First Jews, now Catholics just say no...

[DSE 5]

to LDS geneologists.
The Vatican has ordered that LDS church members may no longer have access to parish records, as the Mormons use those records to submit names for baptism for the dead. In other words, Mormons baptize (by proxy) dead members of the Catholic church. This also includes having baptized many papal leaders of Catholic past, no different than how the Mormons baptized Simon Wiesenthal. The State of Israel has asked Mormons to stop the practice of baptizing those killed in the Holocaust, saying "They were born Jews, they lived as Jews, and died because they were Jews."
Read the story as reported by the LDS church, Read the story from the Catholic perspective.

What is your opinion? Is it right for a church to collect records of the dead, for purposes of baptism into the LDS church? Is it appropriate that the LDS faith has "baptized" all signatories of the US Constitution, Holocaust victims, Popes of past history, Native American leaders, and other cultural icons? The LDS church claims that they only baptize those that they've been asked to baptize, yet have been proven to be baptizing dead who have no progeny to request their baptisms.

[quade 4]

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What is your opinion? Is it right for a church to collect records of the dead, for purposes of baptism into the LDS church?

The irony here is that it should only matter IF you actually believe they have influence over the afterlife.

Otherwise, it's all just hogwash and doesn't matter; right?

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[Lindsey 0]

That's kind of what I was thinking. What are they actually doing when they baptize these dead people? What difference does it make? In my mind, it makes no difference whatsoever...unless the Mormons really DO have it right, and in that case those baptized souls should be grateful. :)

--
A conservative is just a liberal who's been mugged. A liberal is just a conservative who's been to jail

[shropshire 0]

If they have nothing better to do with their lives, why should anyone care? It's not like it matters one way or the other.

(.)Y(.)
Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome

[kelpdiver 2]

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That's kind of what I was thinking. What are they actually doing when they baptize these dead people? What difference does it make?

feels kind of creepy though. But as long as they're not digging up bodies...

[Andrewwhyte 1]

They can baptize John the Baptist for all I care; bunch o' kooks.

[JackC 0]

Who cares? If they want to waste their time with this pointless crap, let them. With 7 billion people on the planet and probably just as many dead, they'll be busy for a long time.

[DSE 5]

I agree, what they do doesn't physically matter if you don't follow the religion. At some point, it is sort of humorous..

On the other hand, if it shouldn't matter to anyone, what is the purpose of the State of Israel and the Vatican stepping forward to say "No more access to records because you are doing this or that with them?" Is it merely an emotional response or are there any practical merits to their argument?

[Tink1717 2]

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But as long as they're not digging up bodies...

Don't give them any ideas.

Skydivers don't knock on Death's door. They ring the bell and runaway... It really pisses him off.
-The World Famous Tink. (I never heard of you either!!)
AA #2069 ASA#33 POPS#8808 Swooo 1717

[jakee 1,596]

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On the other hand, if it shouldn't matter to anyone, what is the purpose of the State of Israel and the Vatican stepping forward to say "No more access to records because you are doing this or that with them?" Is it merely an emotional response or are there any practical merits to their argument?

It matters to them because they have their own crazy mythology and pointless rituals to protect. The LDS can perform their little ceremonies on whoever the hell they want, and the Vatican can stop whoever the hell they want from peeking into their books.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[DSE 5]

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It matters to them because they have their own crazy mythology and pointless rituals to protect. The LDS can perform their little ceremonies on whoever the hell they want, and the Vatican can stop whoever the hell they want from peeking into their books.

The _State_ of Israel doesn't have any crazy mythology or pointless ritual to protect.

[JackC 0]

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The _State_ of Israel doesn't have any crazy mythology or pointless ritual to protect.

Well, it depends on what you classify as crazy but since judaism does have certain beliefs and rituals to consider and that over 75% of the population of Israel is jewish, and the state of Israel has a duty to protect and serve the interests of it's people, it would be a reasonable to say that your statement isn't completely correct.

[DSE 5]

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The _State_ of Israel doesn't have any crazy mythology or pointless ritual to protect.

Well, it depends on what you classify as crazy but since judaism does have certain beliefs and rituals to consider and that over 75% of the population of Israel is jewish, and the state of Israel has a duty to protect and serve the interests of it's people, it would be a reasonable to say that your statement isn't completely correct.

I'll accept that argument if you can agree that as most of the USA is Christian, and the current administration has a very strong Christian policy, the US Government has an equal interest in protecting and serving the interests of Christians over Muslims, Jews, Bhuddists, Druids, and Rock Rollers.

[JackC 0]

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I'll accept that argument if you can agree that as most of the USA is Christian, and the current administration has a very strong Christian policy, the US Government has an equal interest in protecting and serving the interests of Christians over Muslims, Jews, Bhuddists, Druids, and Rock Rollers.

I'm not American so I only have a limited amount of information to go on, but yeah, it seems to me that they do. Basically, to be electable in the US you need to be christian. I doubt a muslim or an atheist would stand much of a chance.

[Andrewwhyte 1]

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I'm not American so I only have a limited amount of information to go on, but yeah, it seems to me that they do. Basically, to be electable in the US you need to be christian. I doubt a muslim or an atheist would stand much of a chance.

I think the fact that Obama's opponents have tried to paint him as a Muslim supports that.

[FallloutboyDAoC 0]

It annoys me that they're not satisfied with pressing their beliefs on the living, so they press their beliefs on the dead.

But w/e. Doesn't really matter.

[jakee 1,596]

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It matters to them because they have their own crazy mythology and pointless rituals to protect. The LDS can perform their little ceremonies on whoever the hell they want, and the Vatican can stop whoever the hell they want from peeking into their books.

The _State_ of Israel doesn't have any crazy mythology or pointless ritual to protect.

Yeah they do.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[likearock 2]

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It matters to them because they have their own crazy mythology and pointless rituals to protect. The LDS can perform their little ceremonies on whoever the hell they want, and the Vatican can stop whoever the hell they want from peeking into their books.

The _State_ of Israel doesn't have any crazy mythology or pointless ritual to protect.

Where did you get the information that the state of Israel asked the Mormons to stop? I found this which talks about private groups who objected, but not the government itself.

[DSE 5]

Local papers carried it, local rabbi talks about it fairly often. Not interested in searching the SL Trib for it, but I'm fairly confident the State of Israel asked, as opposed to specific (or non-specific) groups requesting the LDS faith stop baptizing their dead. IIRC, the Weisenthal request came a couple of years after the state asked. Part of the discussion I recall was tied to the BYU center in Jerusalem and alleged intimation that the LDS faith wouldn't be allowed to continue some of their works there.

[Andrewwhyte 1]

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Part of the discussion I recall was tied to the BYU center in Jerusalem and alleged intimation that the LDS faith wouldn't be allowed to continue some of their works there.

I have never been to Israel but I seem to recall mainstream Christian groups complaining about low level persecution there so It wouldn't surprise me.

[likearock 2]

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Local papers carried it, local rabbi talks about it fairly often. Not interested in searching the SL Trib for it, but I'm fairly confident the State of Israel asked, as opposed to specific (or non-specific) groups requesting the LDS faith stop baptizing their dead. IIRC, the Weisenthal request came a couple of years after the state asked. Part of the discussion I recall was tied to the BYU center in Jerusalem and alleged intimation that the LDS faith wouldn't be allowed to continue some of their works there.

Putting aside the issue that there is no confirmation of your assertion that you've been able to show us, do you really want to get into the business of what a Holocaust survivor should or shouldn't take issue with?

Sure, it sounds like a silly thing to get upset with to us. But we haven't witnessed our families starved and humiliated for the sole reason that they were Jews. If they see having their dead relatives baptized as reopening the wound and further traumatizing an already traumatic condition, who are we to judge?

I suggest to you that the effort of the Weisenthal group and others had nothing whatsoever to do with a religious objection. Rather, it had to do with acting on the behalf of the sizable population in Israel and elsewhere that have been touched by the Holocaust.

[DSE 5]

It has little to do with the Holocaust. I'm not in a position to try terribly hard to dig into your question related to an early 90's issue. Contrary to popular thought, everything ever written isn't online, and it may be my memory isn't entirely correct. http://www.jewishgen.org/InfoFiles/ldsagree.html does speak of a rabbi sponsored by the Israeli government if that is really the point you wish to focus upon.
Saints of the Catholic faith have been "converted" by proxy, as have other major cultural leaders such as RedCloud, George Washington, and tens of thousands of others.
Perhaps the question should have been, "do you feel it is appropriate that Catholic and Judaic organizations have taken steps to prevent LDS access to their records in order to stop LDS from baptizing in the names found within those records?"
Most respondents here have indicated that it doesn't matter what is done with the names of their dead. Works for me, sorta.

[tbrown 26]

It doesn't matter so much what actually happens, or doesn't happen, to the dead. Your grandparents who are long gone are not going to suddenly become Mormons. If they are anything at all, they'll stay just as they are, whether that's Jewish, Catholic, or reincarnated as a giraffe (now a Mormon giraffe is something to think about...).

But where the harm is done is in the complete disrespect and arrogance that is shown to the living communities the deceased belonged to. Especially in the case of the Jews, who were murdered by the millions for simply being who they were. It does nothing to the deceased, but is a slap in the face to the living. The Vatican is right to ban the Mormons from church records.

Your humble servant.....Professor Gravity !