“America has hardly even begun to repay its debt to Iraq”

[billvon 3,120]

>a bit misleading, Mr. Moderator.

Ah! Please point us to the Congressional Declarations of War for the Vietnam War or the Iraq War, then.

[mnealtx 0]

Quote

>a bit misleading, Mr. Moderator.

Ah! Please point us to the Congressional Declarations of War for the Vietnam War or the Iraq War, then.

Or Korea, for that matter - exactly why I said it was misleading, and we've been over this before.

The President can commit troops - Congress declares war. Two different things, but (of course) being able to talk about 'illegal wars' makes SUCH a better soundbite, doesn't it?

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[kelpdiver 2]

he didn't talk about illegal wars - he pointed out the obvious - that any notion that Congress runs the show and the President is a figurehead is false.

The War Powers Act was passed in response to the oversold Gulf of Tonkin Incident, as well as Nixon's war in Cambodia.

'The War Powers Act requires that the president notify Congress within 48 hours of committing troops to military action and forbids troops from remaining for more than 90 days without a declaration of war.'

It's yet to be effectively enforced or reviewed by the courts. But it's existence clearly supports Bill's posting.

[billvon 3,120]

>The President can commit troops - Congress declares war.

Agreed. But unless you are going to start claiming that what is happening in Iraq (and what happened in Vietnam) is not a war, then my original statement stands. The president began a war without a congressional declaration of war as required by our constitution.

[mnealtx 0]

Quote

and forbids troops from remaining for more than 90 days without a declaration of war.'

partially correct - the actual wording is:

The constitutional powers of the President as Commander-in-Chief to introduce United States Armed Forces into hostilities, or into situations where imminent involvement in hostilities is clearly indicated by the circumstances, are exercised only pursuant to (1) a declaration of war, (2) specific statutory authorization, or (3) a national emergency created by attack upon the United States, its territories or possessions, or its armed forces.

As such, (and this is in response to Bill, too) the President CAN commit troops, given that authorization is given by Congress - I refer you to the Iraq Resolution, which authorizes the troops.

QED, the president is NOT declaring war, which is EXACTLY what Bill stated in his post, however he tries to weasel out of it now.

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[billvon 3,120]

>the president is NOT declaring war . . .

Then there is no war, since no one has declared it. When are the troops coming home?

Or are you going to start to refer to the Iraq troop commitment exercise now? I like that even better than "limited police action."

[mnealtx 0]

Quote

>the president is NOT declaring war . . .

Then there is no war, since no one has declared it. When are the troops coming home?

Or are you going to start to refer to the Iraq troop commitment exercise now? I like that even better than "limited police action."

When do the troops come home from Clinton's 'undeclared war'?

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[KidWicked 0]

Quote

Quote

>the president is NOT declaring war . . .

Then there is no war, since no one has declared it. When are the troops coming home?

Or are you going to start to refer to the Iraq troop commitment exercise now? I like that even better than "limited police action."

When do the troops come home from Clinton's 'undeclared war'?

I love how you invoke Clinton as a last resort. Lame.

Coreece: "You sound like some skinheads I know, but your prejudice is with Christians, not niggers..."

[billvon 3,120]

>When do the troops come home from Clinton's 'undeclared war'?

Clinton was no better, and the whole CDIF thing is getting REALLY old.

[mnealtx 0]

So is the "it's all Bush's fault" thing.

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[billvon 3,120]

> So is the "it's all Bush's fault" thing.

Who said it was "all Bush's fault?" This has been going on for decades, at least since FDR. It was the subject of a book written in 1973. If I recall correctly, neither Bush was president at that time.

You're unusually hung up on the Bush vs Clinton thing today for some reason.

[kelpdiver 2]

Quote

So is the "it's all Bush's fault" thing.

You see, Bill and I view this as a problem with the Executive Branch. You can't get past the partisan issues in your mind and see this as a govermental issue. This isn't about Iraq specifically (and as you mention, Congress did authorize action).

Once troops are sent somewhere to fight, you have a war, regardless of what you want to call it. If they can't pull up and leave a few weeks later, it's a war, and one that Congress did not authorize.

It's a big shift in power. FDR wanted the US in WWII, but couldn't until Pearl Harbor happened. However, if he was any President from Kennedy on, he just would have sent in troops without asking, and given the fog of war in that era, probably could have been fighting for a while before it even got to Congress.

[mnealtx 0]

Quote

> So is the "it's all Bush's fault" thing.

Who said it was "all Bush's fault?" This has been going on for decades, at least since FDR. It was the subject of a book written in 1973. If I recall correctly, neither Bush was president at that time.

You're unusually hung up on the Bush vs Clinton thing today for some reason.

Agreed - you did say "nowadays, presidents have usurped that right", my apologies.

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[SkyHigh04 0]

I just want to say that the reason I never discuss politics with people is because there is ALWAYS someone who thinks they have a better answer/view than you do. This thread and others like it prove my point. Thank you for your time and please continue with the political bickering.

"...And once you have tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards, for there you have been, and there you long to return..." - Leonardo da Vinci

[kelpdiver 2]

Quote

I just want to say that the reason I never discuss politics with people is because there is ALWAYS someone who thinks they have a better answer/view than you do. This thread and others like it prove my point. Thank you for your time and please continue with the political bickering.

Are you sure you're cut out for skydiving?

[SkyHigh04 0]

I've already gone skydiving...

"...And once you have tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards, for there you have been, and there you long to return..." - Leonardo da Vinci

[ElJosh 0]

Quote

I just want to say that the reason I never discuss politics with people is because there is ALWAYS someone who thinks they have a better answer/view than you do. This thread and others like it prove my point. Thank you for your time and please continue with the political bickering.

haha just read my sig line.
~El Josh AKA Ruby

DS #149
Yes I only have 3 jumps...it's the magic number dude.

[kelpdiver 2]

Quote

I've already gone skydiving...

tandems aren't the same thing. Nor AFF where you have a really good safety net.

In here, the worst someone can do is hurl nasty words at you for your silly political beliefs (and may get a 2 week vacation in response). There's nothing to be afraid of.

[SkyHigh04 0]

Well first of all, you just said "skydiving" and as I stated...I've gone skydiving. Weather I was strapped to someone, by myself, or strapped to an elephant, I jumped out of a plane and landed safely on the ground under an open canopy...therefore I went skydiving, therefore I'm correct in my response lol

I'm not afraid of skydiving if that's what you're implying. I'm not afraid of death either. I will live my life how I want and when a higher power wants me, however it happens, it will take me. If you live your life without having taken any risks, have you truly lived at all? "Dream as if you'll live forever, live as if you'll die today" -James Dean

"...And once you have tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards, for there you have been, and there you long to return..." - Leonardo da Vinci

[billvon 3,120]

>Weather I was strapped to someone, by myself, or strapped to
>an elephant, I jumped out of a plane and landed safely on the ground
>under an open canopy . . .

True. However, some of us see a difference between being a passenger and a pilot. Not to say that tandem is a problem at all, just that it's a first step (and not the only step) towards becoming a skydiver.

[SkyHigh04 0]

Agreed =)

"...And once you have tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards, for there you have been, and there you long to return..." - Leonardo da Vinci