Is the war in Iraq "winnable" for the US?

[base_nz 0]

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That was after you Burned over %80 of cities in Japan with fire bombings!...Then the two nukes.....


AMERICA.......FUCK YEA!!!.... Saving the world by destroying it one bit at a time

Hows your Japanese?

Good Thanks....not as fluent as i was in school.....

.....And you thought Kiwis couldn't fly!!!!

[base_nz 0]

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>I'm not sure how WWII can be considered not politically motivated.

We entered it because we were attacked.

So there wasnt a war Before you got attacked???? Tell that to the english in london who where getting blanket Bombed every day for a month...
While you sat back and watched...


In your expert opinion tell us how ww2 STARTED and then explain how it WASNT politicly motivated....

Actually dont try cos if you do.... you will just get ridiculed .....

Commonly, people believe World War 2 started in 1939.... On August 31, Hitler and the Nazis staged a Polish attack on a minor German radio station in order to justify a German invasion of Poland. On September 1, Hitler declared war on Poland stating one of his reasons for the invasion was because of "the attack by regular Polish troops on the Gleiwitz transmitter."

How was that NOT politically motivated?????? Love to hear your response........

.....And you thought Kiwis couldn't fly!!!!

[kelpdiver 2]

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So there wasnt a war Before you got attacked???? Tell that to the english in london who where getting blanket Bombed every day for a month...
While you sat back and watched...

Not getting involved was a perfectly legitimate choice to make, given the (up until WW2) horrific cost of WWI. As it was, FDR did far more than just watch, while he tried to get public opinion favorable to entering the war. Then Japan made it easy, just as Al Queda made it easy to war with Iraq.

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In your expert opinion tell us how ww2 STARTED and then explain how it wasnt politicly motivated....

Politics is the process by which governments take action, so anything can so be labeled. But its not really a useful tautology.

[billvon 3,114]

>So there wasnt a war Before you got attacked?

There was no war for us. We don't run the world, despite what some people here think. All we can do is decide FOR OURSELVES if we are going to fight.

>Tell that to the english in london who where getting blanket Bombed
>every day for a month... While you sat back and watched...

I think some study on what we were sending to England during that time is in order.

[base_nz 0]

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>So there wasnt a war Before you got attacked?

There was no war for us. We don't run the world, despite what some people here think. All we can do is decide FOR OURSELVES if we are going to fight.

>Tell that to the english in london who where getting blanket Bombed
>every day for a month... While you sat back and watched...

I think some study on what we were sending to England during that time is in order.

True true..... but still waiting on you to enlighten us why it wasn't politically motivated???????

Thats a HUGE statement to make and then give absolutely no explanation... Are you trying to say there was no political motivation after perl harbor and you joined the war just because you got attacked.....

Thats pretty ignorant!

.....And you thought Kiwis couldn't fly!!!!

[mnealtx 0]

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While you sat back and watched...

I take it you've never heard of Lend-Lease?

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Actually dont try cos if you do.... you will just get ridiculed .....

Indeed.

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[base_nz 0]

OK OK.... The" sat back and watched " wasnt a good call

Sorry guys

.....And you thought Kiwis couldn't fly!!!!

[billvon 3,114]

> True true..... but still waiting on you to enlighten us why it wasn't politically motivated?

We entered the war when we were attacked. That is pure self defense, and is about as far as you can get from political motivation.

>Are you trying to say there was no political motivation after perl harbor and
>you joined the war just because you got attacked.....

That was the primary reason, yes. We recognize such actions in our courts as applied to individuals. If you are attacked you have the right to defend yourself. If you are not attacked, then the issue becomes MUCH more murky.

Would we have entered the war anyway eventually, without being attacked? Perhaps. If that had been the case, you'd have a pretty good case that it was political.

(I am assuming you're not one of these people who thinks that any action taken by a government is by definition political.)

>Thats pretty ignorant!

I've been called worse by better people; I think I'll get over it.

[kelpdiver 2]

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There was no war for us. We don't run the world, despite what some people here think.

In 1941, we weren't close to running the world, and weren't prepared for this war. For the first few years, the pilots were badly outgunned by superior Zeros while the carriers played for survival, and of course the European mainland was secured by the Nazis. Had the country lacked the geographic advantages to allow it to catch up, it would have been quite a different result.

[billvon 3,114]

>In 1941, we weren't close to running the world, and weren't prepared
>for this war.

Agreed - nor are we running the world today. I think we will be better off overall once we understand that.

> For the first few years, the pilots were badly outgunned by superior Zeros
>while the carriers played for survival,

Throughout the entire war, the allies were outgunned and outmaneuvered by the aircraft of Japan and Germany. But for every one they shot down, we'd build five new fighters and train five new pilots. They tried to do the same, but we were smart enough to target their infrastructure so they could not maintain that output.

In the end, sheer productivity won the war.

[base_nz 0]

Roosevelt did several very questionable acts:



1. The exchange of American destroyers for British bases, September, 1940. - This was a clear departure from neutrality and was also a violation of some specific American laws.


2. The Lend-Lease Act in March, 1941. - In complete contradiction to the Neutrality Act, this made the United States a partner in the economic war against the Axis Powers globally.


3. The secret American-British staff talks in Washington in January - March, 1941. - Carefully concealed from congress at the time. At this time the administration spokesmen were still assuring everyone that there were no warlike implicationsof the Lend-Lease Act.


4. The inauguration of "naval patrols" for the purpose of reporting the presence of German submarines to British warships, in the Atlantic in April, 1941.


5. Sending American laborers to Northern Ireland to build a naval base.

6. The occupation of Iceland by American troops in July, 1941. (I do hope you don't need an explanation for this one)


7. The Atlantic Conference between Roosevelt and Churchill, August 9-12, 1941.


8. The orders to American warships to shoot at sight at German submarines, announced September 11, 41. (this is when hostilities actually started, not when war was declared after pearl harbour)

So if you think you where sitting around doing nothing... and then the Japanese attacked..... Then you joined the war ENTIRELY in self defense....

DREAM ON BROTHER

.....And you thought Kiwis couldn't fly!!!!

[kallend 2,147]

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While you sat back and watched...

I take it you've never heard of Lend-Lease?

.

The battle of Britain and the London Blitz were over when Lend Lease was signed.

The US refused to sell high octane aviation gasoline to Britain during the Battle of Britain.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[billvon 3,114]

>So if you think you where sitting around doing nothing...

Never claimed that. We were indirectly supporting our allies in all sorts of ways.

> and then the Japanese attacked.....

The Japanese did attack. If you missed that, you missed a lot of what happened during the war.

>Then you joined the war ENTIRELY in self defense....

At that point - yes, it was self defense. Like I said, we may have joined the war later for political reasons. But that didn't happen. We were attacked and we defended ourselves.

Again, compare it to a trial. Let's say you know this guy who is hitting on your girlfriend. You beat the crap out of him after he calls you a name. You go to court, there are arguments back and forth, you might be convicted of a crime, you might not.

But as soon as he hits YOU, you are justified in defending yourself. Doesn't matter if you hate his guts, or love the guy. Doesn't matter if you were selling him beer. Doesn't matter if you are in his political party. It is self defense, period.

[kallend 2,147]

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>So there wasnt a war Before you got attacked?

There was no war for us. We don't run the world, despite what some people here think. All we can do is decide FOR OURSELVES if we are going to fight.

But it's NOT all about US. WWII was going on with or without the US.

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>Tell that to the english in london who where getting blanket Bombed
>every day for a month... While you sat back and watched...

I think some study on what we were sending to England during that time is in order.

During the B of B and the London Blitz the US was not sending a whole lot, the neutrality acts were in force and war materials were forbidden (including aviation fuel which Britain had to import from the Dutch East Indies). The ten US pilots who volunteered did so DESPITE US law that forbade them from doing so. The US Ambassador to Britain, Joe Kennedy (who had distinct pro-Nazi tendencies) told Roosevelt to stop any support for Britain as Britain was only going to last another 2 weeks.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[base_nz 0]

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> and then the Japanese attacked.....

The Japanese did attack. If you missed that, you missed a lot of what happened during the war.

>Then you joined the war ENTIRELY in self defense....

At that point - yes, it was self defense. Like I said, we may have joined the war later for political reasons. But that didn't happen. We were attacked and we defended ourselves.

NO..... At the point of the attack politically,... you had already made the decision to go to war..

8. The orders to American warships to shoot at sight at German submarines, announced September 11, 41. (this is when hostilities actually started, not when war was declared after pearl harbour) ...


The order was not to fire if fired upon but to SHOOT ON SIGHT....when that order was given in my opinion you where at war....


Using your analogy...... There is a bully on the street next to yours.... Your dad tells you to stand on the street and if you see that bully you are to run up to him and smack him in the head.....

You are now standing on the street ....Your waiting for this bully when his mate walks up behind you and hits you with brick!......

So you go to THAT guys house and burn and nuke it.....

But you where ALREADY on the street blood pumping waiting for that first bully to show up so you could smash him.... YOU WHERE AT WAR THEN!!!!!! You should have been looking over your shoulder though

.....And you thought Kiwis couldn't fly!!!!

[billvon 3,114]

> You are now standing on the street ....Your waiting for this bully when
>his mate walks up behind you and hits you with brick!

You are then within your rights to defend yourself against this mate, and against the bully as well if he is standing with the mate.

>But you where ALREADY on the street blood pumping waiting for that
>first bully to show up so you could smash him.... YOU WHERE AT WAR
>THEN!

So in your view of the world, you would go to jail and the bully and his mate would go free, since you were theoretically "at war" first?

99.9% of the world disagrees with such a view.

[base_nz 0]

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So in your view of the world, you would go to jail and the bully and his mate would go free, since you were theoretically "at war" first?

99.9% of the world disagrees with such a view.

How in the WORLD did you come to that conclusion.......I think you have forgotten what you said ???



>I'm coming up blank in my attempt to recall a war that was not a result of politics.

World War II. - billvon


This started it......then

>I'm not sure how WWII can be considered not politically motivated.

We entered it because we were attacked. - billvon


And what i am trying to say is you where involved before the attack.... Your government had helped the war effort and had even given the order to fire apon any German subs it spotted.....BEFORE you where attacked by japan.....

So what i was trying to get accross in my analogy was that as soon as
your father had asked you to go to the street to look for the bully you where at war...

THEN you got smacked over the back of the head by his mate.......

I dont know where you got jail from and figured out my view on the world?..... But feel free to enlighten me with the thought process...

.....And you thought Kiwis couldn't fly!!!!

[kelpdiver 2]

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And what i am trying to say is you where involved before the attack.... Your government had helped the war effort and had even given the order to fire apon any German subs it spotted.....BEFORE you where attacked by japan.....

Of course just before he reminded you of all these actions you said the US did nothing, so you might have to excuse him for having trouble keeping score.

And you have failed to address the obvious problem of every government action being political. Can you identify any that aren't?

[base_nz 0]

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And what i am trying to say is you where involved before the attack.... Your government had helped the war effort and had even given the order to fire apon any German subs it spotted.....BEFORE you where attacked by japan.....

Of course just before he reminded you of all these actions you said the US did nothing, so you might have to excuse him for having trouble keeping score.

And you have failed to address the obvious problem of every government action being political. Can you identify any that aren't?

That was a hasty remark !
Exactly.... No I cant identify any wars that arnt politically motivated ( not wars that involve Countries anyway).... Billvon thought WW2 Was not politically motivated and pure self defense......I disagreed.....

And banter ensued

.....And you thought Kiwis couldn't fly!!!!

[kelpdiver 2]

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And you have failed to address the obvious problem of every government action being political. Can you identify any that aren't?

Exactly.... No I cant identify any wars that arnt politically motivated ( not wars that involve Countries anyway).... Billvon thought WW2 Was not politically motivated and pure self defense......I disagreed.....

not war...I said can you think of any government action that isn't political? And no, you can't, because by definition they all are. Which makes such a comment about WWII superficial to the point of uselessness.

If Japan did not attack, we would not have entered the war. Period.

[base_nz 0]

Bullshit!!!!!.....Why do you think that????

Read a little about what you had already done BEFORE you got attacked by Japan ( legally and Illegally) ..... I love they way every american thinks that they where just sitting there minding there own business when Japan attacked....You would have entered the war eventually.....

Hell...... You guys had a nice new big shinny bomb you wanted to show off.....America with a nuclear bomb they haven't used is like giving a kid a bike for xmas then telling him he cant ride it




>not war...I said can you think of any government action that isn't political? And no, you can't, because by definition they all are. Which makes such a comment about WWII superficial to the point of uselessness.



YEP...... Thats what ive been trying to get across to the person that
first made the comment......[:)

Done to death now!!

.....And you thought Kiwis couldn't fly!!!!

[jcd11235 0]

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YEP...... Thats what ive been trying to get across to the person that
first made the comment......[:)

Done to death now!!

I made the original comment that war is an extension of politics, and that I couldn't think of an exception. The whole discussion about why the US entered the war was irrelevant, since the US didn't start the war.

Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials!

[kelpdiver 2]

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Hell...... You guys had a nice new big shinny bomb you wanted to show off.....America with a nuclear bomb they haven't used is like giving a kid a bike for xmas then telling him he cant ride it

The trinity test wasn't until July 1945, 3.5 years after the entrance into the war. The first chain reaction wasn't achieved until late in 1942. So no, you'll need to come up with a new gimmick argument. You cry bullshit a lot for a guy in such desparate need of a fact checker.

[base_nz 0]

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Hell...... You guys had a nice new big shinny bomb you wanted to show off.....America with a nuclear bomb they haven't used is like giving a kid a bike for xmas then telling him he cant ride it

The trinity test wasn't until July 1945, 3.5 years after the entrance into the war. The first chain reaction wasn't achieved until late in 1942. So no, you'll need to come up with a new gimmick argument. You cry bullshit a lot for a guy in such desparate need of a fact checker.

Your Mums a fat checker....... Listen Poojab ,,,I know exactly when the tests where..... I meant If you wouldn't of joined when you did once you had that weapon you would have looked for the first war you could!....WW2..... Sorry if i didnt make it clear the first time...


I started off when someone made the statement that America joining the war was completely in self defense.... Therefor NOT politically motivated ......

I said bullshit and i would again .....

So where is the gimmick argument.....Tell me PLEASE what YOU think we where debating....Or did you not read back that far?

.....And you thought Kiwis couldn't fly!!!!

[Amazon 7]

The sad state of education seems to be more widespread than I thought