billvon 3,120 #26 June 10, 2008 >How do you deal with an hybrid when it is -40 out? 1) The preheat water goes into the defroster initially to give it a "jump start" when it's cold out 2) If it's cold and the defroster or heater is on, it will run the engine no matter what to get extra heat 3) The Toyota hybrids will start the engine after about 10 seconds when you first start the car; mine is modified so it doesn't do that (gets a bit better fuel economy that way.) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
LongWayToFall 0 #27 June 10, 2008 Doesn't complete its warmup? are you kidding? if the engine had no cooling fans for the radiator, the engine would boil over and overheat leading to the destruction of the engine. This is why you cannot stay in one place too long on an engine in something like a dirt bike, you need to have air flowing into the radiator. Idling or driving, the engine completes it's warmup when the thermostat starts to open Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
LongWayToFall 0 #28 June 10, 2008 I stick to my statement, if you are going to be using full power such as getting onto a freeway, you must let the engine warm up a considerable amount. If you feel like searching online a bunch more (hopefully not on websites tailored for people who know nothing of cars) why don't you look up how long aircraft engines are required to warm up before they can take off (full power). Nevermind the fact that an aircooled engine warms up much faster than a liquid cooled one, also nevermind that the piston to cylinder clearance on these engines is much greater than on an automobile. Whatever time they give, you can bet is going to be less time then you would want to put full power to your car. There is a big difference between using the car for what it was designed for (full throttle) and only applying a small amount of gas to get you to the freeway or whatever local destination. The reason I said that you should let your engine warm up for a short time even if you are are planning on just slowing driving it, is because you need to let your oil warm up enough that the bearings are being sufficiently lubricated. When the engine is cold the oil is very thick, the oil pressure is very high, and the quantity of oil reaching the bearings is low. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
LongWayToFall 0 #29 June 10, 2008 Long as possible relative to starting and putting it in drive right away. I can bet you anything that your preheater is supplying heat to the engine before it fires, or when the engine does start, it does not immediately going to full power. If it goes straight to full power from being completely cold, then the only way you could keep it from cold seizing would be to have a huge piston to cylinder clearance, which would have so much blow by you would have to keep topping your oil off at every fill up. This reminds me of some of the WW2 aircraft used on the carriers, they were built so that they could go to full power (take off) with a warmup of only several seconds to fend off attacking japanese planes. The oil consumption of these engines was so large that they burned something like 100+ gallons of oil per tank of fuel. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #30 June 10, 2008 WW2 aircraft and air cooled dirt bikes? Let's talk about the Model T while we're at it. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
LongWayToFall 0 #31 June 10, 2008 Where did I say air cooled dirt bike? I am referring to engines that do not have cooling fans and rely on vehicle speed to cool the engine. You are obviously very ignorant when it comes to engines, because if you did indeed know anything about them you would read my previous post about new engines using metals of dissimilar expansion rates and tight tolerances, which require even more of a warm up period to ensure that damage does not happen. Air cooled engines like airplane engines and older, air cooled dirt bikes make a great example of how the engine warms up, and have specific properties about them that require a larger piston to cylinder clearance as I have already pointed out. Did you know that after climbing to altitude and dropping jumpers, a cessna pilot must be very careful not to let the engine cool down rapidly? This is because the cylinders (which have the cooling fins on them) will decrease in temperature rapidly and shrink, while the pistons remain hot and expanded. The piston to cylinder clearance is reduced so much that the engine cold seizes, requiring the engine to be rebuilt. The same thing can happen on the ground before take off, if the piston is allowed to heat up and expand faster than the cylinder. Luckily, aircraft engines heat up very quickly because the cylinders are so thin. This is not the case in your car, where the sleeves/block is very thick. So, what this boils down to, is I DOUBLE DOG DARE YOU to get into your car when it is completely cold (overnight) and start it immediately hopping on the freeway using full power and hold it there. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jenfly00 0 #32 June 10, 2008 Quote Quote Quote If you just hop in your car and floor it, you run the risk of the pistons expanding too quickly for the sleeves to match, and it will cold seize. Who suggested starting it and flooring it? What a stupid strawman. 5 minute warmup - sorry, you're the one that's behind the times. The car doesn't complete its warmup just sitting there anyway. Odd - if I start the truck and let it idle for 5 minutes, the tempurature gauge has just started to lift off the peg. I guess it must be broken. You mean the temp gauge that measures the temp of the water in your radiator ...which doesn't flow through your engine until it reaches about 190 degrees F? I thought 'Basic Truck' was a required course in Texas. ----------------------- "O brave new world that has such people in it". Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
LongWayToFall 0 #33 June 10, 2008 Actually, the water temp gauge measures the coolant temperature circulating the block, not the radiator. When the temperature reaches 190f (or whatever the thermostat is set at) it allows the cold coolant from the radiator to begin mixing with the hot coolant in the block, regulating the temperature. If your thermostat got stuck, your engine would overheat and you would think that you are still at outside temp (radiator temp) if the gauge was in the radiator Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,150 #34 June 10, 2008 Quote Actually, the water temp gauge measures the coolant temperature circulating the block, not the radiator. When the temperature reaches 190f (or whatever the thermostat is set at) it allows the cold coolant from the radiator to begin mixing with the hot coolant in the block, regulating the temperature. If your thermostat got stuck, your engine would overheat and you would think that you are still at outside temp (radiator temp) if the gauge was in the radiator That's EXACTLY how one of my cars works. The gauge IS in the radiator header tank.You are trying to make general rules about car design when there are none to be made..... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
airdvr 210 #35 June 10, 2008 Let's get back on track here. I paid for the gas, I'll use it however I want to. If I want to let my car sit in the driveway idling all day that's my right. Unless the powers that be want to start subsidizing my fuel expenses thay can kiss my a^%.Please don't dent the planet. Destinations by Roxanne Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #36 June 10, 2008 Quote Let's get back on track here. ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,150 #37 June 10, 2008 QuoteLet's get back on track here. I paid for the gas, I'll use it however I want to. If I want to let my car sit in the driveway idling all day that's my right. Unless the powers that be want to start subsidizing my fuel expenses thay can kiss my a^%. Your fuel expenses are already subsidized. The price you pay for gas doesn't include the cost of environmental damage that future generations will have to pay to remedy, nor does it factor in costs of energy sustainability.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,120 #38 June 10, 2008 > Long as possible relative to starting and putting it in drive right away. That strategy will result in your car not making it as far before you need a new engine - because your engine will be running for a lot of time while the car isn't moving. >I can bet you anything that your preheater is supplying heat to the >engine before it fires . . . It supplies heat to the heater core, actually. >If it goes straight to full power from being completely cold . . . No one's talking about that. When you need to use your car you start it, put it in gear, pull out of the parking space/driveway, get on an access road - and then get on the freeway. It turns out that is a great way to warm up an engine. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #39 June 10, 2008 Quote So, what this boils down to, is I DOUBLE DOG DARE YOU to get into your car when it is completely cold (overnight) and start it immediately hopping on the freeway using full power and hold it there. I already replied to this stupid strawman. I start my engine and drive to the freeway. It's about 2 miles from here, so the engine is doing just fine by the time its ready for WFO POWER, DUDE! Of course, at 4.4/gallon, what dumb shit is going full throttle just to get in traffic? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnealtx 0 #40 June 10, 2008 Quote Quote Quote Quote If you just hop in your car and floor it, you run the risk of the pistons expanding too quickly for the sleeves to match, and it will cold seize. Who suggested starting it and flooring it? What a stupid strawman. 5 minute warmup - sorry, you're the one that's behind the times. The car doesn't complete its warmup just sitting there anyway. Odd - if I start the truck and let it idle for 5 minutes, the tempurature gauge has just started to lift off the peg. I guess it must be broken. You mean the temp gauge that measures the temp of the water in your radiator ...which doesn't flow through your engine until it reaches about 190 degrees F? I thought 'Basic Truck' was a required course in Texas. I guess science or reading comprehension aren't your strong suits either, are they? The claim was made that the engine doesn't complete it's warmup sitting with the engine running. I provided evidence that the engine does, in fact, continue to warm up "just sitting there". Is there some in that you'd like to refute?Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
piper17 1 #41 June 10, 2008 Another idiotic, virtually uneforceable law. Heck, you aren't supposed to talk on a cell phone when driving in CT unless you have a hands-free device. What a crock as this goes on ALL the time. The police have better things to do....in theory, at least."A man can never have too much red wine, too many books, or too much ammunition"...Rudyard Kipling Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
LongWayToFall 0 #42 June 10, 2008 Your car's gauge is not an engine temperature gauge, it is a radiator temperature gauge. The designer of the vehicle was pretty fucking dumb, and I can bet that the vehicle is of the carburetor era, because any fuel injection system is going to need the temperature of the actual engine to make fueling changes. So, I WILL make general rules about engines, if it is fuel injected, it needs the temperature of the engine. Either you have 2 sensors, you are reading the gauge wrong or don't know what you are looking at, or the car has a carburetor. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,120 #43 June 10, 2008 >You mean the temp gauge that measures the temp of the water in your >radiator ...which doesn't flow through your engine until it reaches about >190 degrees F? Actually the water in your radiator stays pretty cool until the ENGINE reaches around 180-190F. At that point the thermostat opens and water flows into the radiator. The radiator cools the water and returns it to the engine. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
LongWayToFall 0 #44 June 10, 2008 The largest cause of damage to an engine is the first few seconds of startup, because of the lack of oil pressure. This causes something like 80% of damage. If you put the car into drive before it builds adequate pressure, you are going to be doing major harm to the engine. This is also why you should wait a bit before pulling out, so that the oil temperature can increase and thin the oil out, supplying more to the bearings. So, you pull up to a place and have the option of shutting your car off or leaving it running, because you will only be inside for 3 minutes. You choose to shut the car off, and now when you restart it, you are causing damage. Multiply this by hundreds of times and it will catch up to you. Maybe that car left idling is going to still be on the road while yours is getting a new engine? Ok, so you start the car, put it into drive and head to the freeway. The length of that access road is going to be a major factor, if it happens to be only a few hundred yards long, the risk of cold seizing is very real, if you require using lots of throttle to get onto the freeway. The high rpms needed to cruise on the freeway (for most vehicles) also heats the engine up very quickly. Nobody is arguing if driving your car right after starting it is a good way to warm it up. It is obvious that it will warm up much faster than a car left idling. The question is, at what point will your engine get damaged if it is warmed up too quickly? This is different for all engines, and I doubt solid data exists for each one. So, if you actually care about your engine, you will not drive it like you normally do right after startup. Personally, I will not use more than %25 throttle until the temp gauge is it least registering, (120 degrees, thermostat set to open 190) and full throttle only when it is at 190 degrees. Bill- I think your hybrid is a lousy example of this situation, your gas pedal does not even directly control the engine's throttle. The computer can set it to whatever it wants, to make sure the engine warms up at a moderate pace. Most vehicles though, can certainly be destroyed by warming up too quickly Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #45 June 10, 2008 QuoteAnother idiotic, virtually uneforceable law. a local radio personality went to the court house and sat there, idling his car and calling over cops to give him a ticket. The cops were a bit embarrassed about it and finally one gave him a ticket - for a law against leaving your keys unattended in the car. But not for idling over 3 minutes. so it's an idiotic law, but at least it's redundant with another idiotic law already on the books ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
LongWayToFall 0 #46 June 10, 2008 QuoteI already replied to this stupid strawman What, so you can't directly reply to me, you have to pretend you are pleading your case to a jury of keyboard jockeys? Yes you did reply to me. Your reply contained information that made it obvious that you are not competent when it comes to the internal workings of an engine. (idling does not warm it up) Therefore, I will suggest the notion of you shutting the fuck up or providing information that is worthwhile. P.S. You never know what the freeway will be doing when you get on it, and if there is an 18 wheeler in the slow lane and a short merge, you can bet any "dumbshit" motorist is going to be using full power. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #47 June 10, 2008 Ok - direct reply. You're completely wrong in almost everything you've written to this thread. It's actually pretty amazing that you can have that many facts incorrect. I'm just waiting now for you to start plugging the engine oil treatments. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,150 #48 June 10, 2008 Quote Your car's gauge is not an engine temperature gauge, it is a radiator temperature gauge. The designer of the vehicle was pretty fucking dumb, and I can bet that the vehicle is of the carburetor era, because any fuel injection system is going to need the temperature of the actual engine to make fueling changes. So, I WILL make general rules about engines, if it is fuel injected, it needs the temperature of the engine. Either you have 2 sensors, you are reading the gauge wrong or don't know what you are looking at, or the car has a carburetor. No, that's not correct. ANY fuel injection system does NOT need engine temperature. Most recent automobile systems do on account of emissions controls, but there are fuel injected vehicles dating back to the 60s and before that don't have such luxuries. Neither do fuel injected aero engines, like the Lyc IO360, fit your "general rule about engines". As far as not knowing much about my vehicle, I rebuilt it myself from the frame up. I think I know every nut, screw, washer and bolt in the car. By the way, you originally wrote "water temperature gauge", not "engine temperature gauge". One of the things about this forum is that (most) people have memories, or at least can scroll up through the thread.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #49 June 10, 2008 all you guys arguing about the performance of your cars...... If we are on topic - whether you are right or wrong about the mechanical and thermodynamic properties of your respective vehicles...., are you advocating that laws need to be passed to tell people how to idle their cars? or even if an owner can choose to leave his keys in his car? Is that the point? Or is this just a pissing match between nerdy engineering types to see who's correct or not on some moot-to-the-topic technical digression? ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,120 #50 June 10, 2008 >are you advocating that laws need to be passed to tell people how to idle their cars? Some, yes. A law that says "no idling under intake vents for buildings" is fine, and some of those already exist. However, this _particular_ law is dumb, and isn't needed. >Or is this just a pissing match . . . More like entertainment. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
