jcd11235 0
QuoteRight, you call them spiritual, but not those who believe in God, who is called spirit by the same Gospel that you know so much about.
What are you talking about? I never made any such claim. I said one does not have to believe in a god in order to be spiritual, not that people who believe in God are not spiritual.
QuoteIt was sarcasm, something you should be quite familiar with.
That doesn't make it any less reasonable.
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QuoteQuoteRight, you call them spiritual, but not those who believe in God, who is called spirit by the same Gospel that you know so much about.
What are you talking about? I never made any such claim. I said one does not have to believe in a god in order to be spiritual, not that people who believe in God are not spiritual.Quote
"Are you claiming that taoist and bhuddist lack spirituality" (this from your initial reply)
-No, I am saying that they simply call God something else. God is good and enlightenment is good. Even your enlightenment of the universe is good, spirituality requires a path of something greater than the self...wisdom that brings enlightenment is greater than the person it enlightens, but that does not mean that wisdom doesnt belong to something. I believe that wisdom belongs to goodness, life and love, as that seems to be the tone of all true wisdom. I have said over and over again what I think makes a person spiritual, that is why I have met with different perceptions, but those different perceptions have really done nothing to explain what they think makes a man spiritual...which was the question at the beginning, and still has yet to be answered.QuoteIt was sarcasm, something you should be quite familiar with.
That doesn't make it any less reasonable.
-Two different perceptions. What is completely unreasonable to one is reasonable to another."We didn't start the fire"
QuoteQuoteInteresting. Since this is one of God's attributes, it appears that you are simply exchanging personal viewpoints of what God is or isn't.
Are you defining God as the universe (i.e. God = universe = God)? A self aware universe is a scientifically observable phenomenon. Defining God as that universe is certainly not unheard of. However, by that definition, God's laws are the laws of physics, etc., immutable natural laws, impossible to violate. Such a God would have no capacity to meddle with the affairs of man, except by those natural laws.Quote
I would not argue against such a definition of God. But I would point out that such a god would not be supernatural or have supernatural power. Nor could any person be any more the "son of god" than any other person.
What about truth? If there are immutable laws of physics, they surely operate under the truth right, yet it seems you can have truth without physics. So the law wouldnt necessarily be about physics, but about the greater truth in physics, making truth greater than even the laws of physics. Surely truth would meddle in even the affairs of man."We didn't start the fire"
jcd11235 0
QuoteWhat about truth? If there are immutable laws of physics, they surely operate under the truth right, yet it seems you can have truth without physics. So the law wouldnt necessarily be about physics, but about the greater truth in physics, making truth greater than even the laws of physics.
What concept are you incorrectly calling truth? Truth is that which in accordance with fact or reality. Also, notice I said "immutable natural laws" and gave laws of physics as examples. While I suspect that most, if not all, natural laws can be reduced to laws of physics, I'm not going to make that assertion in this discussion.
How you possibly came to the conclusion that truth is greater than immutable natural laws with God defined as the universe is beyond me.
QuoteSurely truth would meddle in even the affairs of man.
No, it wouldn't and couldn't.
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QuoteQuoteWhat about truth? If there are immutable laws of physics, they surely operate under the truth right, yet it seems you can have truth without physics. So the law wouldnt necessarily be about physics, but about the greater truth in physics, making truth greater than even the laws of physics.
What concept are you incorrectly calling truth? Truth is that which in accordance with fact or reality. Also, notice I said "immutable natural laws" and gave laws of physics as examples. While I suspect that most, if not all, natural laws can be reduced to laws of physics, I'm not going to make that assertion in this discussion.
How you possibly came to the conclusion that truth is greater than immutable natural laws with God defined as the universe is beyond me.Quote
Of course it is because you dont want to believe that God is even real, or that he is capable of loving us in ways that go beyond even our own imagination and straight into a power that is undeniable and dare I say, miraculous.
Is there or is there not something purely true in the laws of physics? Truth is what makes a law immutable, without truth a law cannot be immutable, therefore, truth is greater.QuoteSurely truth would meddle in even the affairs of man.
No, it wouldn't and couldn't.
Truth doesnt meddle in the affairs of man? Remember that next time you make a promise to someone or next time you answer a question with a yes or no."We didn't start the fire"
maadmax 0
Are you defining God as the universe (i.e. God = universe = God)? A self aware universe is a scientifically observable phenomenon. Defining God as that universe is certainly not unheard of. However, by that definition, God's laws are the laws of physics, etc., immutable natural laws, impossible to violate. Such a God would have no capacity to meddle with the affairs of man, except by those natural laws .
I would not argue against such a definition of God. But I would point out that such a god would not be supernatural or have supernatural power. Nor could any person be any more the "son of god" than any other person.***
Yes, my personal view of God encompasses the laws of physics and the creation of the universe as an expression of His creativity. Self awareness is another of Gods traits that He passes along to us.
I see the Spiritual Laws of God just as immutable and inviolable as the natural laws. Which is why the wages of sin is alienation from God, no exceptions. A restoring force was necessary to satisfy the immutable Spiritual Laws of God regarding the consequences of sin. That force came through the work of Christ during His life on the earth.
______________________________________
I would not argue against such a definition of God. But I would point out that such a god would not be supernatural or have supernatural power. Nor could any person be any more the "son of god" than any other person.***
Yes, my personal view of God encompasses the laws of physics and the creation of the universe as an expression of His creativity. Self awareness is another of Gods traits that He passes along to us.
I see the Spiritual Laws of God just as immutable and inviolable as the natural laws. Which is why the wages of sin is alienation from God, no exceptions. A restoring force was necessary to satisfy the immutable Spiritual Laws of God regarding the consequences of sin. That force came through the work of Christ during His life on the earth.
______________________________________
jcd11235 0
QuoteOf course it is because you dont want to believe that God is even real, or that he is capable of loving us in ways that go beyond even our own imagination and straight into a power that is undeniable and dare I say, miraculous.
Undeniable, huh? Let's test that theory. Let me go on record as saying your supernatural god does not exist. In other words, I just denied him. I guess he's not so undeniable after all.
QuoteIs there or is there not something purely true in the laws of physics? Truth is what makes a law immutable, without truth a law cannot be immutable, therefore, truth is greater.
The immutable natural laws are true because they're immutable, not vice versa.
QuoteTruth doesnt meddle in the affairs of man? Remember that next time you make a promise to someone or next time you answer a question with a yes or no.
Okay. Those things have nothing to do with the conversation at hand, but just for you, I'll try to remember to do that, I promise.
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jcd11235 0
Quote
Are you defining God as the universe (i.e. God = universe = God)? A self aware universe is a scientifically observable phenomenon. Defining God as that universe is certainly not unheard of. However, by that definition, God's laws are the laws of physics, etc., immutable natural laws, impossible to violate. Such a God would have no capacity to meddle with the affairs of man, except by those natural laws .
I would not argue against such a definition of God. But I would point out that such a god would not be supernatural or have supernatural power. Nor could any person be any more the "son of god" than any other person.***
Yes, my personal view of God encompasses the laws of physics and the creation of the universe as an expression of His creativity. Self awareness is another of Gods traits that He passes along to us.
I see the Spiritual Laws of God just as immutable and inviolable as the natural laws. Which is why the wages of sin is alienation from God, no exceptions. A restoring force was necessary to satisfy the immutable Spiritual Laws of God regarding the consequences of sin. That force came through the work of Christ during His life on the earth.
You seem to misunderstand what I wrote. I asked, "Are you defining God as the universe (i.e. God = universe = God)?" In other words, God is the universe, no more, no less (i.e. a natural god). That is significantly different than defining god as the creator of the universe (i.e. a supernatural god), an idea for which there is absolutely no supporting evidence. By the defining god as the universe, No creature could be any closer to god than any other creature, including Jesus Christ, if he actually existed.
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QuoteQuoteOf course it is because you dont want to believe that God is even real, or that he is capable of loving us in ways that go beyond even our own imagination and straight into a power that is undeniable and dare I say, miraculous.
Undeniable, huh? Let's test that theory. Let me go on record as saying your supernatural god does not exist. In other words, I just denied him. I guess he's not so undeniable after all.Quote
The power is undeniable. Like when someone is in love, there is an emotional feeling of power and goodness that fills them with energy. If that love is recieved as true in the heart, it can change a mans entire perception. The power of love is undeniable.QuoteIs there or is there not something purely true in the laws of physics? Truth is what makes a law immutable, without truth a law cannot be immutable, therefore, truth is greater.
The immutable natural laws are true because they're immutable, not vice versa.Quote
On this we disagree."We didn't start the fire"
jcd11235 0
QuoteThe power is undeniable. Like when someone is in love, there is an emotional feeling of power and goodness that fills them with energy. If that love is recieved as true in the heart, it can change a mans entire perception. The power of love is undeniable.
Sigh. Power is defined as unit of work per unit of time. Can love do work? E.g. I love skydiving, but that love alone doesn't get the plane to altitude. So, yes, I can deny the power of love. I have that ability since I'm not Huey Lewis.
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QuoteQuoteThe power is undeniable. Like when someone is in love, there is an emotional feeling of power and goodness that fills them with energy. If that love is recieved as true in the heart, it can change a mans entire perception. The power of love is undeniable.
Sigh. Power is defined as unit of work per unit of time. Can love do work? E.g. I love skydiving, but that love alone doesn't get the plane to altitude. So, yes, I can deny the power of love. I have that ability since I'm not Huey Lewis.
I guess this is a good a place as any to stop. Good conversation."We didn't start the fire"
jakee 1,596
QuoteThe same thing which gave you life in your mothers womb also gave you desires which only it can fill. That is, only life can fill you with life.
Only life can fill you with life? Ok, after you've printed that out and stuck it into your "My First Truism" book could you explain just what it is that is supposed to mean, and how it has any relevance at all to an argument in favour of the existence of god?
QuoteWhat I mean as far as the earth being self sustaining is just that. I never said it wasnt vulnerable to destruction, I said it is self sustainable...it doesnt need us.
Of course it doesn't. The earth was around for a good 4.5 Billion years before we came along, life on earth for more than 3 billion and it did pretty well for itself in that time. Who has ever said that the earth does need us?
QuoteJust look at nature, life has wisdom.
What does that mean? What do you mean when you say wisdom?
Do you want to have an ideagasm?
jakee 1,596
QuoteWhat about truth? If there are immutable laws of physics, they surely operate under the truth right, yet it seems you can have truth without physics. So the law wouldnt necessarily be about physics, but about the greater truth in physics, making truth greater than even the laws of physics. Surely truth would meddle in even the affairs of man.
What the hell are you talking about?
"True" is a word we use to tag a piece of information that is correct, "False" is another word we use to tag a piece of information that is not correct.
If you ask me the question "What is 2+2" I would give the answer "4" and that would be true. That does not mean that some sort of entity called truth has guided me to the correct answer, just that I know some basic addition.
Honestly, you can't just pick words at random and then argue by definition and common usage that these words must represent supernatural forces that have an objective existence.
Do you want to have an ideagasm?
kallend 2,150
QuoteQuoteWhat about truth? If there are immutable laws of physics, they surely operate under the truth right, yet it seems you can have truth without physics. So the law wouldnt necessarily be about physics, but about the greater truth in physics, making truth greater than even the laws of physics. Surely truth would meddle in even the affairs of man.
What the hell are you talking about?
"True" is a word we use to tag a piece of information that is correct, "False" is another word we use to tag a piece of information that is not correct.
If you ask me the question "What is 2+2" I would give the answer "4" and that would be true. That does not mean that some sort of entity called truth has guided me to the correct answer, just that I know some basic addition.
Honestly, you can't just pick words at random and then argue by definition and common usage that these words must represent supernatural forces that have an objective existence.
He can, and he does.
You are wasting your time arguing with someone who has his own definitions for words and concepts.
Remember, there is not one shred of objective evidence for the existence of any supernatural god, and that all arguments in favor of any one god apply just as well to the existence of all others, including the FSM.
...
The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.
The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.
maadmax 0
You seem to misunderstand what I wrote. I asked, "Are you defining God as the universe (i.e. God = universe = God)?" In other words, God is the universe, no more, no less (i.e. a natural god). That is significantly different than defining god as the creator of the universe (i.e. a supernatural god), an idea for which there is absolutely no supporting evidence. By the defining god as the universe, No creature could be any closer to god than any other creature, including Jesus Christ, if he actually existed.***
My personal view is that the universe with all of its physical laws is a visible manifestation of God. The universe is self aware, because God is self aware. It is the Physical part of God that gives the Spiritual a means of contact and expression. Like our bodies being the vehicle of our spiritual being. The perfect Nature of God is reflected in His manifested universal creation. The freedom He bestowed on us has been repaid by our corruption of His perfect creation.
As far as evidence, it surrounds us and speaks for itself.
_______________________________________
My personal view is that the universe with all of its physical laws is a visible manifestation of God. The universe is self aware, because God is self aware. It is the Physical part of God that gives the Spiritual a means of contact and expression. Like our bodies being the vehicle of our spiritual being. The perfect Nature of God is reflected in His manifested universal creation. The freedom He bestowed on us has been repaid by our corruption of His perfect creation.
As far as evidence, it surrounds us and speaks for itself.
_______________________________________
Amazon 7
QuoteMy personal view is that the universe with all of its physical laws is a visible manifestation of God. The universe is self aware, because God is self aware. It is the Physical part of God that gives the Spiritual a means of contact and expression. Like our bodies being the vehicle of our spiritual being. The perfect Nature of God is reflected in His manifested universal creation. The freedom He bestowed on us has been repaid by our corruption of His perfect creation.
As far as evidence, it surrounds us and speaks for itself.
I can and do agree with that assesment... BUT... there are those who expect EVERYONE to believe as they believe. Too many of the religious right want to foist their evangelical belif on this "christian" country.
Personally I do not want to live in a theocracy.
The last time that religion controlled most countries... we all call that period of history.. THE DARK AGES.
The same thing which gave you life in your mothers womb also gave you desires which only it can fill. That is, only life can fill you with life.
What I mean as far as the earth being self sustaining is just that. I never said it wasnt vulnerable to destruction, I said it is self sustainable...it doesnt need us. Just look at nature, life has wisdom.
I was using sarcasm in my initial post, I am sorry about that. I had only 5 minutes to reply and I should have waited and given it more thought. I find that I am becoming quite addicted to you all.
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