One more instance of government out of control

[CSpenceFLY 1]

I know where this will end up but anyway,

http://www.biologicaldiversity.org/news/press_releases/2008/clear-creek-05-02-2008.html


Center Applauds Closure of Clear Creek Management Area for
Public Health and Endangered Species Protection

HOLLISTER, Calif.– The Bureau of Land Management closed to the public over 30,000 acres of the Clear Creak Management Area in response to a multi-year Environmental Protection Agency report that concluded that the carcinogenic asbestos stirred up by motorcycles, all-terrain vehicles, and sport utility vehicles pose a serious health risk to visitors.

“It’s about time that the agency steps in to protect public health,” said Chris Kassar, a biologist with the Center for Biological Diversity. “The EPA study confirms that asbestos levels and toxic dust kicked up by off-road vehicles is a much greater health hazard than previously thought, and the Bureau of Land Management is going to have to be very careful about how they manage this area in the future.”

The Clear Creek Management Area, near Coalinga in San Benito and Fresno Counties, contains one of the largest naturally occurring asbestos deposits on Earth, and the land is dotted with abandoned asbestos and mercury mines. Visitors entering Clear Creek's 30,000-acre "red zone" see signs warning of asbestos exposure and are warned to avoid breathing dust and drinking water from the area.

The EPA has been reporting high levels of asbestos for years, but the recent assessment is the most conclusive reporting alarming statistics like the fact that five visits a year to the Clear Creek Management Area over three decades could lead to lung cancer and other crippling diseases.

Protecting public health isn’t the only concern in the area. The Center for Biological Diversity and the California Native Plant Society filed suit in federal court in 2004 in an effort to get the Bureau of Land Management to manage off-road vehicle abuse until it acted to protect the threatened San Benito evening primrose, a wildflower found only in the Clear Creek area. About two-thirds of the area's colonies of the primrose have been harmed by off -road activity, and one colony of 1,476 plants was wiped out by off-road drivers between 2000 and 2003. As a result of this lawsuit, off-road use was officially restricted to 242 miles of trails to protect the primrose and other fragile species.

For a link to the EPA study, click here.

[BillyVance 35]

Why would the government be out of control on this specific issue? Now that I know about this, I wouldn't want to walk through that place. Would you? Asbestos = BAD.

That said, there are many other instances where the government is truly out of control.

"Mediocre people don't like high achievers, and high achievers don't like mediocre people." - SIX TIME National Champion coach Nick Saban

[CSpenceFLY 1]

I bet you can find another group to do a study that wold say it is perfectly safe to be there. Can you say tree huggers and special interest?

[BillyVance 35]

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I bet you can find another group to do a study that wold say it is perfectly safe to be there. Can you say tree huggers and special interest?

Probably... I don't like the tree huggers and Berkeley types any more than I do big government, but you make a good point.

"Mediocre people don't like high achievers, and high achievers don't like mediocre people." - SIX TIME National Champion coach Nick Saban

[kallend 2,148]

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I bet you can find another group to do a study that wold say it is perfectly safe to be there. Can you say tree huggers and special interest?

Can you point to a single medical or scientific study that says exposure to asbestos is safe?

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[BillyVance 35]

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I bet you can find another group to do a study that wold say it is perfectly safe to be there. Can you say tree huggers and special interest?

Can you point to a single medical or scientific study that says exposure to asbestos is safe?

Like I said before, I wouldn't walk through that area, especially if there are old asbestos mines around.

There was an asbestos manufacturing plant in a small town 15 miles up the road from me that went kaput in the early 80's. Almost every employee that worked there got sick and died in the years during and after.

"Mediocre people don't like high achievers, and high achievers don't like mediocre people." - SIX TIME National Champion coach Nick Saban

[CSpenceFLY 1]

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I bet you can find another group to do a study that wold say it is perfectly safe to be there. Can you say tree huggers and special interest?

Can you point to a single medical or scientific study that says exposure to asbestos is safe?

I'm not saying asbestos is safe. I'm saying the danger in this area has been fabricated by some tree hugging group that wanted to stop the use of this area by ATVs. They may not have planned on the hiking to be stopped also but then again you never know. Some of those groups would have us all drink some special KoolAid to put us all out of the Earths misery.

[kallend 2,148]

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I bet you can find another group to do a study that wold say it is perfectly safe to be there. Can you say tree huggers and special interest?

Can you point to a single medical or scientific study that says exposure to asbestos is safe?

I'm not saying asbestos is safe. I'm saying the danger in this area has been fabricated by some tree hugging group that wanted to stop the use of this area by ATVs. They may not have planned on the hiking to be stopped also but then again you never know. Some of those groups would have us all drink some special KoolAid to put us all out of the Earths misery.

Oh, the Kool Aid argument re-surfaces. That's usually a sign that you have no basis in fact for your position.

So tell us how these "tree huggers" fabricated the danger from asbestos.

Is the following sentence a fabrication?
The Clear Creek Management Area, near Coalinga in San Benito and Fresno Counties, contains one of the largest naturally occurring asbestos deposits on Earth, and the land is dotted with abandoned asbestos and mercury mines.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[CSpenceFLY 1]

I didn't know there was a KoolAid argument.

It has to do with the type of asbestos it is(I'll find the reference to the types when I have time) and whether simply being in the area is dangerous. Also, If I choose to go there(if there was a danger) I would only be indangering myself.

I don't need anyone protecting me from myself.

[BillyVance 35]

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I don't need anyone protecting me from myself.

Fair enough. But I would rather be warned than go there not knowing the danger.

That said, I guess your beef is that they are restricting access to the land?

"Mediocre people don't like high achievers, and high achievers don't like mediocre people." - SIX TIME National Champion coach Nick Saban

[Amazon 7]

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Fair enough. But I would rather be warned than go there not knowing the danger.

That said, I guess your beef is that they are restricting access to the land?

Personally I think it best to close off sites like this.. There are a lot of people.. myself included who when we are young and stupid.. just do not get it. People like that do indeed need to be protected from themselves...myself included. Breathing in that crap can do far more harm than the short term benefits of riding my RV. In this case.. being a geologist.. I do believe it best to close it off.. let nature take over and let plants grow that will cut down on the dust potential. Riding RV's in such an area kills off the plants and allows that crap to blow downwind. A good ground cover of plants will stabilize the dust and prevent people from the effects of asbestos, both the riders.. and people living downwind.

Asbestos is some nasty crap and stays wih you and can kill in you in a very nasty way.

[billvon 3,116]

>I don't need anyone protecting me from myself.

How about a compromise -

Keep the area open and post signs around it saying "no kids allowed, dangerous carcinogens in the area, EMS services not available." Then let people use the area if they want to take the risk.

[Gawain 0]

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>I don't need anyone protecting me from myself.

How about a compromise -

Keep the area open and post signs around it saying "no kids allowed, dangerous carcinogens in the area, EMS services not available." Then let people use the area if they want to take the risk.

That's an outstanding compromise. Unfortunately, that kind of common sense won't prevail in California...you know that.

So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh
Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright
'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life
Make light!

[CSpenceFLY 1]

There were already signs in the area.

[Andrewwhyte 1]

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There are a lot of people.. myself included who when we are young and ....

Got a bit of a tense issue there sweetie.

[CSpenceFLY 1]

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I don't need anyone protecting me from myself.

Fair enough. But I would rather be warned than go there not knowing the danger.

That said, I guess your beef is that they are restricting access to the land?

Yes and No. My first concern would be is this a true danger or is it just another instance of tree huggers trumping up reasons for humans not to use an area. You will not convince me that it is unsafe for me to go hiking in that 30,000 acre area.

[lawrocket 3]

There are also extensive deposits of silica located along the California coastline and in the deserts. In many places, such as the Pismo Dunes, large amounts of silica are kicked up by ATV's, motorcycles, and even the winds. Pneumonoultramicroscopicsilicovolcanoconiosis is the result of microscopic silica infiltrating the lungs.

Areas rich in silica should be closed, as well.

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[billvon 3,116]

> There were already signs in the area.

There are signs everywhere. I'd want signs to state specifically what the danger was, making it clear that kids were not allowed there, and stating that emergency services were not available (at a minimum.) Not having EMS could mean your death instead of a serious injury, so that should be made very clear.

[Amazon 7]

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Keep the area open and post signs around it saying "no kids allowed, dangerous carcinogens in the area, EMS services not available." Then let people use the area if they want to take the risk.

Are we supposed to take care of them later when they are deathly ill and racking up medical bills because they were to stupid to avoid inhaling asbestos..

Far too many people have the attitude .... screw it.. I wont get sick from a little dust...yeah right.. I dont think they have a right to be a burden on the rest of us because they are being stupid.

[billvon 3,116]

>Are we supposed to take care of them later when they are deathly ill and
>racking up medical bills because they were to stupid to avoid inhaling
>asbestos..

Nope. Hence the signs. Might even need waivers, because without them you _know_ they are going to sue.

[BillyVance 35]

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>Are we supposed to take care of them later when they are deathly ill and
>racking up medical bills because they were to stupid to avoid inhaling
>asbestos..

Nope. Hence the signs. Might even need waivers, because without them you _know_ they are going to sue.

That's probably true. After all, we are the most litigious nation in the world.

Oh, and Spence, I love you man, but... as far as going to that place, I still won't. Amazon is right, once you breathe in asbestos, it ain't coming out. I learned a lot from the extensive newspaper articles on that plant near my home as I mentioned before. Just not worth the risk. Yeah I know, fucked up logic considering we set ourselves up for certain death every time we jump from an aircraft. But I would rather die a quick death skydiving than a protracted, long and painful death from asbestos.

"Mediocre people don't like high achievers, and high achievers don't like mediocre people." - SIX TIME National Champion coach Nick Saban

[mirage62 0]

Recently an area that I had been riding in for over 30 years was closed. Normal reasons...."save the enviroment" In this case a certain bird (I believe) was the legal reason. In the course of almost all the land closing a certain amount of Trails are left open - to show how fair the enviromentalist are. The problem is that these trails get beaten to death by over use. In my plus 30 years of riding this area I never saw a hiker more than 2 miles into the property. (Bugs and Fla heat to much for the hikers) So now it's closed. The protest are over, the current trails will never repair themselfs because they are waaaaaay over used. It sure made the "tree huggers" happy when they got it closed.

Kevin Keenan is my hero, a double FUP, he does so much with so little

[kelpdiver 2]

two separate problems described here:

1) asbetos exposure is bad - if this problem is real, probably not the best place for allowing ATV recreation.

2) California has not been very friendly to ATV recreation - if you close every park but one in a 100 mile range, it's no surprise that the impact on the last one will be greater. I believe the state has enough crappy desert land that some can be sacrified to recreation. Certainly no worse than another golf course with all the chemicals and water waste.

San Francisco sees a similar problem with dog parks.

[CSpenceFLY 1]

Food for thought:

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The word "asbestos" is a vernacular name given to six types of naturally occurring fibrous amphibole and serpentine minerals. Asbestos paranoia began in the 1970s soon after Dr. Irving Selikoff, of Mt. Sinai School of Medicine, found that some workers, occupationally exposed to certain amphibole (non-serpentine) type asbestos fibers, were at increased risk of lung disease. While Dr. Selikoff's work played a key role in removing amphibole asbestos from industry, the nescient media, driven by the need for hysteria headlines, created public panic and a billion dollar industry associated with "evil" asbestos. The issue is further exasperated by the Environmental Protection Agency's (EPA) unwillingness to accurately represent the facts. Generally the media and the EPA fail to differentiate between amphibole and chrysotile (serpentine) fibers used for asbestos, and that failure has cost billions in unnecessary expense, the loss of many lives and endangered thousands of people.

Without exception, every human study in the United States showing asbestos etiology is associated with amphibole fiber asbestos, and there is not a single study showing chrysotile etiology. In fact, every study of chrysotile fiber has shown it to be harmless, even in cases of excessive exposure. The EPA, purposefully ignoring the scientific evidence, has created dangerous policy base solely on pseudoscience, that has cause the death of thousand of people whose lives could have been protected had harmless chrysotile asbestos not been removed from industry. For example, many leading professional blamed the rapid structural failure of the World Trade Center on the asbestos ban that stopped the use of (chrysotile) asbestos insulation above the 64th floor. Even the loss of the Columbia Space Shuttle can be traced back to the removal of chrysotile asbestos fiber from the failed o-ring that caused the disaster.

The official California State Rock is serpentine, the major source of chrysotile asbestos. Millions of acres of the California Coast Ranges and western slope of the Sierra Nevada are underlain by chrysotile asbestos bearing rock and soil which have been there for millions of years. Most of the San Francisco Bay area is underlain by these same rock formations. Were it as dangerous as some government agencies such as the EPA imply, thousands of Californians would be dead and dying from it .. but no one is ill or dying from exposure to chrysotile asbestos.

Of course, mainstream media, the EPA and other pseudoscientist would never permit truth to interfere with their dedication to purpose ... whatever that "propose" might be. They have successfully demonized "asbestos" causing many people to believe that it is one of the world's great evils. They conveniently - no, they purposely and neglectfully ignored the fact that not all asbestos is dangerous and the natural occurring asbestos found in the Clear Creek Management Area is chrysotile, a harmless serpentine mineral.

Chrysotile is not an amphibole fiber and according to all scientific studies, Chrysotile is harmless to humans. In fact a recent study published in Inhalation Toxicology (Volume 15, Number 14/Dec 2003) "Comparison of Calidria Chrysotile Asbestos to Pure Tremolite: Inhalation Biopersistence and Histopathology Following Short-Term Exposure" concluded that chrysotile "fiber is not associated with lung disease."

Tremolite, another mineral used to produce asbestos, is an amphibole mineral. The hard, needle-like fibers of tremolite penetrate into the lung tissue by piercing the walls of the alveoli. Since your body cannot dissolve or dispose of the amphibole fibers they cause a scarring of the lungs, called asbestosis, or cause a cancer of the lining (pleura) of the lung, called mesothelioma. No naturally occurring tremolite has been found in the Clear Creek Management Area. There is a rumor of finding tremolite in the Clear Creek Management Area. However, this so-called "discovery" is based upon finding one microfiber during an electronmicroscopy examination of a filter from a personal air-sampler associated with human activity. This was a contaminated sample collected through inaccurate nonscientific methods which a real scientist or technologist would immediately disqualify. Regrettably, there are a few people who would like to use this as "scientific evidence" that tremolite has been found in the Clear Creek Management Area.

Summary:

* Chrysotile asbestos is not harmful
* There is no asbestos danger in the Clear Creek Management Area
* The BLM closure is based on erroneous EPA data

[Amazon 7]

Desert for REAL thought Spence

When chrysotile is used in large fibrous masses it is safer than other types of asbestos..or amphibole... BUT... this is a mine area... the dust created by constant pounding creates the dust which is HIGHLY mobile.. and HIGHLY toxic.


http://www.maacenter.org/asbestos/chrysotile.php



Chrysotile Products
About 90% of the world production of chrysotile is used in the manufacture of chrysotile-cement, in the form of pipes, sheets and shingles. According to the Canadians, some 60 industrialized and developing nations use these asbestos-containing products due in part to their cost-effectiveness and durability.

Other products that include chrysotile asbestos include those classified as "friction" products, such as brake shoes, disk pads, and clutches for automobiles as well as elevators brakes. Chrysotile may also be found in some textiles, plastics, rubber products, caulking, paper, roof sealants, and gaskets. Chrysotile fibers are also used in asphalt, and the roads in some countries - including parts of Canada - are paved with the material. Proponents of chrysotile claim that when mixed when asphalt, the material increases wear resistance without a loss of stability.

Is Chrysotile Safe?
The fact remains that all forms of asbestos are carcinogenic, including chrysotile, and doctors and researchers have said again and again that no level of exposure is safe. Though the amphibole varieties of the mineral (such as amosite and crocidolite) are more likely to cause mesothelioma and other asbestos-diseases when inhaled, exposure to this serpentine variety carries the chance of developing cancer as well.

In fact, studies done in areas of Canada where chrysotile is mined - particularly Quebec - show that individuals who live in the mine areas have a greater incidence of developing an asbestos-related disease. And while the "new" form of encased chrysotile is certainly safer than what was previously used in commercial products, prolonged exposure remains a problem.