Amnesty International’s Ad Against Waterboarding

[kschilk 0]

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Ah, so as long as we don't do anything quite as bad as our oponents, then we're just fine!

I'm not making a morality call, after all...we're talking war here and last time I looked, there wasn't anything really moral about it. Until we do "worse" to them, they have no right, to say s**t about anything...plain and simple. Like I said, no prisoners....that should please everyone.

"T'was ever thus."

[jakee 1,596]

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Until we do "worse" to them, they have no right, to say s**t about anything...plain and simple.

It's not them though, it's me. Justify it to me. Also, justify it to the people who've been tortured who had nothing to do with the war. Do they have any right to say shit about it?

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[Gawain 0]

I don't know anything about interrogation techniques used by the US or other countries. I do know that intense enough pain infliction will not yield ideal results all the time. I honestly believe it depends on the individual.

Physical pain or the sensation of pain/discomfort may be the "button" for someone. For others, it may be sensory deprivation. Is sensory deprivation a form of torture?

Now, do I believe in torture? I do not. However, the "what constitutes torture?" arguments have me at a disadvantage. I do not advocate taking any tools out of our "toolbox" to get the job done. Nor do I believe we should conduct ourselves in a manner that unnecessarily exposes ourselves and alienates what I believe to be noble efforts in our place in this world.

So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh
Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright
'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life
Make light!

[kschilk 0]

As I see it, there isn't really anyone, who has had nothing to do with the war. If you paid your taxes in the US, you supported the US in the war by helping to finance it.

As for prisoner treatment....why should we not do to their's, what they do to ours? There are no walls around any country, that I know of...if someone disagrees with their government, regime or whatever...they can either change it, leave it or support it. There is really no such thing as "innocent civilians", in war.

Maybe you should pose your question to the family of one of our civilian contractors, truck drivers or journalists, who was kidnapped, tortured and beheaded!?

"T'was ever thus."

[likearock 2]

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The document jakee provided was great. it had some things in there about reliability bbeing questioned during the Inquisition.

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And thus coerced they
say that what is false is true, choosing to die once rather than
to endure more torture. As a result of these false and coerced
confessions not only do those making confessions perish, but
so do the innocent people named by them…. [M]any of those
who are newly cited to appear [before the inquisitors], hearing
of the torments and trials of those who are detained…assert that
what is false is true; in which assertions they accuse not only
themselves but other innocent people, that they may avoid the
above mentioned pains…. Those who thus confess afterward
reveal to their close friends that those things that they said to the
inquisitors are not true, but rather false, and they confessed out
of imminent danger.

In order for it to be effective, you gotta find someone who truly knows the answer. If the vitctim does not you have wasted time with shoddy intelligence.

Which in no way contradicts what I said. Please read more carefully.

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I agree that there would be plenty of false confessions as well. That and the fact that I don't want to give our enemies justification to torture us lead to my opposition.

But there are circumstances where you do know who knows the answer. Again consider the scenario of a ticking bomb. Suppose from the overwhelming forensic evidence, you know who did it, but he won't tell you where it is. What does that study say about that scenario?

[Andrewwhyte 1]

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--
As an organization, I think AA lost much of its influence in the US from its opposition to the death penalty. Our society generally supports capital punishment, but could be influenced on the other rights violations that AA tries to fight. But probably not by them anymore.

Same problem with Greenpeace lumping together sea environment issues (whales, fishing) with a total war against anything nuclear. I'll never support them.

I have to agree a lot of what AA has done over the last fifteen years has detracted from their "real" work
As a point of trivia, Greenpeace was first and foremost an anti-nuke group. Their first action ever was to sail the Sea Shepherd into the way of French nuclear testing in the south Pacific.

[nerdgirl 0]

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You state "torture" is not effective. How do you know this?

It is completely reasonable to ask on what I based my assertion w/r/t the ineffectiveness of torture as an interrogation technique for gaining useful intelligence. And since you did ask ...

If I did (I don’t) have knowledge of specific classified interrogation methods, I would not post them here.

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Because some scholar behind a desk says so?

Yes, actually.

Soldier-scholars like those who wrote the US Army Field Manual 2-22.3 Human Intelligence Collector Operations (warning large pdf file). Of course they probably had some non-“desk Warrior” advisement.

And soldier-scholars who wrote US Army FM 34-52 Intelligence Interrogation (another large pdf file), which states in Chapter 1, under the heading “Prohibition Against Use of Force”

“Experience indicates that the use of force is not necessary to gain the cooperation of sources for interrogation. Therefore, the use of force is a poor technique, as it yields unreliable results, may damage subsequent collection efforts, and can induce the source to say whatever he thinks the interrogator wants to hear. However, the use of force is not to be confused with psychological ploys, verbal trickery, or other nonviolent and noncoercive ruses used by the interrogator in questioning hesitant or uncooperative sources.”

“The psychological techniques and principles outlined should neither be confused with, nor construed to be synonymous with, unauthorized techniques such as brainwashing, mental torture, or any other form of mental coercion to include drugs. These techniques and principles are intended to serve as guides in obtaining the willing cooperation of a source. The absence of threats in interrogation is intentional, as their enforcement and use normally constitute violations of international law and may result in prosecution under the UCMJ.”

Unilateral, non-ambiguous statement with further detailing what not to do, i.e., don't use torture because it's not effective.

FM 35-42 also warns: “Revelation of use of torture by U.S. personnel will bring discredit upon the U.S. and its armed forces while undermining domestic and international support for the war effort.”

Scholars like the active duty and retired Marines who are members of the United States Marine Corps Interrogator Translator Teams Association, whose journal masthead reflects their experience and opinion:

“…despite the complexities and difficulties of dealing with an enemy from such a hostile and alien culture, some American interrogators consistently managed to extract useful information from prisoners. The successful interrogators all had one thing in common in the way they approached their subject. They were nice to them.” Maj Sherwood Moran, USMCR - Guadalcanal 1942”

Maj Moran’s direct experience and advice, which include recommendations like know their language, know their culture, and treat the captured enemy as a human being, was written up in this June 2005 article largely inspired by Marines discussing it on their version of Speakers Corner.

Over & over again the psychology behind coercion and cooperation has been shown to be the critical element in effective interrogation techniques. Maj Moran excelled at extracting information from the enemy by appealing to their humanity, rather than by shocking, oppressing, or torturing.

Scholars like LTC James Corum, USA (ret), formerly Army Command and General Staff College and also fellow at All Souls College, Oxford University, who has stated “The torture of suspects [at Abu Ghraib] did not lead to any useful intelligence information being extracted."

Other scholars like GEN Colin Powell, USA (ret), and the 42 other retired generals and admirals and 18 national security experts, including former secretaries of state and national security advisers, who supported “HR 2082, the "Intelligence Authorization Act for Fiscal Year 2008” (the bill that would have required the CIA to essentially use the Army FM 2-22.3 as guidance – & that’s ‘guidance’ in military speak not popular vernacular – w/r/t interrogation operations, which President Bush vetoed. His veto is actually more complicated and reflects large executive branch privilege disagreements, imo).

Scholars like:

Ray McGovern 27-year veteran of the CIA and was responsible for preparing & delivering PDB’s to President Reagan and President HW Bush.

David Becker, DIA

John Berglund, DHS

Brian Boetig, FBI

Michael Gelles, NCIS

Michael Kremlacek U.S. Army Intelligence

Robert McFadden, CIFA (it’s a DoD agency)

C.A. Morgan III, Intelligence Technology Innovation Center (aka ITIC, part of CIA, unless they’re ‘officially’ ODNI now)

Kenneth Rollins, Joint Personnel Recovery Agency (another DoD agency)

Scott Shumate, CIFA

Andre Simons, FBI

John Wahlquist, National Defense Intelligence College (part of DIA)

And finally scholars like Sen John McCain who has said

“I would hope that we would understand, my friends, that life is not 24 and Jack Bauer. [One might argue that "the real world" could be substituted for Sen McCain's use of the "life" - nerdgirl]

“Life is interrogation techniques which are humane and yet effective. And I just came back from visiting a prison in Iraq. The army general there said that techniques under the Army Field Manual are working and working effectively [i.e., no torture - nerdgirl], and he didn’t think they need to do anything else.

“My friends, this is what America is all about. This is a defining issue and, clearly, we should be able, if we want to be commander in chief of the U.S. Armed Forces, to take a definite and positive position on, and that is, we will never allow torture to take place in the United States of America.”

That would fall under one of those “reasons people love America” – we don’t lower the bar, in the past and in the future, America should in establish and maintain the bar. Because someone else does something does not make it “right” or effective. The US should not try to emulate China, Somalia, Iran, Saudi Arabia, Nigeria, Sudan, or any other nation that employs torture.

In the 1990s, Israel legalized torture. In 1999 Israel’s Supreme Court forbid torture largely because it was not found to be effective and more insidiously what was intended as an extraordinary interrogation method became widespread and routine, and all attempts to put real limits on it failed. Rather than a tool of last resort, in too many situations it was invoked at the first sign of frustration.

That experience is hardly unique to Israel; they were just more forthcoming in addressing it. Similar patterns have been observed in other states that employ torture or have employed torture in the past as part interogation.

Another problem with torture and interrogation is that when the two are combined they harm the credibility of the law enforcement agents conducting the interrogation if one wants to pursue legal prosecution.


Notably (or perhaps more ironically), who have been the most vocal non-governmental claimants of the effectiveness of torture?

UC Berkeley Law Professor John Yo, who is the former DOJ official/appointee who was largely responsible for the now-infamous memo that asserted common Article 3 of Geneva does not apply to either al Qa’eda or Taliban detainees.

&

Harvard Law School Professor Alan Dershowitz.

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Do you honestly think that if we treated out terrorist enemies with kid gloves that they would return the favor?

No one has made that argument, so it’s something of a red herring. Altho’ based on the experience cited above there may be a credible case for treating enemy combatants and prisoners in that manner.

Effective interrogation tactics do not involve torture, please refer to Army FM 2-22.3 or explain why the US Army, the Intelligence Science Board, and all of those other scholars I cited are wrong.

Under the notional scenario you posited, I would want the most effective interrogation method used, i.e., *not* torture. Traditional interrogation methods have been shown to work under extreme circumstances, e.g., the real-world “ticking time bomb scenario”:

“[Jack] Cloonan [32-year FBI veteran, whose experience included counterintelligence, counterterrorism, the Joint Terrorism Task Force] and a New York Police Department detective secured actionable intelligence from a suspect in the foiled millennium-bombing plot in just six hours on December 30, 1999 -- by following FBI procedure, and by encouraging a suspect to pray during his Ramadan fast. The suspect even agreed to place calls to his confederates, which led to their speedy arrests.”

Torture is not a policy that any nation should employ.

VR/Marg

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Act as if everything you do matters, while laughing at yourself for thinking anything you do matters.
Tibetan Buddhist saying

[nerdgirl 0]

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I disagree it will be effective in reaching "those folks". It looks like a scene in a movie many people would watch as entertainment.

Thanks for the feedback on the AI video. I think you got to the origin of my mixed response: with the flowing water intro, the music/sound effects, and the slick music video production quality, it made waterboarding seem Hollywood-like. Like a seen from the next Tom Cruise flick or 24.

When something becomes "Hollywood"-ified, it can lose its sense of reality and impact. Does the video risk unintentionally lessoning the associated atrocity?

VR/Marg

...

Act as if everything you do matters, while laughing at yourself for thinking anything you do matters.
Tibetan Buddhist saying

[nerdgirl 0]

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Until we take our prisoners...kill them, drag their bodies through the streets, hang them from bridges or lamp posts and burn them, nobody has any reason to worry about what we do. Frankly....adopting a "no prisoners" policy, would solve the whole problem.

That strategy may have been implementable in a traditional military action. In the type of asymmetric warfare and counterinsurgency (COIN) operations that characterize OIF & OEF, that would be highly counterproductive as the conflict is in an urban setting and differentiating combatants from non-combatants is frequently difficult to impossible. See the experience of the French in Algeria.

VR/Marg

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Act as if everything you do matters, while laughing at yourself for thinking anything you do matters.
Tibetan Buddhist saying

[kschilk 0]

War is war, it's all about attrition and everyone should be considered a combatant. The idea is to break all the enemy's stuff, including their people....nobody wins, by playing nice. Taking prisoners and treating them well, has never been relevant to how our POWs are treated by the enemy and the idea of "pacification", has never worked. It sounds harsh and it's unfortunate that it has to be that way but war has evolved and so must the tactics. Wars are more about genocide, than territory anymore...at least, as far as the intent of our enemies. Response should be totally in-kind, at least....you won't last long, throwing cotton balls at a charging rhino.

"T'was ever thus."

[LouDiamond 1]

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by retired US intelligence community member and US Navy officer Malcolm Nance (former SERE instructor)

I put Chief nance through an AT instructor course and audited a course he was trying to have implemented for the Navy several years back that was eventually scrapped after a few classes. Lets just say I am not surprised to see him making the statements that he made in the CNN video commentary. Some people will say anything to get back in the lime light

"It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required"
Some people dream about flying, I live my dream
SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING

[aresye 0]

I'm in the Navy, and a buddy in my class had to go through SERE school. He got waterboarded, and most likely I will too when I go.

If they can waterboard us, and beat the living crap out of us for training, well..let's just say I have no sympathy whatsoever if a prisoner that wants to cut my head off with a saw gets waterboarded too.

Skydiving: You either learn from other's mistakes, or they'll learn from yours.

[shropshire 0]

>>

Or after being helped to breath water
(actually both would be torture for me)

(.)Y(.)
Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome

[jakee 1,596]

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As I see it, there isn't really anyone, who has had nothing to do with the war. If you paid your taxes in the US, you supported the US in the war by helping to finance it.

Oh, ok then - so it's fair play to torture innocent people, because their taxes paid for their torture?

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As for prisoner treatment....why should we not do to their's, what they do to ours?

Because what they do is wrong.

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There is really no such thing as "innocent civilians", in war.

So 9-11 was a strike against legitimate targets?

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Maybe you should pose your question to the family of one of our civilian contractors, truck drivers or journalists, who was kidnapped, tortured and beheaded!?

What question, and why? According to you, their torture and beheading was surely a legitimate tactic?

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[kallend 2,150]

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I'm in the Navy, and a buddy in my class had to go through SERE school. He got waterboarded, and most likely I will too when I go.

If they can waterboard us, and beat the living crap out of us for training, well..let's just say I have no sympathy whatsoever if a prisoner that wants to cut my head off with a saw gets waterboarded too.

If we are prepared to be as evil as our enemies, why are we claiming moral superiority in the first place?

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[PLFXpert 0]

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When something becomes "Hollywood"-ified, it can lose its sense of reality and impact. Does the video risk unintentionally lessoning the associated atrocity?

I don't think so. The people who were against waterboarding before viewing the ad will not likely be desensitized by the Hollywood-like effects. It's just ineffective (imo) as the intended audience will just go on eating their popcorn, as you said.

Paint me in a corner, but my color comes back.

[kschilk 0]

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Oh, ok then - so it's fair play to torture innocent people, because their taxes paid for their torture?
?

Yes, it is....especially because my taxes are paying for it and I expect my money's worth. Like I said...if they're there, they're guilty of supporting terrorism.

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So 9-11 was a strike against legitimate targets?

Obviously, a bit before your time but for those of us that can recall it....it was an attack against our civilian population, using civilian aircraft which were filled with civilians and there was no declaration of war. Unfortunately, we responded with military force against military targets....it was nothing even remotely comparable to a "response in-kind", as it should have been.

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What question, and why? According to you, their torture and beheading was surely a legitimate tactic?

They view it as legitimate, so why shouldn't we?!

You need to understand the nature of the enemy. Despite their claims, there actions prove that these are a Godless bunch...absolutely without morals, honor, any shred of decency and with no respect for life or this planet. They have contributed absolutely nothing to this world, except filth, disease and death. They've had thousands of years head-start on the rest of the world, as far as civilization goes and yet, they failed to progress beyond B.C. All that they do have, has been given to them by or was stolen by them from, western civilizations.

These people want it all...everything that western civilization has but they are in no way, willing to work for it. I've been around for a while and can remember back to before the six-days war. In all the film footage and photos I've ever seen from most any middle east country, there is one undeniable similarity...you never see anyone working. You'll see them sitting on steps, walking the streets and occasionally protesting but as for actual, productive activity....it just isn't gonna' happen. They are nothing but leeches and are entitled only, to be treated as such.

"T'was ever thus."

[jakee 1,596]

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Yes, it is....especially because my taxes are paying for it and I expect my money's worth. Like I said...if they're there, they're guilty of supporting terrorism.

But it's not just people who are there, it's people who are here as well - people who have had zero connection with the war other than paying their taxes. You're saying it's OK to torture them because they're paying for their own mistreatment?

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Obviously, a bit before your time but for those of us that can recall it....it was an attack against our civilian population, using civilian aircraft which were filled with civilians and there was no declaration of war.

But you've just said that's ok. Osama bin Laden and his fellows have considered themselves to be at war with the US for some time before 9-11, so surely, according to your logic, the people in the towers were valid targets?

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They view it as legitimate, so why shouldn't we?!

Well, I don't view it as legitimate because I'm not a raving lunatic religious fundamentalist terrorist bastard. Why the fuck do you want to follow their lead?

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You need to understand the nature of the enemy. Despite their claims, there actions prove that these are a Godless bunch...absolutely without morals, honor, any shred of decency and with no respect for life or this planet. They have contributed absolutely nothing to this world, except filth, disease and death. They've had thousands of years head-start on the rest of the world, as far as civilization goes and yet, they failed to progress beyond B.C. All that they do have, has been given to them by or was stolen by them from, western civilizations.

These people want it all...everything that western civilization has but they are in no way, willing to work for it. I've been around for a while and can remember back to before the six-days war. In all the film footage and photos I've ever seen from most any middle east country, there is one undeniable similarity...you never see anyone working. You'll see them sitting on steps, walking the streets and occasionally protesting but as for actual, productive activity....it just isn't gonna' happen. They are nothing but leeches and are entitled only, to be treated as such.

Never opened a history book, have you?

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[AWL71 0]

Thanks for your response. If traditional interrogation methods are working then that is all that should be used. But if "torture" is needed in a rare circumstance for the greater good then so be it. Like another poster said-War is not moral or pretty and it is about winning the battle, not winning the court of feelgood public opinion.

We are able to sleep in our beds peacefully at night because our military and others take care of the dirty work. If this were not the case we would not have the quality of life we have now.

The most terrifying words in the English language are: I'm from the government and I'm here to help.

[kallend 2,150]

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Thanks for your response. If traditional interrogation methods are working then that is all that should be used. But if "torture" is needed in a rare circumstance for the greater good then so be it. Like another poster said-War is not moral or pretty and it is about winning the battle, not winning the court of feelgood public opinion.

We are able to sleep in our beds peacefully at night because our military and others take care of the dirty work. If this were not the case we would not have the quality of life we have now.

So it was OK for the Japanese and the Koreans and the N. Vietnamese to torture American troops during WWII, the Korean War, etc., using the same justification that you use.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[jcd11235 0]

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I don't think so. The people who were against waterboarding before viewing the ad will not likely be desensitized by the Hollywood-like effects. It's just ineffective (imo) as the intended audience will just go on eating their popcorn, as you said.

I was against it before viewing the ad, but felt the Hollywood feel of the ad detracted from the seriousness of the offense, made it less real.

Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials!

[jcd11235 0]

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Oh, ok then - so it's fair play to torture innocent people, because their taxes paid for their torture?
?

Yes, it is....especially because my taxes are paying for it and I expect my money's worth. Like I said...if they're there, they're guilty of supporting terrorism.

So, by your logic, US civilians are now legitimate targets, since our tax dollars pay for our military operations.

I'm quite thankful that you're not a general.

Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials!

[AWL71 0]

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Thanks for your response. If traditional interrogation methods are working then that is all that should be used. But if "torture" is needed in a rare circumstance for the greater good then so be it. Like another poster said-War is not moral or pretty and it is about winning the battle, not winning the court of feelgood public opinion.

We are able to sleep in our beds peacefully at night because our military and others take care of the dirty work. If this were not the case we would not have the quality of life we have now.

So it was OK for the Japanese and the Koreans and the N. Vietnamese to torture American troops during WWII, the Korean War, etc., using the same justification that you use.

Uh, No. I never said that. But you love to put words in people's mouth. The Japanese tortured our troops in WWII for the hell of it. If we need "torture/interrogate" an enemy for the greater good then so be it. It is War. You can't wrap it and put it in a little pretty package. We all live a life of comfort and ease thanks to our soldiers and others taking care of the dirty work.

The most terrifying words in the English language are: I'm from the government and I'm here to help.

[jakee 1,596]

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If traditional interrogation methods are working then that is all that should be used. But if "torture" is needed in a rare circumstance for the greater good then so be it.

Why would it be needed? Did you skip over the parts of Marg's post which show that torture is much less effective than other methods of interrogation? Why would you want to use an inneffective method of gathering information in scenarios where the most is at stake?

Like McCain said, this isn't Jack Bauer-land.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[Channman 2]

> We did not torture the Japanese.

But we did us fire to burn them out of their defensive positions.