SpeedRacer 1 #1 May 18, 2008 It seems as though many Neo-Cons and their supporters characterize their detractors as being Anti-American. But actually, most of the conservatives in power today seem to be more like Loyalists than Patriots. If we were to transport the Neo-Cons back to the 1770s, I believe they would have sided with the Loyalists (who were the Conservatives of their day). Neo-Cons believe in 1) a powerful ruler, whose rule it is treasonous to challenge and 2) empire and 3) the continued expansion of war in order to solidify the power of the Ruler. Patriots drafted the Constitution in order to CONFINE the powers of the chief executive. They also fought AGAINST empire. And they wanted to AVOID foreign entanglements, not seek them out. So who are the real Patriots today? (edited to add: One Neo-Con supporter, Ann Coulter, has written a book called "Treason," a charge frequently leveled by the Loyalists against the Patriots.) Speed Racer -------------------------------------------------- Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Lindsey 0 #2 May 18, 2008 I thought I smelt your neurons burning.-- A conservative is just a liberal who's been mugged. A liberal is just a conservative who's been to jail Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TankBuster 0 #3 May 18, 2008 The loyalists called the patriots treason?The forecast is mostly sunny with occasional beer. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Amazon 7 #4 May 18, 2008 QuoteThe loyalists called the patriots treason? Yes they did. If they no longer supported King George. Sounds familiar Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lawrocket 3 #5 May 18, 2008 Name me a president in the last 75 years who has not ordered an attack on foreign soil. Okay, maybe Ford. FDR - WWII. Okya, legitimate. HST - Korea DDE - Korea - ended it. JFK - bay of Pigs and Vietnam LBJ - Vietnam Nixon - Vietnam - ended it Carter - Iran to get the Hostages Reagan - Grenada Bush, GHW - Iraq, Panama Clinton - Iraq bombings, Bosnia, Smoalia. We ALWAYS like to look at the current POTUS and say he's sooo different. Nobody seems to remember the rhetoric that the Clinton presidency launched at Iraq - or the cruise missiles. All executives have sought to increase their power. GHW Bush actually formed what I believe to be the modern model of presidential warmaking. Clinton didn't object to it. GW Bush embraced it. The founders of the Constitution - and the drafters of the Bill of Rights - found many things important. Who are the Patriots? Libertarians. Libertarians support free speech, no matter HOW offensive - which, ironically, is anathema to the PC left. They support the right to bear arms, which is anathema to the left. They support constraints of the 4th Amendment, which is anathema to the right. They support due process of law - anathema to the right. Shall I continue? My wife is hotter than your wife. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jcd11235 0 #6 May 18, 2008 QuoteWho are the Patriots? Libertarians. If you overlook their selective interpretations of the Constitution or their general support of economic policies that demonstrate a poor understanding of economics, then you might have a valid point. In reality, they are no more patriots than the Republicans or Democrats. They simply support negative liberty (i.e. liberty based on property rights) instead of positive liberty (i.e. liberty based on equal opportunity).Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SpeedRacer 1 #7 May 18, 2008 well, yes, you've got a point. Those whom we call the Neo-cons only expanded on policies that were put in place by both Democrats & Republicans to one extent or another. When the Democrats do it, they like to spin it in terms of what I like to call the Three Amigos Foreign Policy: "Wherever there is injustice, you will find us. Wherever there is suffering, we'll be there. Wherever liberty is threatened, you will find..the Three Amigos!" But those who object to expansionist, imperialist foreign policies are, in my belief, unfairly characterized as being "un- or anti- American", when in fact they are actually holding beliefs that are closer to the ideals on which this country was founded. Speed Racer -------------------------------------------------- Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SpeedRacer 1 #8 May 18, 2008 Quote instead of positive liberty (i.e. liberty based on equal opportunity). libertarians don't support liberty based on equal opportunity? Speed Racer -------------------------------------------------- Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,184 #9 May 18, 2008 QuoteQuote instead of positive liberty (i.e. liberty based on equal opportunity). libertarians don't support liberty based on equal opportunity? Does the child of a single, homeless, crack addicted teenage mother have the same opportunity in life as the child of an ivy-league-educated multi-billionaire in a stable marriage, and what do Libertarians have to say about it?... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jcd11235 0 #10 May 18, 2008 QuoteQuote instead of positive liberty (i.e. liberty based on equal opportunity). libertarians don't support liberty based on equal opportunity? Generally speaking, they believe one is entitled to the opportunity they can afford, or, in the case of children, the opportunity their parents can afford.Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TankBuster 0 #11 May 18, 2008 Does the child of a single, homeless, crack addicted teenage mother have the same opportunity in life as the child of an ivy-league-educated multi-billionaire in a stable marriage, and what do Libertarians have to say about it? The only party that promises to create Utopia and unite us under the "Department of Happy" is the Marxist Party. I look forward to their day of victory under Mr. Obama. And by the way, if you want a good exmple of opportunity, read Star Parker's biography. On welfare and with a criminal record, she decided to stop buying into the victim of opression and lack of opportunity bullshit. She educated herself, has become a noted author, and founded the Coalition for Urban Renewal. I personally know several people, including my own father, who were raised in poverty, yet worked hard to build prosperous lives for themselves and their families. Some even became -gasp- "filthy" rich. None relied on government assistance or the empty promises of a political party.The forecast is mostly sunny with occasional beer. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gawain 0 #12 May 18, 2008 QuoteNeo-Cons believe in 1) a powerful ruler, whose rule it is treasonous to challenge and 2) empire and 3) the continued expansion of war in order to solidify the power of the Ruler. Not even the Project for a New American Century believes that...So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright 'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life Make light! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,184 #13 May 18, 2008 QuoteDoes the child of a single, homeless, crack addicted teenage mother have the same opportunity in life as the child of an ivy-league-educated multi-billionaire in a stable marriage, and what do Libertarians have to say about it? The only party that promises to create Utopia and unite us under the "Department of Happy" is the Marxist Party. I look forward to their day of victory under Mr. Obama. And by the way, if you want a good exmple of opportunity, read Star Parker's biography. On welfare and with a criminal record, she decided to stop buying into the victim of opression and lack of opportunity bullshit. She educated herself, has become a noted author, and founded the Coalition for Urban Renewal. I personally know several people, including my own father, who were raised in poverty, yet worked hard to build prosperous lives for themselves and their families. Some even became -gasp- "filthy" rich. None relied on government assistance or the empty promises of a political party. So you don't deny that the Libertarian version of "equal opportunity" is really very very far from equal. PS Just because a few people manage to make their way out of DISadvantage by no means indicates that their opportunity was equal in any way. It just indicates that they are extraordinary.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DZJ 0 #14 May 18, 2008 So just to get this analogy straight in my head: if the Neo-Cons 'win', America comes back to the British Empire, right? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nerdgirl 0 #15 May 18, 2008 Quote So just to get this analogy straight in my head: if the Neo-Cons 'win', America comes back to the British Empire, right? Sure the British Empire can handle us? Ya know we'll bring guns, funny spellings, & keep pronouncing the last letter of the alphabet "zee." /Marg Act as if everything you do matters, while laughing at yourself for thinking anything you do matters. Tibetan Buddhist saying Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TankBuster 0 #16 May 18, 2008 I'm not a card carrying Libertarian, so I really need to do some research before I can speak to that. From what I do know, you are right, they believe as I do, that there is no government responsibility to ensure everyone has the same opportunity. Equal opportunity under the law and sameness get mixed up too often. In my world, the crack whore's child gets help from the local community, the church, or some other secular benevolent organization. Not the federal government. From each according to their ability, to each according to their need - should be voluntary, not done at gunpoint. In your world, professor, how does the one child get the same opportunity as the other?The forecast is mostly sunny with occasional beer. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,184 #17 May 19, 2008 QuoteI'm not a card carrying Libertarian, so I really need to do some research before I can speak to that. From what I do know, you are right, they believe as I do, that there is no government responsibility to ensure everyone has the same opportunity. Equal opportunity under the law and sameness get mixed up too often. In my world, the crack whore's child gets help from the local community, the church, or some other secular benevolent organization. Not the federal government. From each according to their ability, to each according to their need - should be voluntary, not done at gunpoint. In your world, professor, how does the one child get the same opportunity as the other? I doubt they can, but it for sure doesn't help to go trumpeting that you are the nation or party of equal opportunity when clearly you are not and in fact have policies that are designed to support and perpetuate privilege.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rynodigsmusic 0 #18 May 19, 2008 "So who are the real Patriots today"Quote You dont have to look any further that the ones sacrificing thier lives and thier freedoms for ours. A Patriot serves the country and honors it above themselves, regardless of its motive."We didn't start the fire" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Johnh 0 #19 May 19, 2008 QuoteA Patriot serves the country and honors it above themselves, regardless of its motive. So SS Officers were the true patriots of Deutschland in the '30s and '40s? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites jcd11235 0 #20 May 19, 2008 Quote"So who are the real Patriots today"Quote You dont have to look any further that the ones sacrificing thier lives and thier freedoms for ours. A Patriot serves the country and honors it above themselves, regardless of its motive. I have to disagree with the part about regardless of its motive. I true patriot will consider it a civic duty to protest their country's government and country's actions when those are not consistent with the values of the nation. E.g. those who protested the Iraq invasion were true patriots, or at least were not unpatriotic because of their protests. Nor are those with the "My country, right or wrong" attitude patriotic because they always support their country.Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites SpeedRacer 1 #21 May 19, 2008 Quote"So who are the real Patriots today"Quote You dont have to look any further that the ones sacrificing thier lives and thier freedoms for ours. A Patriot serves the country and honors it above themselves, regardless of its motive. Well, the same definition could be true for the ones fighting for Mother England. I was using the term "Patriot" in the 1770s sense of the term, when you had the Patriots (who wanted secession from the empire) and the Loyalists (who did not). Speed Racer -------------------------------------------------- Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites ChasingBlueSky 0 #22 May 19, 2008 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4df1soW7Dho_________________________________________ you can burn the land and boil the sea, but you can't take the sky from me.... I WILL fly again..... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mnealtx 0 #23 May 19, 2008 QuoteQuoteQuote instead of positive liberty (i.e. liberty based on equal opportunity). libertarians don't support liberty based on equal opportunity? Does the child of a single, homeless, crack addicted teenage mother have the same opportunity in life as the child of an ivy-league-educated multi-billionaire in a stable marriage, and what do Libertarians have to say about it? Equal opportunity != equal outcome ANYONE can rise above (or sink below) the circumstances of their birth.Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Amazon 7 #24 May 19, 2008 QuoteANYONE can rise above (or sink below) the circumstances of their birth. It certainly does make a difference if you were born with a silver spoon in your mouth... even if it does not help you to speak very well. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mnealtx 0 #25 May 19, 2008 Quote Quote ANYONE can rise above (or sink below) the circumstances of their birth. It certainly does make a difference if you were born with a silver spoon in your mouth... even if it does not help you to speak very well. As opposed to stealing the silver when you move out, I suppose...Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 Next Page 1 of 2 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 0 Go To Topic Listing
Johnh 0 #19 May 19, 2008 QuoteA Patriot serves the country and honors it above themselves, regardless of its motive. So SS Officers were the true patriots of Deutschland in the '30s and '40s? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jcd11235 0 #20 May 19, 2008 Quote"So who are the real Patriots today"Quote You dont have to look any further that the ones sacrificing thier lives and thier freedoms for ours. A Patriot serves the country and honors it above themselves, regardless of its motive. I have to disagree with the part about regardless of its motive. I true patriot will consider it a civic duty to protest their country's government and country's actions when those are not consistent with the values of the nation. E.g. those who protested the Iraq invasion were true patriots, or at least were not unpatriotic because of their protests. Nor are those with the "My country, right or wrong" attitude patriotic because they always support their country.Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites SpeedRacer 1 #21 May 19, 2008 Quote"So who are the real Patriots today"Quote You dont have to look any further that the ones sacrificing thier lives and thier freedoms for ours. A Patriot serves the country and honors it above themselves, regardless of its motive. Well, the same definition could be true for the ones fighting for Mother England. I was using the term "Patriot" in the 1770s sense of the term, when you had the Patriots (who wanted secession from the empire) and the Loyalists (who did not). Speed Racer -------------------------------------------------- Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites ChasingBlueSky 0 #22 May 19, 2008 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4df1soW7Dho_________________________________________ you can burn the land and boil the sea, but you can't take the sky from me.... I WILL fly again..... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mnealtx 0 #23 May 19, 2008 QuoteQuoteQuote instead of positive liberty (i.e. liberty based on equal opportunity). libertarians don't support liberty based on equal opportunity? Does the child of a single, homeless, crack addicted teenage mother have the same opportunity in life as the child of an ivy-league-educated multi-billionaire in a stable marriage, and what do Libertarians have to say about it? Equal opportunity != equal outcome ANYONE can rise above (or sink below) the circumstances of their birth.Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Amazon 7 #24 May 19, 2008 QuoteANYONE can rise above (or sink below) the circumstances of their birth. It certainly does make a difference if you were born with a silver spoon in your mouth... even if it does not help you to speak very well. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mnealtx 0 #25 May 19, 2008 Quote Quote ANYONE can rise above (or sink below) the circumstances of their birth. It certainly does make a difference if you were born with a silver spoon in your mouth... even if it does not help you to speak very well. As opposed to stealing the silver when you move out, I suppose...Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 Next Page 1 of 2 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 0 Go To Topic Listing
SpeedRacer 1 #21 May 19, 2008 Quote"So who are the real Patriots today"Quote You dont have to look any further that the ones sacrificing thier lives and thier freedoms for ours. A Patriot serves the country and honors it above themselves, regardless of its motive. Well, the same definition could be true for the ones fighting for Mother England. I was using the term "Patriot" in the 1770s sense of the term, when you had the Patriots (who wanted secession from the empire) and the Loyalists (who did not). Speed Racer -------------------------------------------------- Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites ChasingBlueSky 0 #22 May 19, 2008 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4df1soW7Dho_________________________________________ you can burn the land and boil the sea, but you can't take the sky from me.... I WILL fly again..... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mnealtx 0 #23 May 19, 2008 QuoteQuoteQuote instead of positive liberty (i.e. liberty based on equal opportunity). libertarians don't support liberty based on equal opportunity? Does the child of a single, homeless, crack addicted teenage mother have the same opportunity in life as the child of an ivy-league-educated multi-billionaire in a stable marriage, and what do Libertarians have to say about it? Equal opportunity != equal outcome ANYONE can rise above (or sink below) the circumstances of their birth.Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Amazon 7 #24 May 19, 2008 QuoteANYONE can rise above (or sink below) the circumstances of their birth. It certainly does make a difference if you were born with a silver spoon in your mouth... even if it does not help you to speak very well. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mnealtx 0 #25 May 19, 2008 Quote Quote ANYONE can rise above (or sink below) the circumstances of their birth. It certainly does make a difference if you were born with a silver spoon in your mouth... even if it does not help you to speak very well. As opposed to stealing the silver when you move out, I suppose...Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 Next Page 1 of 2 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 0
ChasingBlueSky 0 #22 May 19, 2008 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4df1soW7Dho_________________________________________ you can burn the land and boil the sea, but you can't take the sky from me.... I WILL fly again..... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnealtx 0 #23 May 19, 2008 QuoteQuoteQuote instead of positive liberty (i.e. liberty based on equal opportunity). libertarians don't support liberty based on equal opportunity? Does the child of a single, homeless, crack addicted teenage mother have the same opportunity in life as the child of an ivy-league-educated multi-billionaire in a stable marriage, and what do Libertarians have to say about it? Equal opportunity != equal outcome ANYONE can rise above (or sink below) the circumstances of their birth.Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Amazon 7 #24 May 19, 2008 QuoteANYONE can rise above (or sink below) the circumstances of their birth. It certainly does make a difference if you were born with a silver spoon in your mouth... even if it does not help you to speak very well. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnealtx 0 #25 May 19, 2008 Quote Quote ANYONE can rise above (or sink below) the circumstances of their birth. It certainly does make a difference if you were born with a silver spoon in your mouth... even if it does not help you to speak very well. As opposed to stealing the silver when you move out, I suppose...Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
