Society and morality.

[vortexring 0]

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An atheist can arguably do whatever he or she likes morally. Not through a fear of any consequences, but through a lack of standard social morality.

Yes, an atheist can do whatever they like morally - just as any other person on this planet. What stops any of them from doing something "immoral?" Just because there is a list of do's and don'ts doesn't mean that any one person will adhere to them.

Yes, that's rather obvious. Consider a society rather than the individual.

'for it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "chuck 'im out, the brute!" But it's "saviour of 'is country" when the guns begin to shoot.'

[jakee 1,611]

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It isn't necessary to compare. I said earlier: '...if we consider moral behaviour 1000 years ago was apparantly a great deal worse, despite the vast, vast majority of the populace being religious'.

I'm not talking about pre-industrial, non-democratic feudal civilisations 1000 years ago, I'm talking about a fellow 1st world country in the here and now. It is necessary to compare.

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The point therefore negates your comparison, because yours doesn't seem to take into account the misuse and misapplication of religion, which is essentially my further point.

No - it's you who have to take into account the misuse of religion. If you think that religion is being misused and misapplied in the USA then you have to explain how that won't be the case here if religiosity suddenly increases.

In fact, you're going to have to explain how religiosity is going to increase. You think that religion is the solution - how exactly do you plan on making more people religious?

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[vortexring 0]

Good questions Jakee, although I figured it'd be apparant I am taking the misuse of religion into account, as it's what I've been harping on about.

I dunno the answers; maybe burn and torture all the unbelievers I suppose...

'for it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "chuck 'im out, the brute!" But it's "saviour of 'is country" when the guns begin to shoot.'

[jakee 1,611]

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Good questions Jakee, although I figured it'd be apparant I am taking the misuse of religion into account, as it's what I've been harping on about.

You haven't taken it into account - you've simply used it as an excuse to dodge almost every question that's been asked of you. "Oh, that doesn't count - misuse of religion, in my society it'll be different!" "I don't need to answer that, missapplied religion, we're not going to have any of that in my vision!" You've even discounted my questions about the USA on the grounds of misused religion.

So how, in your view of the future of the UK, are we to believe that religion won't be misused again?

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[jcd11235 0]

Upon reflection, it appears that what vortexring would like to see is a society in which everyone adheres to the practices, if not beliefs, of Confucianism.

Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials!

[vortexring 0]

You're beginning to sound confused and frustrated; to the point of making up statements again. Just read what's there, it isn't necessary to make up your own meanings. That's called being silly. You'll have to show me where I've wrote about this vision, as I don't recall having written about one.

Still, you're correct in the fact I've discounted your questions over the USA. Sorry you're upset by this; cry me a river. I gave you my explanations on the very first thread of this post.

Regarding your last question, the key area would be exactly how much misuse would there be? Who can answer that? If the subtle encouragement of religion is to be nurtured for the social common good, surely it's misuse could only be discouraged, as it's against the common good.

More importantly, what's your opinion of Britian and morality today? Do you believe there's been little change over the past 20 years?

'for it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "chuck 'im out, the brute!" But it's "saviour of 'is country" when the guns begin to shoot.'

[jakee 1,611]

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Still, you're correct in the fact I've discounted your questions over the USA. Sorry you're upset by this; cry me a river. I gave you my explanations on the very first thread of this post.

One more time for the cheap seats - a statement about comparisons with 1000 year old civilisations being useless does not give you any basis for refusing to accept comparisons with the USA today. Remember the very thing you emphasised in your first post, that you were interested in today?

How has religion been misused in the USA as to make the comparison invalid, and why are we to believe that the same thing wouldn't happen in the UK if religiosity increased?

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Regarding your last question, the key area would be exactly how much misuse would there be? Who can answer that? If the subtle encouragement of religion is to be nurtured for the social common good, surely it's misuse could only be discouraged, as it's against the common good.

Who would be doing this subtle encouragement? Who would be doing this nurturing? The only people with that kind of overarching power and influence is the government, surely?

Do I need to remind you that for over a decade we've been living under an intensely religious Prime Minister who's reign has been peppered with subtle and not-so-subtle encouragements of faith and religion (including state funded 'faith' schools)? Do I need to remind you that this Prime Ministers rule has also brought the (according to you) major decline in societal morals that you've been complaining about, and a massive growth in domestic Islamic radicalism?

If you want to guarantee that religion is going to be used properly and not misused (as you have said is the case with every single example that has been brought against you in this thread) you'll need to be a lot more specific than that.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[vortexring 0]

Before I address your points, answer me this:

Do you believe Tony Blair is an honest man?

A yes or no shall suffice.

'for it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "chuck 'im out, the brute!" But it's "saviour of 'is country" when the guns begin to shoot.'

[jakee 1,611]

Not particularly more or less than any other high profile politician.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[Royd 0]

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Would you rather have an employee who operates on the premise that a quality life leads to an eternal reward, and therefore, does his best all day long, regardless of who's watching, or someone who's default position is to break rules, and screw the man? As long as someone in authority is watching, then he's at his task, but the minute the boss is gone, he starts slacking.

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What you've just said is that religion is good for business and this is one of the ideas that drives me -away- from religion; that religion is a tool used by those in power to control the masses.

If that is all religion is, then it's bullshit.

You didn't answer the question. Which person would you prefer to hire. The one who does a good job, as unto the Lord, or the schmoe who sees you as nothing more than a paycheck, and looks to screw you over, at every turn?

[jakee 1,611]

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You didn't answer the question. Which person would you prefer to hire. The one who does a good job, as unto the Lord, or the schmoe who see you as nothing more than a paycheck, and looks to screw you over at every turn?

If the choice is between someone who works and someone who doesn't then I'd take the one who works any day - the religious aspect is irrelevant to the choice.

Now all you have to do is convince me that the average believer is a harder worker than the average non-believer. Good luck

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[Royd 0]

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In fact, you're going to have to explain how religiosity is going to increase. You think that religion is the solution - how exactly do you plan on making more people religious?

Well, sir. When you lay a bunch of rules on your children, Thou shalt not steal, thou shalt not lie, etc. etc. and they tell you to bite it because you've got no authority, what are you going to do?

[warpedskydiver 0]

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In fact, you're going to have to explain how religiosity is going to increase. You think that religion is the solution - how exactly do you plan on making more people religious?

Well, sir. When you lay a bunch of rules on your children, Thou shalt not steal, thou shalt not lie, etc. etc. and they tell you to bite it because you've got no authority, what are you going to do?

Hand them the phone and tell them to call and ambulance, they are going to need it.

[quade 4]

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If that is all religion is, then it's bullshit.

You didn't answer the question. Which person would you prefer to hire. The one who does a good job, as unto the Lord, or the schmoe who sees you as nothing more than a paycheck, and looks to screw you over, at every turn?

I didn't answer the question because it's a ridiculous hypothetical based on the assumption that those are the only two choices and those choices are true in all cases.

Clearly not.

If religion was the key to a "moral" life, if an knowing that an omniscient god was watching over your every move and keeping you on the straight and narrow path, if being devout in their beliefs prevented sin, then wouldn't it follow that priests, pastors and boy scout leaders, of all people, wouldn't molest children?

No. It simply doesn't work that way.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[jakee 1,611]

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In fact, you're going to have to explain how religiosity is going to increase. You think that religion is the solution - how exactly do you plan on making more people religious?

Well, sir. When you lay a bunch of rules on your children, Thou shalt not steal, thou shalt not lie, etc. etc. and they tell you to bite it because you've got no authority, what are you going to do?

Firstly, if they're my kids then I would have quite a lot of authority over them. In fact, I'd rule their entire world, wouldn't I?

Secondly, I see absolutely no relation between what you've quoted and the reply you've written

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[Skyrad 0]

I think it boils down to to a few things.

1) Rampant materialism reinforced by a media that now is inside your home in the form of TV, Radio, Magazines, Newspapers and of course the internet. Never before have people been faced with such a total bombardment of advertsment and selling of unrealistic dreams that raise the individuals expectations beyond what they are able to achive thus leadng to frustration which in turn turns to anger.

2) A lack of discipline in modern day society means that they are less able to control their anger.

3) By having unrealistic expectations of life and a focus on materialism rather than society, human life devalues and along with the lack of discipline and increaed anger and frustration violence against the person is likely to rise, especially when linked to the next point...

4) A lack of answerability. In the past communities were smaller and families lived closer together with cousins and Aunts and Uncles being a short walk away living in the same neighbourhood. Ths meant that there was a greater likelihood of someone recognising you if you infringed the social norms, in turn you were less likely to get away with things. You'd bring shame on your family and they would all suffer from your actions. When people were religious they felt they were answerable to a all knowing God who would punish them, with a decline in religious belife there is a decline in that answerbility.
In todays western societies people live miles from their families even in different continents and live in cities and towns of millions or hundereds of thousands where they are annoymous.

5) Mobility, linked to the last point on answerability and annonimity. Where as in the past individuals were limited to the distance the could walk they now have great mobility which is easily affordable by public transport, personal transport and affordable air travel. People on holiday often act in ways they wouldn't if they were at home, why? Answerability, no body knows them when they are on holiday.

6) There is no shame in society anymore. Only for certain crimes, incest, peodophilia, maybe rape. Murder is a badge of honour amoungst those without any. ASBO's are worn like medals.

7) Women mistook equality with a licence to emulate the very worst loutish behaviour of men without the checks. If a man wants to get laid the check is the woman, if a woman wants to get laid its a forgone conclusion. Hence a rise in promiscuity.

8) A wider lack of personal responsibility, in society today people have a great spectrum of excuses to choose from than they ever had in the past. They were abused as a child, they grew up without a Nintendo, They're misunderstood, They have an addiction, (addicted to sex, gambling, tobacco, etc..) it was societies fault that they stole or assulted someone They wern't responsible becasue they were suffering from (add a scenario) rage, or a behavioural syndrome. In the past they would have just been guilty of being a Nonce a theif or thug.

9) Because of pathetic individuals who perpetuate a PC climate by taking offence where none existed on behalf of people who wish they'd piss off and a over streched legal system which is in effect a toothless tiger and because of the previous points we get a vicous circle which is on a downwards spiral to social depravity.

When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy.
Lucius Annaeus Seneca

[Skyrad 0]

How would I fix it?

If I were Prime Minister.....

Over the next few decades the cost of food will spiral upwards as food for eating will compete with food for fuel. Natural resources will increase in cost (ie:Gas, Oil & water.) With the growth of India and China’s population of consumers with disposable income increases the cost of living will increase still further. The outcome of this scenario is that people in the west post the credit crunch with high interest rates and less affordable debt will help to curb rampant spending on consumer lifestyle goods and services, with a reduction of demand the prices for such goods and services will be raised increasing the effect of the situation.
This could go one of two ways, if the situation were used to help people turn away from materialism along with other changes to our society it could be used as a force for positive change.
The media would have to be influenced to turn away from the cult of celebrity and have a stronger focus on positive society programming, i.e.: programmes and articles that emphasise a cohesive society, social and personal responsibility and a move away from rampant commercialism while still remaining commercial elements (i.e. Not government owned.)
I would install discipline into the next generation Via the national role out of a pan-ethnic Young Leaders Academy’s based on the Eastside Young Leaders' Academy, greater funding for Cadet Units, Scouts and similar Youth movements which promote structured personal and social responsibility.
http://www.eyla.org.uk/about.htm

http://www.newstatesman.com/uk-politics/2008/04/lewis-discipline-policy

The media would encourage the promotion of celebrities who work for society rather than those who live off it.
The use of reality TV to make celebrities from ordinary people who go out of their way to make an improvement in the lives of others and who actively work for a cohesive, caring disciplined society. Make life expectations more real by showing real people living real lives making a real change not just by spending money but spending their time and energy.
A return of answerability by use of groups like the Young Leaders Academies and structured youth groups. Where family groups no longer are cohesive and supportive a similar structure needs to exist to take up the functions that it previously performed.
Greater support for cross denominational religious organisations to foster a increased cohesion in society.
I think in time people will reverse the trend of greater mobility in favour of staying closer to home on a day to day basis in order to reduce their expenditure on fuel costs. I would invest more in local leisure facilities and give tax breaks on Gym membership.
I’d also increase statutory paternity leave to allow father to take a greater part in the upbringing of their children. (in the UK currently its two weeks unpaid in Germany its combined paid leave of 14 months (with the father taking two months off)
Criminals would be forced to attend meetings of victims of crime including their own victim (if the victim wishes) to confront the repercussions and consequences of their personal actions.
Children in school would not only be taught about the biology of reproduction but would have Communication and relationship education installed into the national curriculum. During these lessons which would run throughout the course of both upper and lower school education they would learn how to effectively communicate with others, learn their responsibilities in society, learn about self respect and respect for others and the difference between that and fear. They would learn about sex in the context of a healthy committed relationship and the difference between discipline and abuse.
Children who commit crime should be made to apologise not only to their victims but to their school in front of an assembly before being sent to their punishment the severity of which should reflect the seriousness of their crime.
The legal system should have the cuffs taken off it. Criminals should be forced to work, those that do not would face extended sentences. Work should be for the benefit of society i.e working on roads, picking up litter from motorway verges, cleaning graffiti, criminals of non violent crime without any history of violence should where possible be made to work with non criminals. To address the overcrowding issue their should be an early release scheme for criminals of non violent crime (either against the person or property) this should not extend to criminals who have conned old age pensioners and should be on a case by case review.
Prison ships should be commissioned for the worst of the worst and moored in the north sea. If more prisons are required in the short term then they should be built.
Criminals who commit crimes of any nature who are not from the UK should be deported to their country of nationality regardless of its Human Rights record.
For serious crime this should occur with immediate effect following the serving out of their sentence, their government should be billed for the cost to the UK government of their incarceration and subsequent deportation. Deportation should be accompanied with a life time ban on re-entering the UK breach of which would be punishable by a life sentence on a prison hulk in the North Sea.
Crime against the person or against society such as burglary or drug offences should incur higher sentencing than it does at present.
Instead of Gap years kids getting stoned in Thailand I would introduce a Volunteer Corp that is heavily subsidised to allow Gap year kids to go to the third world to work on irrigation projects and so on so that they learn team work and to appreciate what they have in this country. I would also make this option available to school leavers who either do not want to or can not afford to go to University. Schools would also have lessons in Brick laying, Plumbing and Carpentry introduced at the start of secondary school for those children who wish to pursue a non academic trade to ensure that they leave school with a decent start and a better self esteem than allot of their current peers do.

When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy.
Lucius Annaeus Seneca

[jakee 1,611]

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The media would have to be influenced to turn away from the cult of celebrity and have a stronger focus on positive society programming, i.e.: programmes and articles that emphasise a cohesive society, social and personal responsibility and a move away from rampant commercialism while still remaining commercial elements (i.e. Not government owned.)

Influenced?

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[Skyrad 0]

Yes influenced. The media is influenced all the time, by big business by government and by public attitude. Influenced doesn't need to imply anything sinister.

When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy.
Lucius Annaeus Seneca

[jakee 1,611]

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Yes influenced. The media is influenced all the time, by big business by government and by public attitude. Influenced doesn't need to imply anything sinister.

That's not an answer. Who is going to influence the media to change in the way you want, and how are they going to do it?

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[Skyrad 0]

It wasn't much of a question.

However, as you have elaborated on it. I'm not in PR or Communications but there is some very successful people that I would employ who are. Esentially the media is just business, its run by a few individuals who run massive organisations that sell what their 'CEO' wants them to. The sucessful PR and Communications companies have access to these people as would the government. These CEO's are businessmen and if the deal is sold to them in the right way and its to their advantage to assist the governments message then they will. It simply has to be worth their while. What do they want? Thats negotiable.
If you want to know how PR companies work then go ask Max Cliford max@maxclifford.com
Remember, I'm the bloody Prime Minister!

When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy.
Lucius Annaeus Seneca

[jakee 1,611]

Tony Blair ran the most PR obsessed, spin savvy government there's ever been. How supportive has the media been of his message?

I'm sorry, but saying you'd hire a PR man to convince the gutter press to give up their lifeblood of celebrity reporting isn't a very well thought out portion of your plan.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[Skyrad 0]

Not just a PR man but a whole PR and Communications campaign, and getting onside the few individuals who own the gutter press. Also you seem to have a very short memory, before Iraq the media were eating out of Tonys hand. Also its not so much a giving up of the Celebrity cult but a change of direction for it. TB worked the whole celeb thing to his personal advantage (remember cool Britania?) That was doomed to fail as the only people it assisted was him Blur and the Gallaher brothers etc...
But this could work when implemented along with the other points for change.

What is your suggestion for improvement?

When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy.
Lucius Annaeus Seneca

[jakee 1,611]

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Not just a PR man but a whole PR and Communications campaign, and getting onside the few individuals who own the gutter press.

What can you give Rupert Murdoch that'd make him stop putting tits and celebrities in The Sun? He's big enough and ugly enough that he doesn't need to be on anyones side but his own.

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Also you seem to have a very short memory, before Iraq the media were eating out of Tonys hand.

Oh really? No one was grumbling about the sheer volume of spin until Iraq happened? Alastair Campbell was a popular figure before the invasion?

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What is your suggestion for improvement?

I'd steal a lot of your other suggestions. I don't buy this one though.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[Skyrad 0]

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I'd steal a lot of your other suggestions. I don't buy this one though.

Maybe you'd like to pop around to Number 10 and we can discuss it over a breakfast briefing?

When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy.
Lucius Annaeus Seneca