Question for LDS people...

[DSE 5]

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In the eyes of the state, if Mr. Green had just married the first one legally, and had a church marriage only with the other four, in the eyes of the state, he'd have been married to one woman and happened to have four others in his house.

Tell that to David Leavitt. Or Mark Shurtleff. Or for that matter, to Rulon Allred, Ervil LeBaron, Martin Pingree....The first two have prosecuted polygamy at the fundamental level, the others are polygs that were prosecuted. They all publically refer to the women with whom they've had "spiritual marriages" as their "wives." With or without paperwork.
IIRC, Green had no "church," licensed, nor state-aware marriage to wives four and five, yet they were included in the counts of bigamy.
I'm not a lawyer, so the intricacies of arguing what is what are the specifics are beyond what I know. It's a subject I have fun with, however. Our attorney general has a passion for skydiving, and one of our regular skydivers is a son of a large polyg family.
Our old DZ is right in the middle of a very large group of polys (Cedar Valley, Utah).

[rynodigsmusic 0]

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... polygamy sounds pretty rad ...

When I read this I picture an old person trying to relate to children ... Totally rad!

PS: Polygamy sounds more like hell than heaven to me.

That is too funny!! Sorry, I just thought rad would sound cool there, I hadnt used that word in a while!! Im 29 yrs old, and I absolutley love your last comment!!!!!!!!!!!!

"We didn't start the fire"

[rynodigsmusic 0]

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Sorry to come in and drop off, but I wont be able to respond for a couple of days. The spirit says that if one aint good enough sis, then two definitely wont be better! I know polygamy sounds pretty rad, Ill take 12 please, but spiritualy it challenges the desire for true content... Grace and peace

Just curious, as far as I know, the Bible does not outlaw polygamy. And looking at the old testament, there were several men who had more than one wife. Do you have a passage that says that polygamy is not allowed?

Your right, the bible does not outlaw polygamy, especially in the old testament. But her question led me to believe that she was trying to find the path to godliness, which has nothing to with the number of wives you have.

See, this was the problem with Israel when Jesus came. The Jews at that time were very traditionalized. They felt that because they were doing all things that the law said, that they were holy, and many religions still believe this to this day. Oppression is very powerful. I am in the middle east right now and you see opression all over islam. You can only see the eyes of women, the men are over there women, some feel it necessary to constantly belittle them, or inferiorize them. Again, it is very powerful, because opression works on fear, shame, guilt, ect...Basically you force someone to do something becasue it is Godly.

Now the argument is that some of these women want to live this way, if that is the case great, but what Jesus said is that it doesnt bring the kingdom of heaven to your heart. He showed us that "doing" certain things was not the way to the spirit, but that truth and grace was. So, the new testament enjoyed "freedoms" (that they spoke of regularlary) because the truth said that we are all evil, even those who appear to be the most righteous, putting the truth in our hearts and exposing the hypocrites who were opressing others for their own gain and using these traditions to empower thier control over them. One of Jesus' most powerful testimonys was that there is only one who is good, and he is in heaven.... I could write forever on this, but the truth is that the spirit of grace nullified our traditions. Meaning you dont believe just because you do certain things......

Sorry about the length, but there is more to your question than you think. Polygamy goes against the spirit. Not to say that you cant be spiritual and have many wives, but Jesus showed if you cant be happy with none, then you cant be happy with one or more. If you are married and you love your spouse, it is a blessing, but it is not always easy. Paul said that "I wish all of you were like me (single)" because he goes on to say that those who are married will go through difficult times and I want to save you from that".....

But let me be very clear, Jesus said "If you can accept not being married, you should" If anyone tells you marriage is against the spirit they are wrong. Polygamy is allowed but it goes against the spirit. Do you need me to give you the references?

"We didn't start the fire"

[rynodigsmusic 0]

Um...thanks for your input, I guess, but you didn't address the question I asked. Can we keep this thread on topic? I'm not LDS, I'm just trying to understand someone else's perspective, so I'm looking for input from people who are LDS. In the meantime, you might enjoy these threads about Christianity:

I am sorry, I just thought you should also have a perspective from someone who follows Jesus, as it is Jesus that the LDS church has their foundation on. I have had many people come up to me and ask similar questions about LDS. They have many traditions that confuse people who are trying to find power in the spirit, they lay burdens on the conscience that are not only unecessary, they are not based on the Gospel, in fact, some of them go against the Gospel. What I said to you, I really said to all, again I am so sorry if I offended you or made you angry.

"We didn't start the fire"

[Nightingale 0]

Offended or angry, no. Annoyed, yes, but only because you kept calling me "sister." I just didn't want this thread to degenerate into the usual Christianity debate, because I'm getting really sick of reading the same thing a million times.

[rynodigsmusic 0]

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Offended or angry, no. Annoyed, yes, but only because you kept calling me "sister." I just didn't want this thread to degenerate into the usual Christianity debate, because I'm getting really sick of reading the same thing a million times.

I should have used the word annoyed....thats the one I was looking for, again, sorry. Ive been in these athiest threads for the past week, were having alot of fun in there!! And Im sorry for calling you sister....I hope your question got answered, looks like you generated what you were looking for. take care.

"We didn't start the fire"

[Nightingale 0]

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Offended or angry, no. Annoyed, yes, but only because you kept calling me "sister." I just didn't want this thread to degenerate into the usual Christianity debate, because I'm getting really sick of reading the same thing a million times.

I should have used the word annoyed....thats the one I was looking for, again, sorry. Ive been in these athiest threads for the past week, were having alot of fun in there!! And Im sorry for calling you sister....I hope your question got answered, looks like you generated what you were looking for. take care.

Yes, I did get the answer I was looking for, and had a couple of great discussions with LDS folks via PM. Thanks for everyone's contribution!

[kelpdiver 2]

Somehow I don't think you're a fan of South Park.

[thirdworld19 0]

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Polygamy goes against the spirit. Not to say that you cant be spiritual and have many wives, but Jesus showed if you cant be happy with none, then you cant be happy with one or more. If you are married and you love your spouse, it is a blessing, but it is not always easy. Paul said that "I wish all of you were like me (single)" because he goes on to say that those who are married will go through difficult times and I want to save you from that".....

But let me be very clear, Jesus said "If you can accept not being married, you should" If anyone tells you marriage is against the spirit they are wrong. Polygamy is allowed but it goes against the spirit. Do you need me to give you the references?

Yes, would you please supply the references for the above. Thanks. Would there also be a passage for polygamy being "against the spirit?"

[cloudseeker2001 0]

PS: Polygamy sounds more like hell than heaven to me.

I have spent some time Idaho and I have seen families with three wifes and four or five children at places such as Wal-mart or the grocery store and I have no idea how the man can handle it or afford it! Yea, I think it would be hell too!

"Some call it heavenly in it's brilliance,
others mean and rueful of the western dream"

[Shotgun 1]

Yeah, I don't think I could deal with having multiple husbands.

So I'll just stick with having one husband and multiple boyfriends.

[rynodigsmusic 0]

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Polygamy goes against the spirit. Not to say that you cant be spiritual and have many wives, but Jesus showed if you cant be happy with none, then you cant be happy with one or more. If you are married and you love your spouse, it is a blessing, but it is not always easy. Paul said that "I wish all of you were like me (single)" because he goes on to say that those who are married will go through difficult times and I want to save you from that".....

But let me be very clear, Jesus said "If you can accept not being married, you should" If anyone tells you marriage is against the spirit they are wrong. Polygamy is allowed but it goes against the spirit. Do you need me to give you the references?

Yes, would you please supply the references for the above. Thanks. Would there also be a passage for polygamy being "against the spirit?"

The spirit called us to leave everything to find it. You can interperet for yourself what that means, but in my walk, it meant that in my heart I had to see everything here as an illusion in a way, I had to accept that everything I love, everything I have, everything I want even, was already gone. For me at least, this meant absolute freedom. Seeing everything I have as a blessing fills the heart with gratitude, and gratitude is in the flow of the spirit...it just feels good to be thankful doesnt it? When someone finds the spirit, they learn to be happy and content with little to nothing (by no means am I there yet freind)

What I have found is that the more we say we dont need, the more we begin to actually recieve. So you receive everything you have as gifts, therefore naturally putting God first, which is what Jesus was saying. (Matt 6:25-34) It all has to do with worry, Jesus said, "Do not worry about tomorrow, tomorrow will take care of itself, each day has enough trouble of its own"

So, you see the spirit is freeing us from all the troubles and worrys of the world, not by taking us out of the world, but by taking our hearts out of the world. The number of wives you have is a worldly tradition, it doesnt matter to the spirit, therefore it is not in the flow. Love, Hope, Faith, Joy, Compassion, Mercy, Grace, Content, Peace...these are in the flow. Many people see these words and they lack power becasue of our lack of faith (Jesus wept over our lack of faith), but indeed, it is undeniable that they all feel good to us.

Love is the greatest, but love is only recieved by us when we believe and trust. We never knew truly how much God loved us until Jesus died on the cross to show us. It is that love that is the spirit, that is the depth we are all longing for, It is God saying I know you and I want you still....this much. That is the flow. Jesus said if you love anything more than that (me), then youre not worthy of me.

He wasnt saying dont love your family and freinds, quite the opposite, he was saying I have the greatest love...the love of the Father, find this, keep this first, and the love you have for everyone else will stem from that. This vine of love gives life to all those who believe and it is spreading across the earth. If it touches us, we find life, if it does not, we simply rely on what we have in this world, and everything in this world is vanishing and the deciever is trying to keep us from seeing the truth.

Jesus says "the two will become one flesh" He says 2 will become 1. Matt 19:5 and Mrk 10:8

Paul says that the Elders and Deacons (leaders who teach the spirit by example) are to have but one wife 1Tim3:2; 1Tim3:12; Eph 5:33

And again Jesus says that "those who can accept is should accept it" (not getting married) Matt 19:12

It seems to me, that there is much more in the new testament that is for monogamy than polygamy. But definitely it is completely a false statement to say that polygamy leads to holiness if they are followers of Jesus Christ. There is no scripture that says Polygamy is agains the spirit, but the spirit clearly testifies that it is.

Now I am curious as to what you think, after reading the scriptures ect...what does your heart tell you? Hope this helps.

"We didn't start the fire"

[cloudseeker2001 0]

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Yeah, I don't think I could deal with having multiple husbands.

So I'll just stick with having one husband and multiple boyfriends.

And one dead skull on the wall!

Kinda sounds like a country song!

"Some call it heavenly in it's brilliance,
others mean and rueful of the western dream"

[Shotgun 1]

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And one dead skull on the wall!

Actually, I have a lot of skulls on the wall(s).

[thirdworld19 0]

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Jesus says "the two will become one flesh" He says 2 will become 1. Matt 19:5 and Mrk 10:8

Paul says that the Elders and Deacons (leaders who teach the spirit by example) are to have but one wife 1Tim3:2; 1Tim3:12; Eph 5:33

And again Jesus says that "those who can accept is should accept it" (not getting married) Matt 19:12

It seems to me, that there is much more in the new testament that is for monogamy than polygamy. But definitely it is completely a false statement to say that polygamy leads to holiness if they are followers of Jesus Christ. There is no scripture that says Polygamy is agains the spirit, but the spirit clearly testifies that it is.

Now I am curious as to what you think, after reading the scriptures ect...what does your heart tell you? Hope this helps.

Reading the passages, here's what I got out of it:

The first two (Jesus) refer to divorce. When two people marry, they become one and therefore cannot be separated. Nothing that says a third can't join the original union. Just no divorce.

The next group refers to becoming a bishop/deacon. And if polygamy was frowned upon, why would there be a stipulation that a bishop/deacon could only have one wife (as opposed to what?). Seems to mean that having more than one wife was accepted, but that a bishop had other rules to follow. (Eph 5:33 is the same passage as the first 2).

And the last quote seems to me to be the opposite of what you are saying. I believe it is telling people that if you can accept marriage, go ahead and do so. But for those eunuchs, sorry you can't accept it - too bad for you. But everyone else who can, should.

There are many references to polygamy throughout the Bible - none of them outlawing the practice. Here are a couple:

Judges 8:30 (Gideon had 70 sons...for he had many wives)
1 Kings 3:1-2 (Solomon married the Pharaoh's daughter to ensure safety of the kingdom - not his 1st wife)
2 Chronicles 11:23 (Sought many wives for them)
1 Chronicles 14:3 (David took more wives)

[rynodigsmusic 0]

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I appreciate your response. Are you defending a polygamous marriage, or are you truly tying to understand? I only ask becasue everything that I gave you was correct, but it seems you found it out of context and are trying to make it say what you want it to. Im not being disrespectful, just making sure that you hear the truth, so if you ever talked to anyone else you would have an expressed opinion based on the truth.

As I said the old testament was for polygamy, and marriage has nothing to do with the spirit, whether 2 or 12 wives, in fact, Jesus said it was better not to marry. NIV quote...

"The disciples said to him, "If this is the situation between a husband and wife, it is better not to marry."

Jesus replied, "Not everyone can accept this word, but only those to whom it has been given. For some are eunuchs because they were born that way; others were made that way by men; and others have renounced marriage because of the kingdom of heaven. The one who can accept this should accept it."

You are right, it seemed that since there was a stipulation it shows that polygamy was still accepted, but not for those who were in charge of teaching the spirit, doesnt that say something to you?

Jesus' comment on divorce was not necessarily on divorce as much as it was on adultery. NIV quote...

Jesus replied, "Moses permitted you to divorce your wives because your hearts were hard. But it was not this way from the beginning. I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for marital unfaithfulness, and marries another woman commits adultery."

Jesus knew the heart of man, he knew that many were divorcing just to marry another, that is adultery. But to divorce was not spoken against as much as adultery was. The heart doesnt lie and the motives, thoughts and attitudes he knows (HEB4:12)

Read 1 Corin 7. Then write back. But understand that I have not said that it is wrong to have many wives, if you do, may Gods blessing rest upon you, but it should not be taught amongst any followers of Jesus that Polygamy is the way to righteousness, and as I said, everything in the New Testament goes against it. The spirit loves content, content says if you cant be happy with none, then you cant be happy with many. Do you agree with this?

"We didn't start the fire"

[cloudseeker2001 0]

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And one dead skull on the wall!

Actually, I have a lot of skulls on the wall(s).

"Some call it heavenly in it's brilliance,
others mean and rueful of the western dream"

[thirdworld19 0]

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I appreciate your response. Are you defending a polygamous marriage, or are you truly tying to understand? I only ask becasue everything that I gave you was correct, but it seems you found it out of context and are trying to make it say what you want it to. Im not being disrespectful, just making sure that you hear the truth, so if you ever talked to anyone else you would have an expressed opinion based on the truth.

Read 1 Corin 7. Then write back. But understand that I have not said that it is wrong to have many wives, if you do, may Gods blessing rest upon you, but it should not be taught amongst any followers of Jesus that Polygamy is the way to righteousness, and as I said, everything in the New Testament goes against it. The spirit loves content, content says if you cant be happy with none, then you cant be happy with many. Do you agree with this?

I have read the passages and much of each of the entire books they were in and I stand by what I believe them to say. I don't believe the Bible states anywhere that it is wrong to have multiple spouses. I wasn't putting forth my opinion about polygamy at all - still not. Just whether or not the Bible condemns it.

If God did not want people to have multiple spouses, it would have said so - kinda like the 10 commandments. There are many clear don'ts in the Bible, I just don't think this is one of them.

Perhaps you are agreeing with me - it's a bit difficult from your posting.

Re: the last quote about content, I would say that content has to come from inside you - it is a state of mind - an attitude you choose to have in life.

[rynodigsmusic 0]

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I appreciate your response. Are you defending a polygamous marriage, or are you truly tying to understand? I only ask becasue everything that I gave you was correct, but it seems you found it out of context and are trying to make it say what you want it to. Im not being disrespectful, just making sure that you hear the truth, so if you ever talked to anyone else you would have an expressed opinion based on the truth.

Read 1 Corin 7. Then write back. But understand that I have not said that it is wrong to have many wives, if you do, may Gods blessing rest upon you, but it should not be taught amongst any followers of Jesus that Polygamy is the way to righteousness, and as I said, everything in the New Testament goes against it. The spirit loves content, content says if you cant be happy with none, then you cant be happy with many. Do you agree with this?

I have read the passages and much of each of the entire books they were in and I stand by what I believe them to say. I don't believe the Bible states anywhere that it is wrong to have multiple spouses. I wasn't putting forth my opinion about polygamy at all - still not. Just whether or not the Bible condemns it.

If God did not want people to have multiple spouses, it would have said so - kinda like the 10 commandments. There are many clear don'ts in the Bible, I just don't think this is one of them.

Perhaps you are agreeing with me - it's a bit difficult from your posting.

Re: the last quote about content, I would say that content has to come from inside you - it is a state of mind - an attitude you choose to have in life.

I understand. Very good points!

"We didn't start the fire"