mnealtx 0
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QuoteName me a president in the last 75 years who has not ordered an attack on foreign soil. Okay, maybe Ford.
FDR - WWII. Okya, legitimate.
HST - Korea
DDE - Korea - ended it.
JFK - bay of Pigs and Vietnam
LBJ - Vietnam
Nixon - Vietnam - ended it
Carter - Iran to get the Hostages
Reagan - Grenada
Bush, GHW - Iraq, Panama
Clinton - Iraq bombings, Bosnia, Smoalia.
You're leaving out quite a few here.
Bush started Somalia, not Clinton. For Nixon, add in Cambodia and Chile, at the very least. Reagan needs Nicaragua under his name. Plus Libya.
As for the thread itself, Speedracer didn't intend for a honest discussion, given the convenient use of definitions. It was all editorial.
Amazon 7
Hey at least I defend Clinton with the truth.. you dont mind me telling truth on you .. now do you???? . Speaking of defending your Glorius Leader... how is what those of you who support anything your Imperious Leader does.. and the Baathist Dead enders that your Incompetent in Charge likes to deride??
Yes of course your right...and many many others who have fought and died for their country. I do see how you were using the term...Its just so frustrating to me that people do not know what is really going on with our soldiers. How dare we sit here and discuss what true patriotism is when there are young boys still spilling thier blood today over a war many of them dont agree with, BUT MANY OF THEM DO. For all you war protesters, I hope you at least recognize that your values (as you have been telling me all along) are not necessarily reflective of others. You ask who decides what is right and wrong, legal and illegal and you say your own government, then you criticise your own government for the mistakes they make, protesting a war that inevitably happened and somehow forgetting that your freedoms were gifts, whether you agree with how they were given or not....I dont even want to get started. This is ridiculous..
Disagree or Agree with the war, but dont pat yourselves on the back because you consider a protestor to be more patriotic than the soldier who serves. Rather why dont you fly into Iraq and Afghanistan and tell the soldiers yourselves. Do you think that they dont know all these things you are talking about? And yet, they serve still. Its no wonder they dont feel appreciated enough, they dont believe when we tell them they are, because of discussions like these.
Disagree or Agree with the war, but dont pat yourselves on the back because you consider a protestor to be more patriotic than the soldier who serves. Rather why dont you fly into Iraq and Afghanistan and tell the soldiers yourselves. Do you think that they dont know all these things you are talking about? And yet, they serve still. Its no wonder they dont feel appreciated enough, they dont believe when we tell them they are, because of discussions like these.
"We didn't start the fire"
Amazon 7
QuoteDisagree or Agree with the war, but dont pat yourselves on the back because you consider a protestor to be more patriotic than the soldier who serves. Rather why dont you fly into Iraq and Afghanistan and tell the soldiers yourselves. Do you think that they dont know all these things you are talking about? And yet, they serve still. Its no wonder they dont feel appreciated enough, they dont believe when we tell them they are, because of discussions like these.
So how do you feel about all the young repubican patirots out there that support this war and are crazy brave with every drop of blood of all those young soldiers.. but find 100 different excuses why its not them out there
mnealtx 0
QuoteIncompetent in Charge
C'mon, now... don't bring Nancy Pelosi into this, with all that 'swamp draining' and 'most ethical Congress' stuff...
Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706
jcd11235 0
QuoteAs opposed to stealing the silver when you move out, I suppose...
There's no one quite as dishonest as those who perpetuate known lies.
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QuoteQuoteDisagree or Agree with the war, but dont pat yourselves on the back because you consider a protestor to be more patriotic than the soldier who serves. Rather why dont you fly into Iraq and Afghanistan and tell the soldiers yourselves. Do you think that they dont know all these things you are talking about? And yet, they serve still. Its no wonder they dont feel appreciated enough, they dont believe when we tell them they are, because of discussions like these.
So how do you feel about all the young repubican patirots out there that support this war and are crazy brave with every drop of blood of all those young soldiers.. but find 100 different excuses why its not them out there
Surely you know the answer to that.
"We didn't start the fire"
jcd11235 0
QuoteIm sorry, I see caskets taken off planes all the time here with flags draped over them, so my perspective is a little different. There is a price for freedom whether we protest or not, and many have paid that with their own lives.
So, tell us, are the US troops that participated in the Abu Ghraib scandal patriots, too? As a former soldier, I believe military service is an insufficient condition to qualify one as a patriot. Certainly, most troops serve in such a manner as to represent their country honorably. Others, unfortunately, bring only disgrace in the eyes of their nation and the world.
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jcd11235 0
QuoteYou ask who decides what is right and wrong, legal and illegal and you say your own government, then you criticise your own government for the mistakes they make, protesting a war that inevitably happened and somehow forgetting that your freedoms were gifts, whether you agree with how they were given or not....I dont even want to get started.
You appear to have an extremely poor understanding of the value of civil protest in a free democratic society.
Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials!
Quote
ANYONE can rise above (or sink below) the circumstances of their birth.
Relative terms are probably meaningless for many/most babies born with fetal alcohol syndrome, addicted to hard drugs, or otherwise having birth complications / defects owing to their parents' choices.
Should a parent have the right to poison their bodies and unborn children at once? Or ought the state intervene?
My advice is to do what your parents did; get a job, sir. The bums will always lose. Do you hear me, Lebowski?
mnealtx 0
QuoteQuote
ANYONE can rise above (or sink below) the circumstances of their birth.
Relative terms are probably meaningless for many/most babies born with fetal alcohol syndrome, addicted to hard drugs, or otherwise having birth complications / defects owing to their parents' choices.
Should a parent have the right to poison their bodies and unborn children at once? Or ought the state intervene?
Rhetorical: Why is it Big Momma Government's responsibility to intervene? Why is it not the responsibility of friends/family?
Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706
QuoteQuoteYou ask who decides what is right and wrong, legal and illegal and you say your own government, then you criticise your own government for the mistakes they make, protesting a war that inevitably happened and somehow forgetting that your freedoms were gifts, whether you agree with how they were given or not....I dont even want to get started.
You appear to have an extremely poor understanding of the value of civil protest in a free democratic society.
I think it is clear that I dont hold understanding as high as I do the heart, but I have an opinion, I am sorry if they are not given with as much understanding as your own.
"We didn't start the fire"
jcd11235 0
QuoteEqual opportunity != equal outcome
ANYONE can rise above (or sink below) the circumstances of their birth.
Especially if they were born in a developed country other than the US or UK.
In the US, the median income growth rate since 1974 is less than one third the rate of productivity (per hour) increase. Or stated a different way, in the US, there is a significantly decreased reward for working harder compared to thirty-five years ago.
(Interestingly, median income increased during the Carter and Clinton administrations, while they have generally fallen during both Bush administrations. It rose slightly during the Reagan administration.)
There is little available evidence that the United States has more relative mobility than other advanced nations. If anything, the data seem to suggest the opposite. Using the relationship between parents’ and children’s incomes as an indicator of relative mobility, data show that a number of countries, including Denmark, Norway, Finland, Canada, Sweden, Germany, and France have more relative mobility than does the United States.
Compared to the same peer group, Germany is 1.5 times more mobile than the United States, Canada nearly 2.5 times more mobile, and Denmark 3 times more mobile. Only the United Kingdom has relative mobility levels on par with those of the United States.
Source
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Johnh 0
QuoteNor are those with the "My country, right or wrong" attitude patriotic because they always support their country.
Im sorry, I see caskets taken off planes all the time here with flags draped over them, so my perspective is a little different. There is a price for freedom whether we protest or not, and many have paid that with their own lives.
So which one is Patriotic - defending freedom, or "my country, right or wrong"?
Can't have it both ways.
QuoteQuoteNor are those with the "My country, right or wrong" attitude patriotic because they always support their country.
Im sorry, I see caskets taken off planes all the time here with flags draped over them, so my perspective is a little different. There is a price for freedom whether we protest or not, and many have paid that with their own lives.
So which one is Patriotic - defending freedom, or "my country, right or wrong"?
Can't have it both ways.
Look. I just watched another one come off tonight. Im really not in the mood to answer these questions. All you want my opinion for is to argue it so that yours will look brighter. I concede.
"We didn't start the fire"
DanG 1
QuoteLook. I just watched another one come off tonight. Im really not in the mood to answer these questions. All you want my opinion for is to argue it so that yours will look brighter. I concede.
If you truly believe the things you've said here, you'd recognize that that man died to protect the freedom of his countrymen to protest their government. That's what America is about. If the right of the people to speak out is taken away, then that soldier, and the many thousands before him, have died in vain.
- Dan G
- Dan G
In America, dissent is patriotic.
Speed Racer
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jenfly00 0
QuoteQuoteA Patriot serves the country and honors it above themselves, regardless of its motive.
So SS Officers were the true patriots of Deutschland in the '30s and '40s?
Transported to that time and place, many of the 'patriots' on this site would, indeed, be part of the SS.
-----------------------
"O brave new world that has such people in it".
"O brave new world that has such people in it".
Quote
Rhetorical: Why is it Big Momma Government's responsibility to intervene? Why is it not the responsibility of friends/family?
Private individuals don't have the right to imprison each other, manage each others' fertility or seize each others' children. I thought the whole anarchy bit lost currency in the early 20th century.
How would a libertarian do it?
My advice is to do what your parents did; get a job, sir. The bums will always lose. Do you hear me, Lebowski?
mnealtx 0
QuoteQuoteQuoteA Patriot serves the country and honors it above themselves, regardless of its motive.
So SS Officers were the true patriots of Deutschland in the '30s and '40s?
Transported to that time and place, many of the 'patriots' on this site would, indeed, be part of the SS.
Well, look who's back with yet ANOTHER slam on those who serve or support them....
Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706
QuoteQuoteLook. I just watched another one come off tonight. Im really not in the mood to answer these questions. All you want my opinion for is to argue it so that yours will look brighter. I concede.
If you truly believe the things you've said here, you'd recognize that that man died to protect the freedom of his countrymen to protest their government. That's what America is about. If the right of the people to speak out is taken away, then that soldier, and the many thousands before him, have died in vain.
- Dan G
Thats very well put. Many of them believe they are making a country for Iraq, that they are actually helping others, which is what America is also about. Whether or not this is true, really only time and Iraq will tell, but this is what many of the soldiers believe in thier hearts. Mostly, their just doing their duty for the Country and serving those next to them. I said at the beginning of all this, that my perspective is a little different, I shouldnt have gotten involved.
"We didn't start the fire"
jenfly00 0
QuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteA Patriot serves the country and honors it above themselves, regardless of its motive.
So SS Officers were the true patriots of Deutschland in the '30s and '40s?
Transported to that time and place, many of the 'patriots' on this site would, indeed, be part of the SS.
Well, look who's back with yet ANOTHER slam on those who serve or support them....what a surprise.
Regarding the SS, who do you think those people were when Hitler was rising to power ...monsters, chained in basements, awaiting release to do Hitler's bidding????
For the most part they were patriots who loved their country and supported a strong leader who clearly identified a threat and a way to eliminate it so their beloved country could survive and grow.
Short sighted, perhaps without the ability for clear, independent thinking ...but just patriots who belived they were serving their country. Not evil people waiting to be unleashed, just everyday people, such as yourself perhaps, following a strong leader who showed them who was responsibile for their personal failures.
I realize from your many posts, you are blinded to the similarities ...doesn't mean they don't exist. Perhaps if enough people had stood up and 'slammed' them for their small minded support and service the world would have not been subjected to the horrors of the Third Reich.
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"O brave new world that has such people in it".
"O brave new world that has such people in it".
I was actually speaking rhetorically, but it sure didn't take you any time at all to jump in and defend the Glorious Leader, did it?
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706
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