Shooting the Quran

[quade 4]

First read this.

Was it a bad thing to do? Yes, absolutely.
Was it hurtful to Iraq and US relations? Yes, absolutely.
Was it a "crime"? Well in Iraq, almost certainly.

Ironically, in the US (ya know, the place where "democracy" comes from), this would have been protected expression under the First Amendment.

I'm not exactly certain where I'm going wit this, but doesn't publicly condemning the soldier and calling the act "criminal" pretty much guarantee that Iraq will never have freedom of expression?

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[Squeak 17]

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First read this.

Was it a bad thing to do? Yes, absolutely.
Was it hurtful to Iraq and US relations? Yes, absolutely.
Was it a "crime"? Well in Iraq, almost certainly.

Ironically, in the US (ya know, the place where "democracy" comes from), this would have been protected expression under the First Amendment.

I'm not exactly certain where I'm going wit this, but doesn't publicly condemning the soldier and calling the act "criminal" pretty much guarantee that Iraq will never have freedom of expression?

So democracy come from the USofA, historians will be surprised

And how is it different to Burning the USof A flag. Isn't THAT a crime in your beloved freedom of speech loving democratic country?

You are not now, nor will you ever be, good enough to not die in this sport (Sparky)
My Life ROCKS!
How's yours doing?

[quade 4]

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So democracy come from the USofA, historians will be surprised

Oh I didn't think the reference was going to be missed by anyone and I failed to take into account the sarcasm impaired. Sorry my bad. The US government HAS been saying that it's bringing democracy to the middle east and that Iraq is an example. THAT is what I was commenting on with that turn of phrase and why the word is in sacasti-quotes.

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And how is it different to Burning the USof A flag. Isn't THAT a crime in your beloved freedom of speech loving democratic country?

Actually, burning the Flag of the United States is not only protected expression, it's the government approved method for disposal of them.(1) So, if you don't like the way the US runs things, go ahead and light it up, we can make them all day long and it won't change a thing because, and this is a point some people seem to miss, it's just the symbol of the country. It's not the country itself.

Which, if you think about it, is a point also missed by the people that are being "handled" in Iraq over this situation seem to have missed.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[Squeak 17]

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So democracy come from the USofA, historians will be surprised

Oh I didn't think the reference was going to be missed by anyone and I failed to take into account the sarcasm impaired. .

You dare call me sarcastically impaired you obviously have no clue to me I'm sarcasm personified, you just fucked up and as usual are back pedelling

You are not now, nor will you ever be, good enough to not die in this sport (Sparky)
My Life ROCKS!
How's yours doing?

[Skyrad 0]

Way to go solider boy! I hope the Al Quieda recruitment officer in Iraq sends him a big bunch of flowers to say thank you. You can't buy publicity like this, really, This is the best thing that has happened to Al Q since Abu Ghraib. What a fucking moron.

When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy.
Lucius Annaeus Seneca

[crwtom 0]

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Ironically, in the US (ya know, the place where "democracy" comes from), this would have been protected expression under the First Amendment.

serious questions -- can US soldiers, during duty and in uniform, really fully exercise the first amendment rights without repercussions. Like burn a flag and such?

Cheers, T

*******************************************************************
Fear causes hesitation, and hesitation will cause your worst fears to come true

[labrys 0]

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serious questions -- can US soldiers, during duty and in uniform, really fully exercise the first amendment rights without repercussions. Like burn a flag and such?

Nope. The Uniform Code of Military Justice trumps constitutional rights.

Owned by Remi #?

[Gawain 0]

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And how is it different to Burning the USof A flag. Isn't THAT a crime in your beloved freedom of speech loving democratic country?

Burning the flag is not a crime as far as I know. I makes people mad, sure.

So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh
Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright
'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life
Make light!

[likearock 2]

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Way to go solider boy! I hope the Al Quieda recruitment officer in Iraq sends him a big bunch of flowers to say thank you. You can't buy publicity like this, really, This is the best thing that has happened to Al Q since Abu Ghraib. What a fucking moron.

Absolutely right. Are we unable to learn from the past here? Until we're able to get out of Iraq, can we possibly keep from giving the Iraqis more reasons to hate us?

[Gawain 0]

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serious questions -- can US soldiers, during duty and in uniform, really fully exercise the first amendment rights without repercussions. Like burn a flag and such?

No. In fact, servicemen and women are under UCMJ 24/7 on/off duty.

So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh
Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright
'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life
Make light!

[SpeedRacer 1]

As Americans, we have a RIGHT to do all sorts of things.

That doesn't mean that all of those things are a good idea.



What a fucking dumbass. Let's all just continue to drag America's name through the mud & recruiting for our enemies, after all, we have a RIGHT to do so, don't we?

Speed Racer
--------------------------------------------------

[Lindsey 0]

lol....like Trace Adkins said...lol, "The First Amendment protects you from the government, not from me (something like that)....and I may exercise my right to give you a good 'ol Country Ass-Whoopin'!"

HAHAHAHA! I know it's wrong. Spank me. Hee.

linz

--
A conservative is just a liberal who's been mugged. A liberal is just a conservative who's been to jail

[TankBuster 0]

Yes this soldier is a dumbass. I guarantee you these guys get briefed ad nauseum on what they can do, what they can't do, and how to conduct themselves in a muslim country. This little renegade either fell asleep during the briefing, or was more interested in having some fun with his buddies. Either way, it was handled, and in my mind they went way overboard. Apoligize, discipline the soldier and send him home. That should be enough. The candy ass who kissed the Quran should also be sent home. And - as far as it being a recruiting tool for the jihadies - fine. Any of those little bastards who want to join the jihad and attack the US because of an isolated incident of some idiot shooting a book - great - draw them out of their caves and kill em. Kill em all.

The forecast is mostly sunny with occasional beer.

[likearock 2]

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And - as far as it being a recruiting tool for the jihadies - fine. Any of those little bastards who want to join the jihad and attack the US because of an isolated incident of some idiot shooting a book - great - draw them out of their caves and kill em. Kill em all.

It's much more likely the jihadists will swell the ranks in Iraq and take revenge on American troops there than they will launch a US-based attack. I assume you're currently serving in Iraq, otherwise your appeal is a little like Bush's "Bring it on." Always easy to do when you don't have to face the bullets yourself.

However, the affect on AQ is not the worst part of it. Iraq's at a critical point right now as Maliki's trying to assert the government's dominance over the Shiite militias. Part of the balancing act he has to play is the fact that he's tied to the Americans who are seen as occupiers by most of the Iraqi populace. Events like this make his job all the more difficult and give a propaganda boost to the Iranian-backed militias.

[TankBuster 0]

I've faced their bullets. Not in this war but the first one. War is far from a perfect little shooting gallery. Soldiers, like everyone else, are subject to lapses in judgement. I think most people, even your rank and file Iraqi, understand that. By the way - these extremists don't simply act out of revenge. If you read their writings they want to destroy us simply because we exist.

I disagree with your assesment of the situation. I jump with a lot of active military and keep in touch with old service buddies who are now making General rank. They deal with these people every day, and the real story is that our presence there is appreciated and welcomed by most. I really don't know if the Iraqi's are able to govern themselves without a dictator, but they need to step up to the plate - soon.

The forecast is mostly sunny with occasional beer.

[jcd11235 0]

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By the way - these extremists don't simply act out of revenge. If you read their writings they want to destroy us simply because we exist.

Doesn't sound much different from:

… draw them out of their caves and kill em. Kill em all.

Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials!

[tbrown 26]

Iraq is never going to have freedom of expression anyway, so why bother worrying about it.

The act of using a Quran for target practice is understandable, within the context of young soldiers who necessarily (and in my opinion correctly) don't trust anyone in the "host" country.

This is the problem with occupations. Soldiers are not degreed anthropologists, nor are they politicians. They are trained to fight, kill, and prevail over armed enemies. and they do that very well. Their officers, who do have degrees, have even offered up a quote as to the limits of using military force, "If the only tool in your box is a hammer, soon everything starts looking like a nail". Guess the Quran looked enough like a nail for some kid to shoot it.

Your humble servant.....Professor Gravity !

[TankBuster 0]

Doesn't sound much different from:

… draw them out of their caves and kill em. Kill em all.


OK, point well made, but there is one, not so subtle differnce. I believe in live and let live. The peaceful Muslims - they get to live. The ones who attack us or our troops? Kill em. Kill em all.

The forecast is mostly sunny with occasional beer.

[jcd11235 0]

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Doesn't sound much different from:

… draw them out of their caves and kill em. Kill em all.


OK, point well made, but there is one, not so subtle differnce. I believe in live and let live. The peaceful Muslims - they get to live. The ones who attack us or our troops? Kill em. Kill em all.

That would be a fair distinction if our troops weren't an occupying force in the country in question.

Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials!

[likearock 2]

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I've faced their bullets. Not in this war but the first one. War is far from a perfect little shooting gallery. Soldiers, like everyone else, are subject to lapses in judgement. I think most people, even your rank and file Iraqi, understand that. By the way - these extremists don't simply act out of revenge. If you read their writings they want to destroy us simply because we exist.

All the more reason not to give them ammunition for swelling their ranks. Whatever the case, completely unnecessary incidents like these lead to more extremists in Iraq and more acts of violence upon our troops. If you think that desecrating the Koran to smoke out AQ is justification for putting our troops more in harms way than they already are, that's between you and your conscience.

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I disagree with your assesment of the situation. I jump with a lot of active military and keep in touch with old service buddies who are now making General rank. They deal with these people every day, and the real story is that our presence there is appreciated and welcomed by most. I really don't know if the Iraqi's are able to govern themselves without a dictator, but they need to step up to the plate - soon.

Great. And if they're not able to govern themselves, how exactly do we achieve "victory"? How do we ever get out of there? "Stepping up to the plate" is not just a buzzword, Maliki is trying to do just that. American soldiers desecrating the Koran directly sabotages his efforts.

[GQ_jumper 4]

I'm not exactly certain where I'm going wit this, but doesn't publicly condemning the soldier and calling the act "criminal" pretty much guarantee that Iraq will never have freedom of expression?

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I agree that this wasn't a smart move on the shooters part, but why the hell does anyone deserve an apology?? I haven't seen the Iraqi government apologize for the bodies of soldiers being drug through the streets of Abu Gharib. Arabs are a bunch of little babies when it comes to things that insult them, they act like 10 year olds when they get their feelings hurt. Screw the apology.

History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or the timid.
--Dwight D. Eisenhower

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[billvon 3,116]

>I agree that this wasn't a smart move on the shooters part, but why
>the hell does anyone deserve an apology?

Because it was a deliberately offensive act, and if the US military accepted it they would be condoning that act. End result of THAT would be a lot more dead US soldiers.

>I haven't seen the Iraqi government apologize for the bodies of soldiers
>being drug through the streets of Abu Gharib.

If it had been Iraqi government soldiers doing it, you could bet your ass we'd be demanding an apology (and their heads.)

>Arabs are a bunch of little babies when it comes to things that insult them . . .

So are we. Look at how people here got upset when the Iwo Jima picture was adapted for a Time Magazine cover. And that's just a picture, not the book of a religion.

[happythoughts 0]

Cross in a Jar

I think that in this case, you need to compare apples to apples. It is a religious icon, not a secular one, so the analogous event needs to be religious.

It's been done in the US. A few years ago, Andre Serrano took a pic of a cross that he had put in a jar of urine.

His "art" was developed using a $15K gift from the National Endowment for the Arts. Immediately, boatloads of religious people demanded that we cut the amount given to the NEA because they were being pointlessly offensive.

In his view, art.
The religious view, blasphemy.
For others, just some idiot trying to get a bunch of media attention (successfully).

If you defile a religious icon, be prepared for a backlash at the depth of the religious culture.

Muslims are just far more serious about their religion.

Christians tolerate the other religions. If they really bought into their own religion, they would be just as zealous about the extermination of the other belief systems. All the others religions are, technically, minions of Satan and they just wink at it.

[ChasingBlueSky 0]

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Because it was a deliberately offensive act, and if the US military accepted it they would be condoning that act. End result of THAT would be a lot more dead US soldiers.

Anything will be used as an excuse, it's a lose/lose scenario. One has to wonder if he was stationed in Israel and did it to the Old Testament if there would be an issue with that.

_________________________________________
you can burn the land and boil the sea, but you can't take the sky from me....
I WILL fly again.....

[Darius11 12]

As Skyrad put it he (the guy shooting the Quran)just helped the enemy the real enemy.

I have read the replays here and here is a reminder to some of you.
Ever heard of when you go Rome do as the Romans?
That is very true and great advice when encountering different cultures.

We are an occupying force in their land. We should respect their culture, and not try to force our views of democracy on them.
I understand that in this country you can insult anyone’s god and even have Christ in a tank of urine and consider it art. That is not what Iraq is ready for. Democracy and democratic thinking is going to be a slow process that they have to figure out for them selves. Just think of the changes we have seen in our democracy in the past 200 years.


I think the army did all they could do by apologizing.
They should punish the solder but only for helping the enemy.

I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain