Amnesty International’s Ad Against Waterboarding

[nerdgirl 0]

Amnesty International has produced a video, purportedly for use in movie theaters, showing a waterboarding as part of its campaign against torture.

Parts of the ad can be viewed here along with commentary by the AI campaign coordinator, by retired US intelligence community member and US Navy officer Malcolm Nance (former SERE instructor), by an ex-Guantanamo detainee who reported being waterboarded by representatives of the CIA in Afghanistan, and by a legal scholar (aka an academic, & not John Yoo) who supports the policies of the current US administration.

I am unilaterally opposed to torture. Have stated so previously & repeatedly. It’s not effective, it endangers US & allie uniformed service members with the risk of reciprocal treatment (or as GEN Colin Powell (ret) wrote in a letter to Sen McCain on redefining Common Article 3 of the Geneva Conventions: weakening prohibitions on torture “put our own troops at risk”), it's counterproductive w/r/t pursuit of US foreign policy goals, and it is wrong normatively.

Full version of the 1 ½ min advertisement here. It’s high production - has a music video 'feel' initially. My initial reactions/response to the advertisement are mixed. I’m clearly not the audience, however, to whom the advertisement is directed. I suspect it may be very effective in reaching those folks. It will also annoy, to put it diplomatically, some folks. Others will just chomp on popcorn and not care.

VR/Marg

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Act as if everything you do matters, while laughing at yourself for thinking anything you do matters.
Tibetan Buddhist saying

[kelpdiver 2]

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Amnesty International has produced a video, purportedly for use in movie theaters, showing a waterboarding as part of its campaign against torture.
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I’m clearly not the audience, however, to whom the advertisement is directed. I suspect it may be very effective in reaching those folks. It will also annoy, to put it diplomatically, some folks. Others will just chomp on popcorn and not care.

VR/Marg

But the only theaters that would play this ad are the ones with people who already are on board with the general message, if not interested enough to support it with actions or dollars.

I don't see the AMC or Century City chains putting this on 5000 screens across the country. I don't think I've ever seen anything that is so critical of our government or political in general in those pre movie bits.

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As an organization, I think AA lost much of its influence in the US from its opposition to the death penalty. Our society generally supports capital punishment, but could be influenced on the other rights violations that AA tries to fight. But probably not by them anymore.

Same problem with Greenpeace lumping together sea environment issues (whales, fishing) with a total war against anything nuclear. I'll never support them.

[AWL71 0]

You state "torture" is not effective. How do you know this? Because some scholar behind a desk says so? I am sure the CIA, among others, have gotten valuable information from what you deem torture. What is happening is not torture but coercion. And it is happening to only those few who we believe have knowledge of impending terrorist strikes against our cities and population or know of others who are formulating such plans. Unlike what is happening in the Islamic and Palestinian world, we Americans do not torture for sheer barbaric enjoyment, or as a means of revenge, nor even as a way of frightening foes. We employ momentary and isolated acts of physical or psychological coercion for the exclusive purpose of eliciting information we are convinced will save lives, thousands of lives.

Do you honestly think that if we treated out terrorist enemies with kid gloves that they would return the favor? You have to fight fire with fire. That may be against your "worldview" but we are fighting a determined enemy that does not play by the rules.

The most terrifying words in the English language are: I'm from the government and I'm here to help.

[kelpdiver 2]

When did Colin Powell become a scholar behind a desk?

[lawrocket 3]

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You state "torture" is not effective. How do you know this?

Simple logic. Andthe fact that the lack of reliability has been one of the reasons why we have not tortured in the past. People will confess to anything if the pain - or threat of it - is sufficient.

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am sure the CIA, among others, have gotten valuable information from what you deem torture.

Yes. Probably. And they've probably wasted a lot of time and caused needless pain for a lot of invaluable and just plain wrong information from torture.

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What is happening is not torture but coercion.

So they "coerce" the info out of people? That's nice, then.

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And it is happening to only those few who we believe have knowledge of impending terrorist strikes against our cities and population or know of others who are formulating such plans.

Did we coerce this info out of the sources? IOf captured and threatened that I will be forced to watch a marathon of thirtysomething, you can bet that said coercion will leave me with no choice but o implicate you in some plot, real or imagined.

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Unlike what is happening in the Islamic and Palestinian world, we Americans do not torture for sheer barbaric enjoyment

Oh, they get information, too.

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We employ momentary and isolated acts of physical or psychological coercion for the exclusive purpose of eliciting information we are convinced will save lives, thousands of lives.

Isn't that why Charlie used torture? To save thousands of lives of innocent Vietnamese from american imperial aggressors?

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Do you honestly think that if we treated out terrorist enemies with kid gloves that they would return the favor?

I believe they might. I also know that if we treat them barbarically, they WILL return the favor.

When the enemy knows that they will be treated humanely, they do not fight so hard. Check out Gulf 1 for examples.

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You have to fight fire with fire.

Or with water? (okay. Bad pun)

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That may be against your "worldview" but we are fighting a determined enemy that does not play by the rules.

Apparently, neither do we.

I don't give a shit WHAT the rest of the world is doing. We do things differently. That is the American way. We did not torture the Japanese. We did not torture Charlie Cong.

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[AWL71 0]

I was not referring to Colin Powell? I happen to disagree with Powell's opinion.

The most terrifying words in the English language are: I'm from the government and I'm here to help.

[kelpdiver 2]

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I was not referring to Colin Powell? I happen to disagree with Powell's opinion.

You asked Marg how she came to believe torture is not effective. His lack of endorsement was specifically mentioned in her posting as one reason.

So how are you more qualified on the subject than he? You can't just dismiss it as "well, I don't agree with him."

[AWL71 0]

Well I don't agree with him and I am at a disadvantage in this arguement. It is very likely that we have gotten valuable intel from interogations that have saved American lives. But I won't be able to google this information and post it since it is classified. In this situation you have to view the greater good.

Think about this question? Your children have been kidnapped for weeks. The police know they have a conspirator in custody. Would you or would you not want the police to rough this guy up to get information so you could get your children back? Be honest. No PC crap answers.

The most terrifying words in the English language are: I'm from the government and I'm here to help.

[jakee 1,596]

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I am sure the CIA, among others, have gotten valuable information from what you deem torture.

Oh, well if you're sure For the moment, I'll go with the report of the Intelligence Science Board who seem pretty damn sure that torture does not work.

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What is happening is not torture but coercion.

So the intentional infliction of pain is no longer torture? When did that happen?

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And it is happening to only those few who we believe have knowledge of...

Oh ok, so we can do it to people we think are bad? What about people arrested for armed robbery, or murder suspects - can we torture them too? oh, and what about when we're wrong?

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Do you honestly think that if we treated out terrorist enemies with kid gloves that they would return the favor?

No. So what? Some people are intelligent enough to have advanced their concepts of morality beyond "Stuff you do so other people will be nice to you".

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[AWL71 0]

You don't have a clue how the real world works. You enjoy your view from your high horse in "LaLa" land.

The most terrifying words in the English language are: I'm from the government and I'm here to help.

[billvon 3,120]

>It is very likely that we have gotten valuable intel from interogations
>that have saved American lives.

Yep. There are several scenarios you could make up. If you set up a contrived situation where you tortured a 12 year old girl in sight of her father, and then threatened to do the same with his other daughter, he might crack and tell you anything. (Not the truth, of course, just anything to make you stop.) It might, by coincidence, save american lives.

Would you be willing to torture that 12 year old? Say, just hold her under water for a few minutes? (or some other method that likely would not kill her.) If not, why not?

[Royd 0]

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I suspect it may be very effective in reaching those folks. It will also annoy, to put it diplomatically, some folks. Others will just chomp on popcorn and not care.

Once the thing is over and they don't see Jack Bauer, they'll wonder WTF.

[PLFXpert 0]

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to whom the advertisement is directed. I suspect it may be very effective in reaching those folks. It will also annoy, to put it diplomatically, some folks. Others will just chomp on popcorn and not care.

I'm not exactly the audience either, but closer to than you.

I disagree it will be effective in reaching "those folks". It looks like a scene in a movie many people would watch as entertainment.

It's not the "in" so-to-speak. At least that's what I call it. The "in" is the weak spot in an adversary (not necessarily in their argument). Simply showing them a waterboarding is not an "in". You have to find what the intended audience is sensitive toward and hit them there (in a relatable way that asserts your point).

Paint me in a corner, but my color comes back.

[jakee 1,596]

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You don't have a clue how the real world works. You enjoy your view from your high horse in "LaLa" land.

Oh thats a great argument - I'm convinced!

Your skillful use of fact based logical arguments cannot fail to win over anyone who reads them. Oh, wait...

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[kschilk 0]

Until we take our prisoners...kill them, drag their bodies through the streets, hang them from bridges or lamp posts and burn them, nobody has any reason to worry about what we do. Frankly....adopting a "no prisoners" policy, would solve the whole problem.

"T'was ever thus."

[jakee 1,596]

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Until we take our prisoners...kill them, drag their bodies through the streets, hang them from bridges or lamp posts and burn them, nobody has any reason to worry about what we do. Frankly....adopting a "no prisoners" policy, would solve the whole problem.

Ah, so as long as we don't do anything quite as bad as our oponents, then we're just fine!

So during WW2, if we'd put captured German soldiers in Gas chambers, but hadn't made soap out of them, would that have been OK? If the government took away all your civil liberties and your vote, but allowed you to access uncencored internet, would that be OK? After all, it wouldn't be as bad as China.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[kallend 2,150]

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You don't have a clue how the real world works. You enjoy your view from your high horse in "LaLa" land.

I always love these comments from people who apparently know all about "the real world". Great debating technique.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[likearock 2]

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You state "torture" is not effective. How do you know this?

Simple logic. Andthe fact that the lack of reliability has been one of the reasons why we have not tortured in the past. People will confess to anything if the pain - or threat of it - is sufficient.

You know, although I am personally opposed to torture, I never agreed with the "ineffective" argument. The fact that people will confess to "anything" leads logically to the fact that they'll confess to something truthful if they happen to know it. Especially in a circumstance where their confession can be confirmed and the torture repeated if it was false.

I agree that there would be plenty of false confessions as well. That and the fact that I don't want to give our enemies justification to torture us lead to my opposition. But in an event where you absolutely have to know (for example) the location of a ticking bomb, torture could elicit that information.

[jakee 1,596]

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You know, although I am personally opposed to torture, I never agreed with the "ineffective" argument. The fact that people will confess to "anything" leads logically to the fact that they'll confess to something truthful if they happen to know it.

Have a look at the document I linked to above.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[kelpdiver 2]

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Think about this question? Your children have been kidnapped for weeks. The police know they have a conspirator in custody. Would you or would you not want the police to rough this guy up to get information so you could get your children back? Be honest. No PC crap answers.

The fallacy here is that the police *know* they have a conspirator. What if they're wrong? They spend how long torturing the guy to get a false lead and follow it?

Your analogy fails to fit the subject at hand wrt retribution. We want our soldiers to be treated per conventions. So far, not happening in the ME, but if we declare no intention of following protocols when we like, no one else will either.

Closest child analogy I got is the interest in increasing the penalty for sexual offenders to life or death. If there's no additional penalty for killing the child, and less risk that the dead child can identify you in court, what is Chester going to do? So have you improved the safety picture any?

[lawrocket 3]

The document jakee provided was great. it had some things in there about reliability bbeing questioned during the Inquisition.

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And thus coerced they
say that what is false is true, choosing to die once rather than
to endure more torture. As a result of these false and coerced
confessions not only do those making confessions perish, but
so do the innocent people named by them…. [M]any of those
who are newly cited to appear [before the inquisitors], hearing
of the torments and trials of those who are detained…assert that
what is false is true; in which assertions they accuse not only
themselves but other innocent people, that they may avoid the
above mentioned pains…. Those who thus confess afterward
reveal to their close friends that those things that they said to the
inquisitors are not true, but rather false, and they confessed out
of imminent danger.

In order for it to be effective, you gotta find someone who truly knows the answer. If the vitctim does not you have wasted time with shoddy intelligence.

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[PLFXpert 0]

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I think AA lost much of its influence in the US from its opposition to the death penalty. Our society generally supports capital punishment, but could be influenced on the other rights violations that AA tries to fight. But probably not by them anymore.

Same problem with Greenpeace lumping together sea environment issues (whales, fishing) with a total war against anything nuclear. I'll never support them.

Exactly. I stop short, however, of "never supporting them".

It's like anything else.

A perfect anything--especially an organization--is tough to find.

I find supporting the ones I agree with on an often enough basis gains me somewhat more of an influence on them to make changes in such areas I disagree with.

Paint me in a corner, but my color comes back.

[jcd11235 0]

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Would you or would you not want the police to rough this guy up to get information so you could get your children back?

Most parents would, which is why they would not be involved in the interrogation.

Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials!

[jakee 1,596]

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In order for it to be effective, you gotta find someone who truly knows the answer.

Well, for a start, yes - but torturing someone who does know the answer does not guarantee they'll give you accurate info either, or limit what they will tell you to only accurate info. Far from it.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[lawrocket 3]

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In order for it to be effective, you gotta find someone who truly knows the answer.

Well, for a start, yes - but torturing someone who does know the answer does not guarantee they'll give you accurate info either, or limit what they will tell you to only accurate info. Far from it.

Exactly.

My wife is hotter than your wife.