quade 4 #1 April 27, 2008 Expelled: No Intelligence Allowed Anybody see it yet? I just did and would be interested in discussing with those that have.quade - The World's Most Boring Skydiver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
auburnguy 0 #2 April 27, 2008 I'm extremely interested in what he has to say."If you don't like your job, you don't strike! You just go in every day, and do it really half assed. That's the American way." - Homer Simpson Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
quade 4 #3 April 27, 2008 Well, then, go see it so we can discuss!quade - The World's Most Boring Skydiver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
auburnguy 0 #4 April 27, 2008 Ok, saw it. Good over all, weather you agree with him or not he has some valid points. Some of the imagery may have been a bit over the top but he did a fairly good job getting his point across."If you don't like your job, you don't strike! You just go in every day, and do it really half assed. That's the American way." - Homer Simpson Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Everon 0 #5 April 27, 2008 I was actually going to see this until I saw a trailer where Stein is sitting in the back of what was clearly a biology classroom where a lecturer was discussing evolution. He repeatedly asks "how did it all begin?" in the most annoying way. Good grief - abiogenesis has absolutely nothing to do with evolutionary biology. You'd think someone involved with the film would know this. But then again these are the same people who cannot grasp the basics of the scientific method and thus realize ID has no business being taught in any science curricula. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
n23x 0 #6 April 27, 2008 QuoteGood over all, weather you agree with him or not he has some valid points... Such as? Just curious what you identify with. .jim"Don't touch my fucking Easter eggs, I'll be back monday." ~JTFC Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
auburnguy 0 #7 April 27, 2008 QuoteI was actually going to see this until I saw a trailer where Stein is sitting in the back of what was clearly a biology classroom where a lecturer was discussing evolution. He repeatedly asks "how did it all begin?" in the most annoying way. Good grief - abiogenesis has absolutely nothing to do with evolutionary biology. You'd think someone involved with the film would know this. But then again these are the same people who cannot grasp the basics of the scientific method and thus realize ID has no business being taught in any science curricula. Ben stein is not a stupid person, go see the movie with an open mind before you criticize. Don't talk out of your ass about the movie when you haven't even seen it. How it all began isn't a valid question?"If you don't like your job, you don't strike! You just go in every day, and do it really half assed. That's the American way." - Homer Simpson Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
auburnguy 0 #8 April 27, 2008 QuoteI was actually going to see this until I saw a trailer where Stein is sitting in the back of what was clearly a biology classroom where a lecturer was discussing evolution. He repeatedly asks "how did it all begin?" in the most annoying way. Good grief - abiogenesis has absolutely nothing to do with evolutionary biology. You'd think someone involved with the film would know this. But then again these are the same people who cannot grasp the basics of the scientific method and thus realize ID has no business being taught in any science curricula. He does not deny that evolution occurs (change over time). What he does question is that the proteins necessary to create the most basic form of life is statistically improbable, were talking trillions upon trillions to one. He also investigates how academics have not been allowed to investigate any type of answer to the origins of life beyond Darwinism. Many have been fired, had funding pulled, ostracized by their peers and called creationists for investigating anything but traditional Darwinism. I'm not taking sides as to which one is I think is right, not on here anyway. But I think it is outrageous that scientists have not been allowed to investigate potentially alternative explanations. I find it strange and frightening that many people, scientists and non scientists are so vicious in their attacks on researching alternatives to the origins of life. People should have the freedom to research it, and that is not being allowed in the modern day scientific world. It is necessary to explore all avenues to find the truth whatever it may be."If you don't like your job, you don't strike! You just go in every day, and do it really half assed. That's the American way." - Homer Simpson Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,146 #9 April 27, 2008 QuoteQuoteI was actually going to see this until I saw a trailer where Stein is sitting in the back of what was clearly a biology classroom where a lecturer was discussing evolution. He repeatedly asks "how did it all begin?" in the most annoying way. Good grief - abiogenesis has absolutely nothing to do with evolutionary biology. You'd think someone involved with the film would know this. But then again these are the same people who cannot grasp the basics of the scientific method and thus realize ID has no business being taught in any science curricula. He does not deny that evolution occurs (change over time). What he does question is that the proteins necessary to create the most basic form of life is statistically improbable, were talking trillions upon trillions to one. He also investigates how academics have not been allowed to investigate any type of answer to the origins of life beyond Darwinism. Many have been fired, had funding pulled, ostracized by their peers and called creationists for investigating anything but traditional Darwinism. Really? Can you name some genuine scientists to whom this has happened? Quote I'm not taking sides as to which one is I think is right, not on here anyway. But I think it is outrageous that scientists have not been allowed to investigate potentially alternative explanations. I find it strange and frightening that many people, scientists and non scientists are so vicious in their attacks on researching alternatives to the origins of life. People should have the freedom to research it, and that is not being allowed in the modern day scientific world. Really? Who is preventing it from happening?... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
quade 4 #10 April 27, 2008 QuoteGood over all, weather you agree with him or not he has some valid points. And some amazingly poor ones! He had interesting questions to ask, but never got to the real heart of the matter. Further, the documentary made a very LARGE use of historical footage, taken out of context so that frequently, when people would describe the scientists that take the evolutionary position, their words would be over shots of; Nazis, Communitsts, propaganda films . . . Stein actually visits Nazi concentration camps in an attempt to link Darwinism to the horrors of the Nazis. While there may in fact be a vague connection (Hitler did in fact bastardize the concept of Darwinism into a type of Social Darwinism), the director -may- have had certain points and may have actually been able to get them across to a wider audience had they not done that. Further, Stein frequently includes in the Intelligent Design concept the ideas of; morality, hope, freewill, freedom and the American way of life. THE central theme of the film is that there IS a huge Berlin type wall and that all ID is trying to do is "tear down that wall". Yes, this point and link to Reagan is directly made on screen time and time again with Ben Stein speaking with scenes of the wall and Ronald Reagan saying that famous phrase. I -wanted- to see a different side of the argument in the film. I really did, but they never got to the point of actually saying WHY ID made any sense. Actually, I think Stein has lost it.quade - The World's Most Boring Skydiver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
auburnguy 0 #11 April 28, 2008 QuoteQuoteQuoteI was actually going to see this until I saw a trailer where Stein is sitting in the back of what was clearly a biology classroom where a lecturer was discussing evolution. He repeatedly asks "how did it all begin?" in the most annoying way. Good grief - abiogenesis has absolutely nothing to do with evolutionary biology. You'd think someone involved with the film would know this. But then again these are the same people who cannot grasp the basics of the scientific method and thus realize ID has no business being taught in any science curricula. He does not deny that evolution occurs (change over time). What he does question is that the proteins necessary to create the most basic form of life is statistically improbable, were talking trillions upon trillions to one. He also investigates how academics have not been allowed to investigate any type of answer to the origins of life beyond Darwinism. Many have been fired, had funding pulled, ostracized by their peers and called creationists for investigating anything but traditional Darwinism. Really? Can you name some genuine scientists to whom this has happened? Quote I'm not taking sides as to which one is I think is right, not on here anyway. But I think it is outrageous that scientists have not been allowed to investigate potentially alternative explanations. I find it strange and frightening that many people, scientists and non scientists are so vicious in their attacks on researching alternatives to the origins of life. People should have the freedom to research it, and that is not being allowed in the modern day scientific world. Really? Who is preventing it from happening? Watch the movie!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Then discuss. Until then you are stabbing in the dark. I do agree that his imagery was over the top. But I think that as a Jew that imagery held a special significance to him."If you don't like your job, you don't strike! You just go in every day, and do it really half assed. That's the American way." - Homer Simpson Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,146 #12 April 28, 2008 QuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteI was actually going to see this until I saw a trailer where Stein is sitting in the back of what was clearly a biology classroom where a lecturer was discussing evolution. He repeatedly asks "how did it all begin?" in the most annoying way. Good grief - abiogenesis has absolutely nothing to do with evolutionary biology. You'd think someone involved with the film would know this. But then again these are the same people who cannot grasp the basics of the scientific method and thus realize ID has no business being taught in any science curricula. He does not deny that evolution occurs (change over time). What he does question is that the proteins necessary to create the most basic form of life is statistically improbable, were talking trillions upon trillions to one. He also investigates how academics have not been allowed to investigate any type of answer to the origins of life beyond Darwinism. Many have been fired, had funding pulled, ostracized by their peers and called creationists for investigating anything but traditional Darwinism. Really? Can you name some genuine scientists to whom this has happened? Quote I'm not taking sides as to which one is I think is right, not on here anyway. But I think it is outrageous that scientists have not been allowed to investigate potentially alternative explanations. I find it strange and frightening that many people, scientists and non scientists are so vicious in their attacks on researching alternatives to the origins of life. People should have the freedom to research it, and that is not being allowed in the modern day scientific world. Really? Who is preventing it from happening? Watch the movie!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Then discuss. Until then you are stabbing in the dark. . Who is stabbing? I asked a QUESTION. A movie is not evidence of anything. Please cite some genuine scientists who have been victimized in the way you claim.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
24fps 1 #13 April 28, 2008 "I -wanted- to see a different side of the argument in the film. I really did, but they never got to the point of actually saying WHY ID made any sense. " For the record, Expelled: No Intelligence Allowed is not playing here yet and I have yet to see it. I could be wrong but I thought that the point of the film was not to explain valid points of ID but to show that any other theories beyond Darwinism is discriminated against. That is what intrigues me most about this film. I hope to see it if/when it comes out here to the sticks.something funny and unique Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
quade 4 #14 April 28, 2008 QuoteI could be wrong but I thought that the point of the film was not to explain valid points of ID but to show that any other theories beyond Darwinism is discriminated against. That is what intrigues me most about this film But even that concept is disingenuous. The film portrays the idea that the people that want to talk about ID are being repressed and their freedom of expression is being taken away. That's simply not the case. People can and do talk about ID all the time. They even have colleges and buildings specifically set up for this purpose all across the country. NOBODY is stopping them. The verbiage they choose to use in the movie is also disingenuous. They choose to attack a general theory of evolution by trying to nail the name "Darwinism" on to it. They do this to put a face on it and make it the evil idea of one man. That's just silly. It's evolution. Much in the same way that electrical theory isn't called "Edisonism" or gravitational theory "Newtonism". It's such an insidious reworking of the language behind the concepts, even I had temporarily fallen into the trap (see my posting above). Change the language and control the debate. Very "1984" in the concept of "newspeak", which is, after all what ID is, in fact, all about. Quote That is what intrigues me most about this film. I hope to see it if/when it comes out here to the sticks. It's also one of the things that had intrigued me. Sadly, they failed miserably at actually making that case. At least in my mind. I do hope you get to see it. It's like a tribute to the styles of Michael Moore, but very much more badly and transparently done. (Yes, Lori I said I wasn't going to go there . . . but you were right, I had to.)quade - The World's Most Boring Skydiver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
auburnguy 0 #15 April 28, 2008 QuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteI was actually going to see this until I saw a trailer where Stein is sitting in the back of what was clearly a biology classroom where a lecturer was discussing evolution. He repeatedly asks "how did it all begin?" in the most annoying way. Good grief - abiogenesis has absolutely nothing to do with evolutionary biology. You'd think someone involved with the film would know this. But then again these are the same people who cannot grasp the basics of the scientific method and thus realize ID has no business being taught in any science curricula. He does not deny that evolution occurs (change over time). What he does question is that the proteins necessary to create the most basic form of life is statistically improbable, were talking trillions upon trillions to one. He also investigates how academics have not been allowed to investigate any type of answer to the origins of life beyond Darwinism. Many have been fired, had funding pulled, ostracized by their peers and called creationists for investigating anything but traditional Darwinism. Really? Can you name some genuine scientists to whom this has happened? Quote I'm not taking sides as to which one is I think is right, not on here anyway. But I think it is outrageous that scientists have not been allowed to investigate potentially alternative explanations. I find it strange and frightening that many people, scientists and non scientists are so vicious in their attacks on researching alternatives to the origins of life. People should have the freedom to research it, and that is not being allowed in the modern day scientific world. Really? Who is preventing it from happening? Watch the movie!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Then discuss. Until then you are stabbing in the dark. . Who is stabbing? I asked a QUESTION. A movie is not evidence of anything. Please cite some genuine scientists who have been victimized in the way you claim. Watch the movie and your question will be answered. I thought a major point was not that people cant do the research but rather that no one in the academic establishment will have anything to do with the research and go after the people studying it, (fire them, deny tenure). If you want the specific examples of people this has happened to WATCH THE FUCKING MOVIE!"If you don't like your job, you don't strike! You just go in every day, and do it really half assed. That's the American way." - Homer Simpson Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
quade 4 #16 April 28, 2008 QuoteI thought a major point was not that people cant do the research but rather that no one in the academic establishment will have anything to do with the research . . . I, on the other hand, see this as no different than the amount of grant money they'd receive or seriousness with which they'd be taken if they proposed doing research into perpetual motion machines. There is no law or anything of that nature that says a scientist can't do work on this topic, but if you come to ME asking ME for money to do research, it better be something -I'M- willing to pay for . . . so the whole grant thing in the movie is simply bogus. In fact, I KNOW there is at least one accredited university that not only allows discussion of ID, but it's actually taught there; Vanguard University in southern California. I'm certain there are others. Certainly the producers of the film knew ID was taught there. It is, after all in their own backyard and is well known in the evangelical community. Exactly how "honest" were they being when they said it couldn't be taught anywhere? Google the words; "Vanguard University Intelligent Design" and see how many hits you get.quade - The World's Most Boring Skydiver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jcd11235 0 #17 April 28, 2008 QuoteBut I think it is outrageous that scientists have not been allowed to investigate potentially alternative explanations. Exactly what alternative scientific explanations have scientists not been allowed to investigate?Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jakee 1,594 #18 April 28, 2008 QuoteIf you want the specific examples of people this has happened to WATCH THE FUCKING MOVIE! The film has not been distributed outside the USA yet, so I can't watch it. Could you please answer Kallend's fucking question for me?Do you want to have an ideagasm? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
popsjumper 2 #19 April 28, 2008 Well, here's specific example of what I think auburnguy addresses: Does the (John Templeton) Foundation support I.D.? No. We do not support the political movement known as “Intelligent Design.” This is for three reasons 1) we do not believe the science underpinning the “Intelligent Design” movement is sound, 2) we do not support research or programs that deny large areas of well-documented scientific knowledge, and 3) the Foundation is a non-political entity and does not engage in, or support, political movements. Here's a link to the John Templeton Foundation. http://www.templeton.org/newsroom/Intelligent_Design/ Somehow, ID is only a political movement and has no premise for acedemic study.My reality and yours are quite different. I think we're all Bozos on this bus. Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jakee 1,594 #20 April 28, 2008 QuoteWell, here's specific example of what I think auburnguy addresses: Given that the Templeton foundation is an organisation founded for the specific purpose of rewarding those who bring science and religion/spirituality together it should really tell you something about the validity of ID that they don't want to be associated with it. Also, the Templeton association is an independant charitable body that gives out prizes and grants for research it likes. It has absolutely no power to 'go after' any academics, or 'deny them tenure' or victimise them in any way.Do you want to have an ideagasm? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,146 #21 April 28, 2008 QuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteI was actually going to see this until I saw a trailer where Stein is sitting in the back of what was clearly a biology classroom where a lecturer was discussing evolution. He repeatedly asks "how did it all begin?" in the most annoying way. Good grief - abiogenesis has absolutely nothing to do with evolutionary biology. You'd think someone involved with the film would know this. But then again these are the same people who cannot grasp the basics of the scientific method and thus realize ID has no business being taught in any science curricula. He does not deny that evolution occurs (change over time). What he does question is that the proteins necessary to create the most basic form of life is statistically improbable, were talking trillions upon trillions to one. He also investigates how academics have not been allowed to investigate any type of answer to the origins of life beyond Darwinism. Many have been fired, had funding pulled, ostracized by their peers and called creationists for investigating anything but traditional Darwinism. Really? Can you name some genuine scientists to whom this has happened? Quote I'm not taking sides as to which one is I think is right, not on here anyway. But I think it is outrageous that scientists have not been allowed to investigate potentially alternative explanations. I find it strange and frightening that many people, scientists and non scientists are so vicious in their attacks on researching alternatives to the origins of life. People should have the freedom to research it, and that is not being allowed in the modern day scientific world. Really? Who is preventing it from happening? Watch the movie!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Then discuss. Until then you are stabbing in the dark. . Who is stabbing? I asked a QUESTION. A movie is not evidence of anything. Please cite some genuine scientists who have been victimized in the way you claim. Watch the movie and your question will be answered. I thought a major point was not that people cant do the research but rather that no one in the academic establishment will have anything to do with the research and go after the people studying it, (fire them, deny tenure). If you want the specific examples of people this has happened to WATCH THE FUCKING MOVIE! Your answer really says it all, IT'S JUST A MOVIE. It has no more ability to prove anything than any other movie. Does Star Wars prove that there's life in other galaxies? Surely they teach you something about genuine research at Auburn!... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nerdgirl 0 #22 April 28, 2008 QuoteQuoteBut I think it is outrageous that scientists have not been allowed to investigate potentially alternative explanations. Exactly what alternative scientific explanations have scientists not been allowed to investigate? Alternative explanation, which is just as potentially viable: they’re not good grant writers. Counter-example: A research group with which I was affiliated a number of years ago got funding from DARPA nominally under a program to investigate cold fusion via sonoluminescence (changing sound into light). The PI used the funding partially to disprove some of assertions about ‘desktop nuclear fusion’ and partially to fund scientifically-sound research. It’s something of the inverse of the film’s claim, but it shows that if a PI is a good enough grant writer one can get funded. VR/Marg Act as if everything you do matters, while laughing at yourself for thinking anything you do matters. Tibetan Buddhist saying Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rushmc 23 #23 April 28, 2008 Quote Surely they teach you something about genuine research at Auburn! An equal opportunity insulter!"America will never be destroyed from the outside, if we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves." Abraham Lincoln Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,146 #24 April 28, 2008 Quote Quote Surely they teach you something about genuine research at Auburn! An equal opportunity insulter! Did you too believe "Return of the Jedi" was a documentary?... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
quade 4 #25 April 28, 2008 QuoteDid you too believe "Return of the Jedi" was a documentary? Ok, but what IF the Midi-chlorian are behind the mechanism inside of cells? Wow . . . hold on! That would make both ID AND Star Wars valid!quade - The World's Most Boring Skydiver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
