[LongWayToFall 0]

Granted, you can build an injection system that does not rely on engine temperature, although it will not be efficient. This is why auto manufacturers from the "60s and before" used it, it was simple. Also, with air cooled engines, it is very hard to determine what the temp of the engine actually is. What do you read, a combination of all the head temps and average them? What about EGTs? it is too hard and as you know, aircraft engines must be as simple as possible so they just do without them.
About water temp vs engine temp, granted, I can't remember a damn thing and I mostly attribute that to the joint I just smoked or possibly the 5th of rum that was disposed of in the trash factory I call my body. However, the coolant inside the engine block "water" and temperature of the engine, are identical. It is only when you factor in the temp of the radiator that things become complicated to describe accurately. I'm sure you understand where the confusion is coming from, and the fact that 99% of cars do not have a setup like yours does, with the gauge reading from the radiator. It is simply less useful. So why you gotta be the ball buster huh?

[LongWayToFall 0]

His temp gauge has barely moved because his engine is still cold, not because his radiator is only barely warmed up. Only when the thermostat has opened does the radiator see any action.

[LongWayToFall 0]

Well, saying that 80% of engine damage in a common engine is caused by startup, and never shutting down your engine will make it last 5x longer is much different. Damages to the engine that would relate to inadequate oil pressure, such as start up, would be spun main and rod bearings (almost always rod though, due to the way it actuates) as well as camshaft bearing damage. Things that would relate to simply running an engine for a long time, would be worn piston rings, leaky valves from buildup, wear to the valve train, etc. Did you know that there are engines for certain generator systems that are designed to run for 10, 20, 40 years? I heard 100 but that may be a stretch. What is comes down to, is that the engine manufacturer is only interested in making any one part as strong as the rest, why have cylinders that last forever when it will throw a rod bearing after X hours? It will be a waste of money.
I think your picture of the inner workings of the babbitt bearing are flawed, yes they do have a sucking action that helps to circulate it around the bearing, but pressure is absolutely crucial for them to work. Check out the image on this page:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Babbitt_metal
The channel that is in the center of the bearing is pressurized with whatever the oil pump is putting out, and that oil gets shot out the sides while at the same time acting as very tiny ball bearings. The bigger the explosion in the combustion chamber, the harder the crank is pushing to the outside of the bearing, and the more oil pressure is needed to prevent metal to metal contact. When the engine is first started, there is a small amount of oil on the bearing, and this will usually prevent contact. However, I believe that when the engine is warm and the oil is thin, it is much easier for the crank to "squirt" the oil out in between, and cause damage. The thick oil in the bearing that is there during a cold startup is actually helpful, though the pump takes much longer to supply oil pressure to the bearing.
So, you can have your choice, leave the motor running and wear the rings, or shut it off and wear the bearings when you restart.

[LongWayToFall 0]

So, lets see. You say something that is obviously wrong regarding the operation of engines, and then when I call you on it, all you can do it retaliate by saying that I am a "straw man" and that I am wrong. When I bring up many facts that have to do with what is going on in the engine as it warms up, all you do is say that my reference of "aircooled dirt bikes"(which I didn't reference but will take credit for anyways because it makes a good example) and "WW2 planes" are no good, for an unknown reason.
So, what I am saying right now, is that you do not have the education and ability to contradict what I have said with facts. Period. What is amazing is that you refuse to back your comments, and instead attack me directly.

Back on topic: the law sucks. People buy gas, to burn it. I'm waiting for the FAA to have someone out at the dz with a stopwatch for jump planes. Vidiots, prepare to haul ass between loads!

[mnealtx 0]

Seems like a large part of the lubrication problem could be solved by making a simple pre-oiler system a standard component.

Of course, that will never happen, since then the auto makers will lose money on engine repair/replacements.

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[kelpdiver 2]

you can't defeat people's beliefs in wive's tales - no amount of facts will sway them. They have been presented to you.

Your strawman, btw, was that you have a choice of stupidly idling your car for an hour, or to floor the gas pedal immediately. Intelligent people find a middle course, the one proscribed by car people, manufacturers and government agencies. Is it your belief that all of these people are engaged in a conspiracy to make us ruin our engines?

[champu 1]

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>my gawd, you are SUCH a nerd

You have just figured this out? I design cellphones, for crying out loud.

Are you sure you don't design 2,000 watt car stereos?

I've actually done both at previous jobs. (not entirely true, I designed digital radios for police / fire departments, but close enough.)

When I lived in Chicago and had no garage I had a remote starter because in the winter months using my car often involved removing half an inch of ice and six inches of snow from my car before I could even get in it. With the car running it helped out the process a lot, but it still took me more than 3 minutes, so this law is pretty silly.

[LongWayToFall 0]

An electric oil pump that primed the system prior to the engine firing is a great idea. I have heard of them being used on aircraft before, but never seen any hard data. The manufacturers wish for everything in the car to definitely last the warranty period, after that they don't care. Most engines though will last a pretty long time, with proper care. Did you know that manufacturers almost loose money on car sales? All the profit comes from parts.....

[LongWayToFall 0]

Certainly, a middle ground is what is correct. Letting your car idle for an hour and flooring it when dead cold are both incorrect things to do. I am just trying to suggest, that people need to be careful with the process they use to warm up the engine. I would consider an engine that is "warmed up" to be capable of full throttle operation without damage. If you start your car and let it idle for 1 minute before you drive it gently, you might be loosing a very small amount of mileage off of your engine. However, if you start your car and drive it overly hard, it is possible the engine will be destroyed that very same day. There are some dumb people out there, and I see allot more of them damaging their engines by abuse than letting it idle too long. These days with the cost of gas, people wasting it by idling are becoming much less frequent, its too bad a law like this has to come about at an inopportune time. Maybe the people of the town (county, state, whatever area the law covers) feel like the government cares more. Woo Hoo! ban people wasting fuel! Woooooooo

[billvon 3,120]

>The bigger the explosion in the combustion chamber, the harder the
>crank is pushing to the outside of the bearing, and the more oil pressure
>is needed to prevent metal to metal contact.

Absolutely. But that's not created by the oil pump. To adequately resist such pressures, you need thousands of PSI (small area, high forces.) Oil pumps cannot create such pressures.

One of the most startling things I learned during my mech-E courses was that journal bearings generate their own pressures. Early on, an inventor tried to do what seemed to make the most sense - pumped oil directly into the high pressure area of the bearing. It didn't work well. So he created a "reservoir" of oil, without any pumping, that just kept oil there. He ran it under load, and the reservoir exploded. He tried again with a stronger reservoir. It exploded too.

At which point he said "hey, I think I just discovered something!" The reservoir was getting pressurized to thousands of PSI by the action of the bearing, not through any pump pressures.

Oil pressure is indeed important - because sufficient oil pressure must be maintained to keep the bearing completely wetted. This allows the normal self-pressurization of the bearing to occur.

(We may be saying the same things here.)

[kelpdiver 2]

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The manufacturers wish for everything in the car to definitely last the warranty period, after that they don't care.

Why did Toyota and Honda eat into the sales of Big 3 so dramatically in the 80s and 90s? Because their cars had a reputation of being reliable and long lasting.

They care. It's a competitive disadvantage to have your cars falling apart at 61000 miles.