California Supreme Court Holds that Gay Marriage must be Allowed under the California Constitution

[labrys 0]

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Yes and I find it very interesting that this nations principles were founded on God

"But it does me no injury for my neighbor to say there are twenty gods or no God. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg."
-Thomas Jefferson, Notes on Virginia, 1782

Owned by Remi #?

[jcd11235 0]

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Yes- quality of education. Though they want to say otherwise, they fear that a school full of poor kids will drag down the quality of education.

Any evidence to support that claim, or is it baseless?

Actions. When you get older and associate more with parents rather than children, you'll see lots of it. Political beliefs get trumped by parental fears every day of the week. Demonstrated in this forum on the subject of 'scary child predators.'

Actions aren't evidence of motive.

And I'm probably a heck of a lot older than you think. Let's just say I'm not a traditional student.

Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials!

[georgerussia 0]

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My question is, how long before the polygamists are knocking at the supreme courts door? If four people of consenting age wish to be married, (or six, or ten) why should they be discriminated against?

I guess it would take a while, because the gay population seems to be much larger than polygamist population. But nevertheless I do not see a lot of problems here as long as other issues (documentation, tax, inheritance, immigration) are solved or not touched. Again, ten people of consenting age could already live together in a family, and raise kids, so I see no problem if they want to have local government to have this fact documented.

* Don't pray for me if you wanna help - just send me a check. *

[jcd11235 0]

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Yes and I find it very interesting that this nations principles were founded on God.

Were they? Certainly, this nation-state, as established by the Constitution of the united States of America was not founded on god or religion.

I have examined all the known superstitions of the world, and I do not find in our particular superstition of Christianity one redeeming feature. They are all alike founded on fables and mythology. Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined and imprisoned. What has been the effect of this coercion? To make one half the world fools and the other half hypocrites; to support roguery and error all over the earth.

Thomas Jefferson, in a letter to William Short

Fix Reason firmly in her seat, and call to her tribunal every fact, every opinion. Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve the homage of reason than of blindfolded fear. ... Do not be frightened from this inquiry by any fear of its consequences. If it end in a belief that there is no God, you will find incitements to virtue in the comfort and pleasantness you feel in its exercise and in the love of others which it will procure for you.

Jefferson, in a letter to his nephew, Peter Carr
(Jefferson's Works, Vol. ii., p. 217)

Read the Bible as you would Livy or Tacitus. For example, in the book of Joshua we are told the sun stood still for several hours. Were we to read that fact in Livy or Tacitus we should class it with their showers of blood, speaking of their statues, beasts, etc. But it is said that the writer of that book was inspired. Examine, therefore, candidly, what evidence there is of his having been inspired. The pretension is entitled to your inquiry, because millions believe it. On the other hand, you are astronomer enough to know how contrary it is to the law of nature.
…

Keep in your eye the opposite pretensions: First, of those who say [Jesus Christ] was begotten by God, born of a virgin, suspended and reversed the laws of Nature at will, and ascended bodily into heaven; and second, of those who say he was a man of illegitimate birth, of a benevolent heart, enthusiastic mind, who set out without pretensions to divinity, ended in believing them, and was punished capitally for sedition by being gibbeted, according to the Roman law, which punished the first commission of that offence by whipping, and the second by exile or death in furea.

Jefferson, in letter to his nephew
(Works, Vol. ii., p. 217)

I have recently been examining all the known superstitions of the world, and do not find in our particular superstition [Christianity] one redeeming feature. They are all alike, founded upon fables and mythologies

Jefferson, letter to Dr. Woods

This would be the best of all possible worlds if there were no religion in it.

John Adams, in a letter to Jefferson

If by religion, we are to understand sectarian dogmas, in which no two of them agree, then your exclamation on that hypothesis is just, "that this would be the best of worlds if there were no religion in it."

Jefferson, replying to Adams

I knew Dr. Wilson personally, and have entertained him at my house, on which occasion he said in my hearing what my relative, the Rev. Dr. Ashbel Green of Philadelphia, frequently told me in his study, viz., that during the time that Congress sat in that city the clergy, suspecting from good evidence that Washington was not a believer in the Bible as a revelation from heaven, laid a plan to extort from him a confession, either pro or con, but that the plan failed. Dr. Green was chaplain to Congress during all the time of its sitting in Philadelphia; dined with the President on special invitation nearly every week; was well acquainted with him, and after he had been dead and gone many years, often said in my hearing, though very sorrowfully, of course, that while Washington was very deferential to religion and its ceremonies, like nearly all the founders of the Republic, he was not a Christian, but a Deist. (emphasis mine -jcd11235)

Hon. A.B. Bradford of Pennsylvania, relative to Washington's belief

It was during his [Dr. Green's] long residence in Philadelphia that I became intimately acquainted with him as a relative, student of theology at Princeton, and a member of the same Presbytery to which he belonged. Many an hour during my student and clergyman days did I spend with him in his study at No. 150 Pine street, Philadelphia, listening to his interesting and instructive conversation on Revolutionary times and incidents. I recollect well that during one of these interviews in his study I inquired of him what were the real opinions Washington entertained on the subject of religion. He promptly answered pretty nearly in the language which Jefferson says Dr. Rush used. He explained more at length the plan laid by the clergy of Philadelphia at the close of Washington's administration as President to get his views of religion for the sake of the good influence they supposed they would have in counteracting the Infidelity of Paine and the rest of the Revolutionary patriots, military and civil. But I well remember the smile on his face and the twinkle of his black eye when he said: 'The old fox was too cunning for Us.' He affirmed, in concluding his narrative, that from his long and intimate acquaintance with Washington he knew it to be the case that while he respectfully conformed to the religious customs of society by generally going to church on Sundays, he had no belief at all in the divine origin of the Bible, or the Jewish-Christian religion.

B.F. Underwood, in an article on Washington's religion
Chicago Tribune

The Infinite Father expects or requires no worship or praise from us.

Benjamin Franklin

The faith you mention has doubtless its use in the world. I do not desire to see it diminished, nor would I desire to lessen it in any way; but I wish it were more productive of good works than I have generally seen it. I mean real good works, works of kindness, charity, mercy, and public spirit, not holy-day keeping, sermon-hearing, and reading, performing church ceremonies, or making long prayers, filled with flatteries and compliments, despised even by wise men, and much less capable of pleasing the Deity.

Franklin, n a letter to the Rev. George Whitefield, 1753

I do not believe in the creed professed by the Jewish church, by the Roman church, by the Greek church, by the Turkish church, by the Protestant church, nor by any church that I know of. My own mind is my own church.

Thomas Paine
Age Of Reason

All national institutions of churches, whether Jewish, Christian, or Turkish, appear to me no other than human inventions set up to terrify and enslave mankind, and monopolize power and profit.
…
Each of these churches shows certain books, which they call revelation, or the word of God. The Jews say that their word of God was given by God to Moses, face to face; the Christians say that their word of God came by divine inspiration; and the Turks say that their word of God, the Koran, was brought by an angel from heaven. Each of these churches accuses the others of unbelief; and, for my own part, I disbelieve them all.

Paine
Age Of Reason

It is the fable of Jesus Christ, as told in the New Testament, and the wild and visionary doctrine raised thereon, against which I contend. The story, taking it as it is told, is blasphemously obscene.

Paine
Age Of Reason

From the time I was capable of conceiving an idea and acting upon it by reflection, I either doubted the truth of the Christian system or thought it to be a strange affair.

Paine
Age Of Reason

as quoted in Six Historic Americans
by John E. Remsburg

Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials!

[georgerussia 0]

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Next they will say, as will all liberals, that a 15 yr old is considered old enough for sex, stripping any chance that she might have of holding and keeping something sacred for herself, due to the influence of a liberal society.

You might be surprised, but the age of consent (a legal definition of "is considered old enough for sex") set by law is 14 or less in Albania, Angola, parts of Austria, Bolivia (females only), parts of Brazil, Brunei, Bulgaria, Burkina Faso (the age is 13), Chile, China, Colombia, Croatia, Ecuador, Estonia, parts of Germany, Hungary, India (in Manipur), Italy, Liechtenstein, Lithuania, Mexico (some parts) Moldova, Montenegro, Nigeria (the age is 13), Paraquay (in marriage), Peru, Philippines (the age is 12!), Puerto Rico, Serbia, South Korea (the age is 13), Spain (the age is 13). Most of those countries, I'd say, are rather conservative, and not what you typically would call "without morals", thus invalidating your point completely.

Actually, by looking on the table I'd say that only few countries have age of consent 18 or higher, and most of those countries are kinda weird, like Afganistan, Iraq and Tanzania; vast majority of the world has age of consent set at 16yo as well as most U.S. states.

* Don't pray for me if you wanna help - just send me a check. *

[Lindsey 0]

The age of consent is 16 in Arkansas. Whoda' thunk?

--
A conservative is just a liberal who's been mugged. A liberal is just a conservative who's been to jail

[georgerussia 0]

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The age of consent is 16 in Arkansas. Whoda' thunk?

Well, those very liberal states of Kansas, Kentucky, Georgia and Alabama (they all are 16) definitely shine comparing to really conservative California and Arizona with 18.

(And I found it really funny that someone could have a 16yo girlfriend in Nevada, but if they move to California, they cannot live together anymore. Those immoral Nevadians, you know).

* Don't pray for me if you wanna help - just send me a check. *

[Lindsey 0]

Several posts in this thread reminded me of a bumper sticker I saw one time

"The last time we mixed politics with religion, people were burned at the stake."

Just thought I'd share.

:)
linz

--
A conservative is just a liberal who's been mugged. A liberal is just a conservative who's been to jail

[SpeedRacer 1]

And "the last time people listened to a Bush, they were stuck in the desert for forty years!"

Speed Racer
--------------------------------------------------

[nathaniel 0]

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Originally posted by skymiles:
Great! I'll soon be able to marry that goat I've had my eye on. Make that several goats. No, no, no, make that several under aged goats. Slippery slope don't ya know.

Yeah. If we allowed blacks and women (and gays!) to vote, why not goats?

My advice is to do what your parents did; get a job, sir. The bums will always lose. Do you hear me, Lebowski?

[rynodigsmusic 0]

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Yes and I find it very interesting that this nations principles were founded on God.

Were they? Certainly, this nation-state, as established by the Constitution of the united States of America was not founded on god or religion.

I have examined all the known superstitions of the world, and I do not find in our particular superstition of Christianity one redeeming feature. They are all alike founded on fables and mythology. Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined and imprisoned. What has been the effect of this coercion? To make one half the world fools and the other half hypocrites; to support roguery and error all over the earth.

Thomas Jefferson, in a letter to William Short

Fix Reason firmly in her seat, and call to her tribunal every fact, every opinion. Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve the homage of reason than of blindfolded fear. ... Do not be frightened from this inquiry by any fear of its consequences. If it end in a belief that there is no God, you will find incitements to virtue in the comfort and pleasantness you feel in its exercise and in the love of others which it will procure for you.

Jefferson, in a letter to his nephew, Peter Carr
(Jefferson's Works, Vol. ii., p. 217)

Read the Bible as you would Livy or Tacitus. For example, in the book of Joshua we are told the sun stood still for several hours. Were we to read that fact in Livy or Tacitus we should class it with their showers of blood, speaking of their statues, beasts, etc. But it is said that the writer of that book was inspired. Examine, therefore, candidly, what evidence there is of his having been inspired. The pretension is entitled to your inquiry, because millions believe it. On the other hand, you are astronomer enough to know how contrary it is to the law of nature.
…

Keep in your eye the opposite pretensions: First, of those who say [Jesus Christ] was begotten by God, born of a virgin, suspended and reversed the laws of Nature at will, and ascended bodily into heaven; and second, of those who say he was a man of illegitimate birth, of a benevolent heart, enthusiastic mind, who set out without pretensions to divinity, ended in believing them, and was punished capitally for sedition by being gibbeted, according to the Roman law, which punished the first commission of that offence by whipping, and the second by exile or death in furea.

Jefferson, in letter to his nephew
(Works, Vol. ii., p. 217)

I have recently been examining all the known superstitions of the world, and do not find in our particular superstition [Christianity] one redeeming feature. They are all alike, founded upon fables and mythologies

Jefferson, letter to Dr. Woods

This would be the best of all possible worlds if there were no religion in it.

John Adams, in a letter to Jefferson

If by religion, we are to understand sectarian dogmas, in which no two of them agree, then your exclamation on that hypothesis is just, "that this would be the best of worlds if there were no religion in it."

Jefferson, replying to Adams

I knew Dr. Wilson personally, and have entertained him at my house, on which occasion he said in my hearing what my relative, the Rev. Dr. Ashbel Green of Philadelphia, frequently told me in his study, viz., that during the time that Congress sat in that city the clergy, suspecting from good evidence that Washington was not a believer in the Bible as a revelation from heaven, laid a plan to extort from him a confession, either pro or con, but that the plan failed. Dr. Green was chaplain to Congress during all the time of its sitting in Philadelphia; dined with the President on special invitation nearly every week; was well acquainted with him, and after he had been dead and gone many years, often said in my hearing, though very sorrowfully, of course, that while Washington was very deferential to religion and its ceremonies, like nearly all the founders of the Republic, he was not a Christian, but a Deist. (emphasis mine -jcd11235)

Hon. A.B. Bradford of Pennsylvania, relative to Washington's belief

It was during his [Dr. Green's] long residence in Philadelphia that I became intimately acquainted with him as a relative, student of theology at Princeton, and a member of the same Presbytery to which he belonged. Many an hour during my student and clergyman days did I spend with him in his study at No. 150 Pine street, Philadelphia, listening to his interesting and instructive conversation on Revolutionary times and incidents. I recollect well that during one of these interviews in his study I inquired of him what were the real opinions Washington entertained on the subject of religion. He promptly answered pretty nearly in the language which Jefferson says Dr. Rush used. He explained more at length the plan laid by the clergy of Philadelphia at the close of Washington's administration as President to get his views of religion for the sake of the good influence they supposed they would have in counteracting the Infidelity of Paine and the rest of the Revolutionary patriots, military and civil. But I well remember the smile on his face and the twinkle of his black eye when he said: 'The old fox was too cunning for Us.' He affirmed, in concluding his narrative, that from his long and intimate acquaintance with Washington he knew it to be the case that while he respectfully conformed to the religious customs of society by generally going to church on Sundays, he had no belief at all in the divine origin of the Bible, or the Jewish-Christian religion.

B.F. Underwood, in an article on Washington's religion
Chicago Tribune

The Infinite Father expects or requires no worship or praise from us.

Benjamin Franklin

The faith you mention has doubtless its use in the world. I do not desire to see it diminished, nor would I desire to lessen it in any way; but I wish it were more productive of good works than I have generally seen it. I mean real good works, works of kindness, charity, mercy, and public spirit, not holy-day keeping, sermon-hearing, and reading, performing church ceremonies, or making long prayers, filled with flatteries and compliments, despised even by wise men, and much less capable of pleasing the Deity.

Franklin, n a letter to the Rev. George Whitefield, 1753

I do not believe in the creed professed by the Jewish church, by the Roman church, by the Greek church, by the Turkish church, by the Protestant church, nor by any church that I know of. My own mind is my own church.

Thomas Paine
Age Of Reason

All national institutions of churches, whether Jewish, Christian, or Turkish, appear to me no other than human inventions set up to terrify and enslave mankind, and monopolize power and profit.
…
Each of these churches shows certain books, which they call revelation, or the word of God. The Jews say that their word of God was given by God to Moses, face to face; the Christians say that their word of God came by divine inspiration; and the Turks say that their word of God, the Koran, was brought by an angel from heaven. Each of these churches accuses the others of unbelief; and, for my own part, I disbelieve them all.

Paine
Age Of Reason

It is the fable of Jesus Christ, as told in the New Testament, and the wild and visionary doctrine raised thereon, against which I contend. The story, taking it as it is told, is blasphemously obscene.

Paine
Age Of Reason

From the time I was capable of conceiving an idea and acting upon it by reflection, I either doubted the truth of the Christian system or thought it to be a strange affair.

Paine
Age Of Reason

as quoted in Six Historic Americans
by John E. Remsburg

Just so everyone knows. A case can be built to support Gods foundation and mans foundation. It is best to research for yourself in this matter.

"We didn't start the fire"

[nerdgirl 0]

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So, you dont think that laws are founded on morality?

I would posit that the origin of law -- including many of the laws related to marriage -- was in commerce.

The first civilization arose in Mesopotamia. Even before Hammurabi’s Code, there were older Sumerian laws. The first of which, along with the oldest cuneiform, dealt with disputes over stuff (crops and animals).

In American law, the same things are not considered moral or immoral as in say, Saudi Arabia, where you can be punished by death for commiting acts of homosexuality. I assume that is not the 'moral code' which you want to emulate. I most certainly don't.

VR/Marg

Act as if everything you do matters, while laughing at yourself for thinking anything you do matters.
Tibetan Buddhist saying

[rynodigsmusic 0]

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So, you dont think that laws are founded on morality?

I would posit that the origin of law -- including many of the laws related to marriage -- was in commerce.

The first civilization arose in Mesopotamia. Even before Hammurabi’s Code, there were older Sumerian laws. The first of which, along with the oldest cuneiform, dealt with disputes over stuff (crops and animals).

In American law, the same things are not considered moral or immoral as in say, Saudi Arabia, where you can be punished by death for commiting acts of homosexuality. I assume that is not the 'moral code' which you want to emulate. I most certainly don't.

VR/Marg

Of course not. Do you think that there is something beyond instinct which inspires our thoughts of right and wrong? This is not a loaded question. I want your opinion.

"We didn't start the fire"

[Lindsey 0]

Of COURSE there's something beyond instinct that guides our thoughts about right and wrong. It' called a cerebral cortex.

--
A conservative is just a liberal who's been mugged. A liberal is just a conservative who's been to jail

[nerdgirl 0]

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Do you think that there is something beyond instinct which inspires our thoughts of right and wrong? This is not a loaded question. I want your opinion.

In some cases, yes … and in some cases, we are just beginning to appreciate how deeply biological are the origins of traits like altruism and cooperation. It's nature & nurture.

The convention of individual liberty and property rights -- which I'm willing to bet you treasure as much as I -- originate from Enlightenment ideals, e.g., John Locke.

The Code of Federal Regulations has lots of parts that are non-instinctive.

The disparate fields of molecular biology, genetics, sociobiology, philosophy, evolutionary psychology, & economic game theory are exploring the biological basis for some "higher' traits.

Just a few examples:

Moral (or usually expressed as the positivist “cooperative behavior”) has been shown to be an evolutionary trait that benefits human survival, e.g., “the Grandmother (& Grandfather) Hypothesis.”

Reciprocal Altruism, which traces its citation lineage to Darwin.

Ethical decisions to go to war and other conflict resolution explained through game theory.

VR/Marg

Act as if everything you do matters, while laughing at yourself for thinking anything you do matters.
Tibetan Buddhist saying

[rynodigsmusic 0]

Quote

Of COURSE there's something beyond instinct that guides our thoughts about right and wrong. It' called a cerebral cortex.

So those without one, or with one that is way out of wack could be the serial killers of innocent children? Seems like if we know what it is, we should be able to get rid of serial killers huh? Most serial killers are self-proclaimed geniuses. Does anyone else see more and more that we could be headed into the society in "A Brave New World"?

"We didn't start the fire"

[nerdgirl 0]

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Of COURSE there's something beyond instinct that guides our thoughts about right and wrong. It' called a cerebral cortex.

Excellent response!

VR/Marg

Act as if everything you do matters, while laughing at yourself for thinking anything you do matters.
Tibetan Buddhist saying

[rynodigsmusic 0]

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Do you think that there is something beyond instinct which inspires our thoughts of right and wrong? This is not a loaded question. I want your opinion.

In some cases, yes … and in some cases, we are just beginning to appreciate how deeply biological are the origins of traits like altruism and cooperation. It's nature & nurture.

The convention of individual liberty and property rights -- which I'm willing to bet you treasure as much as I -- originate from Enlightenment ideals, e.g., John Locke.

The Code of Federal Regulations has lots of parts that are non-instinctive.

The disparate fields of molecular biology, genetics, sociobiology, philosophy, evolutionary psychology, & economic game theory are exploring the biological basis for some "higher' traits.

Just a few examples:

Moral (or usually expressed as the positivist “cooperative behavior”) has been shown to be an evolutionary trait that benefits human survival, e.g., “the Grandmother (& Grandfather) Hypothesis.”

Reciprocal Altruism, which traces its citation lineage to Darwin.

Ethical decisions to go to war and other conflict resolution explained through game theory.

VR/Marg

I think I got most of this, forgive me for not understanding it all. But I like the part about the "higher traits"...Higher than whom, than us?

Just a thought. It seems to me that we all sort of share an idea of goodness; Heaven is that place to many people, even to those who dont believe in anything. Of course I believe Jesus is right, he says that Heaven is within us.

The morality studies in a philosophy class I took years ago, submitted that the basis for the study of morality was based on this question.."Is it right because God says its right(being heaven within us), or is it right because it is right"? This is just me, but I would argue against the evolutionary idea of self preservation, of course it makes sense, to not kill one another so that we dont kill each other off, but it just doesnt explain enough, but again, thats just me.

Its gonna take me some more time to research your clickys, but thank you for your time and response.

"We didn't start the fire"

[jcd11235 0]

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Higher than whom, than us?

Higher than our base desires to merely eat and reproduce.

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This is just me, but I would argue against the evolutionary idea of self preservation, of course it makes sense, to not kill one another so that we dont kill each other off, but it just doesnt explain enough, but again, thats just me.

What doesn't it explain satisfactorily?

Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials!

[nerdgirl 0]

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The disparate fields of molecular biology, genetics, sociobiology, philosophy, evolutionary psychology, & economic game theory are exploring the biological basis for some "higher' traits.

But I like the part about the "higher traits"...Higher than whom, than us?

Normatively "higher" in comparison to our nearest non-human primate relatives and other mammals.

VR/Marg

Act as if everything you do matters, while laughing at yourself for thinking anything you do matters.
Tibetan Buddhist saying

[rynodigsmusic 0]

Quote

Quote

Higher than whom, than us?

Higher than our base desires to merely eat and reproduce.

Quote

This is just me, but I would argue against the evolutionary idea of self preservation, of course it makes sense, to not kill one another so that we dont kill each other off, but it just doesnt explain enough, but again, thats just me.

What doesn't it explain satisfactorily?

Its gonna take me some more time to research your clickys, but thank you for your time and response.

[rushmc 23]

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Quote

Quote

The disparate fields of molecular biology, genetics, sociobiology, philosophy, evolutionary psychology, & economic game theory are exploring the biological basis for some "higher' traits.

But I like the part about the "higher traits"...Higher than whom, than us?

Normatively "higher" in comparison to our nearest non-human primate relatives and other mammals.

VR/Marg

OK, after reading most of this and probably understanding less than most please answer me this question. What (or who or anything even remotely realated) determines what is right, and what is wrong? Where does the concept of right and wrong come from? Who or what is the arbiter of right and wrong? Where did this concept come from? How is this maintained? (ie;remains stable?)

Still just one question with listed variables..... sorry

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[ChasingBlueSky 0]

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OK, after reading most of this and probably understanding less than most please answer me this question. What (or who or anything even remotely realated) determines what is right, and what is wrong? Where does the concept of right and wrong come from? Who or what is the arbiter of right and wrong? Where did this concept come from? How is this maintained? (ie;remains stable?)

It's a very dynamic and subjective measurment decided by those who are in power at the time. They try to say it is based off the community standards, but those are never documented and they never say what community. Now that people realize the neocons will be shifting out of the central roll of power, they are pushing back against their ancient definition of whats right and moral.

_________________________________________
you can burn the land and boil the sea, but you can't take the sky from me....
I WILL fly again.....

[billvon 3,119]

>So those without one, or with one that is way out of wack could be the
>serial killers of innocent children?

Well, I suppose such a person could be a serial killer if you froze him and hit children over the head with him. You sorta need a cerebral cortex to do any thinking. (Or seeing, or moving, or just about anything.)

[billvon 3,119]

>What (or who or anything even remotely realated) determines what
>is right, and what is wrong?

Literally the government in power, via its laws and court system. (And constitution, if it has one.)

>Where does the concept of right and wrong come from?

From our biological drives originally. Since then we've been refining and adapting our "feelings" on things based on what works in practice and what doesn't, and by using our reason to create a logically coherent set of legal principles that guides our legal system.