FLDS Raid

[funjumper101 15]

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"FLDS has been around a long time. Aided and abetted by the main LDS."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fundamentalist_Church_of_Jesus_Christ_of_Latter_Day_Saints

That claim is total crap. FLDS has never been given aid by the LDS Church.

I guess it depends on the definition of "aid" is.
The branch of FLDS on the Utah/Arizona used to dump teenage boys in Salt Lake City. The old guys that ran the show didn't want the competion. The State of Utah never did a thing about it. If you weren't aware, LDS runs the state and the major media outlets. The UT/AZ gang also had dozens of allegations of abuse against them. The allegations were either ignored or investigated poorly. This went on for more than 30 years. According to recent news reports, the majority of funding for the support of the town was via welfare benefits. When 14 year old girls are applying for welfare for their kids, the state has a responsibility to investigate. They didn't. The overwhelming evidence of the deliberate supression of the facts about FLDS by the State of Utah and the LDS is very well documented. That is why FEDERAL intervention was required to start to rein them in. The feds are running the town now, last I heard. I haven't been following this story for a while.

I am sure that this is unpleasant news for an LDS member, but the facts are what they are. No amount of wishing will make them untrue. If you look into how the pressure on the State of Utah and LDS came about over the past 10 tears or so, it is DIRECTLY attributable to the non-Mormons who started covering the stories that were suppressed by LDS owned news outlets. The 60 minutes story about the case that put the town in federal receivership was blacked out in Utah, the first time it was shown! That isn't aid and abetment? 60 Minutes wasn't the only media outlet that covered the story, just one of the biggest.

[Shotgun 1]

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Probably 70% of the reporting is wrong. That's how it usually seems to go.

Oh, OK. Well then maybe they haven't actually taken ANY children into custody. Who knows!?

If 70% of what they're reporting is wrong, then there's really not much point in paying attention to the news. But I'm sort of thinking you're pretty far off with that percentage.

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These people have now had their beliefs confirmed. They have been taught that this would happen - they will be persecuted for their faith.

Well, if their faith involves sexually abusing teenage girls, then I guess they are being persecuted for their faith. As they should be.

[nerdgirl 0]

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Sorry, but you are wrong.

The Sherrif would not say where on the planet this informant was. All we have at this point is called "heresay"..

http://www.keyetv.com/content/news/topnews/story.aspx?content_id=03bbbaa5-9ce4-4160-b953-62a714440e25

What want to label “hearsay,” others, including myself and the judge who signed the warrants, would call “probable cause.”

From the article you linked:

“Rumors and speculation about alleged child physical and sexual abuse, underage marriages and holding people against their will inside the church are nothing new. They were raised four years ago in Eldorado and even more recently at the state capitol.”

So there’s been hearsay for at least 4 years and nothing was done (!)

“But until one 16-year old girl cried out officially for help just over a week ago, everyone says the same thing: they did not have probable cause to take action.”

I’m really curious why you are so vociferously trying to find/create an excuse to criticize an action that some would argue was long overdue?
I just don’t get it …

There was probable cause, due process of law is being followed, there’s been evidence of ‘sensitivity’ on the part of law enforcement, there have been few arrests (yet ... as they are investigating a complaint in order to build cases for arrest if supported by evidence), and representatives of the FLDS are not being prevented from challenging the search in court. They are doing what you wrote you would recommend.

They are not being prosecuted for their religion; they’re being investigating for violating the law. This is not an issue of normatives; it’s an issue of what is legal and what is not.

The article to which you links notes that “for some [of the children and women], it’s their very first time voluntarily outside the church's locked gates.” What does that sound like?

Again, what would you recommend have been done differently?

Or more explicitly, would you recommend do nothing?


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I’m not the only one who has noticed the similarities to the 1953 Short Creek raid. Isolation is how the next generation are controlled & indoctrinated into accepting and perpetuating abuse as norm, both the girls and boys. Almost all of the adult women and children voluntarily returned to the FLDS Short Creek settlement (& no one stopped them).

There’s much wisdom in the characterization offered by then-Governor John Howard Pyle (R) of Arizona described the FLDS of Short Creek as “the foulest conspiracy you could possibly imagine” and that it “amounted to white slavery.”

Pyle’s words predate what is a more apt comparison for the 21st Century: modern American-style Taliban.

While Texas law enforcement is acting in the more recent historical ‘shadow’ of Waco, I hope many of equally cognizant of Short Creek. History is not predicative, but it should not be ignored either.

VR/Marg

Act as if everything you do matters, while laughing at yourself for thinking anything you do matters.
Tibetan Buddhist saying

[rushmc 23]

Here we have an example yet again of someone jumping on a story (presented by the drive by media) when we know ( I make an assumption here) much of the detail will more than lilely come out later.

If and when it does, it will resemble Murtha's comments about "murders" in Iraq ( which are now being shown to be politically motivated comments aimed at the war and dishonoring those serving, for political gain). Murtha is a pure fucking dick by the way regardless of his service.

So, we will wait and see. We will also see no apology from those using this to make a (bogus) point..............maybe

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[Tink1717 2]

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So, I guess we should arrest every Catholic priest...

You say that like it's a bad thing.

Skydivers don't knock on Death's door. They ring the bell and runaway... It really pisses him off.
-The World Famous Tink. (I never heard of you either!!)
AA #2069 ASA#33 POPS#8808 Swooo 1717

[DSE 5]

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"FLDS has been around a long time. Aided and abetted by the main LDS."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fundamentalist_Church_of_Jesus_Christ_of_Latter_Day_Saints

That claim is total crap. FLDS has never been given aid by the LDS Church.

I guess it depends on the definition of "aid" is.
The branch of FLDS on the Utah/Arizona used to dump teenage boys in Salt Lake City. The old guys that ran the show didn't want the competion. The State of Utah never did a thing about it. If you weren't aware, LDS runs the state and the major media outlets. The UT/AZ gang also had dozens of allegations of abuse against them. The allegations were either ignored or investigated poorly. This went on for more than 30 years. According to recent news reports, the majority of funding for the support of the town was via welfare benefits. When 14 year old girls are applying for welfare for their kids, the state has a responsibility to investigate. They didn't. The overwhelming evidence of the deliberate supression of the facts about FLDS by the State of Utah and the LDS is very well documented. That is why FEDERAL intervention was required to start to rein them in. The feds are running the town now, last I heard. I haven't been following this story for a while.

I am sure that this is unpleasant news for an LDS member, but the facts are what they are. No amount of wishing will make them untrue. If you look into how the pressure on the State of Utah and LDS came about over the past 10 tears or so, it is DIRECTLY attributable to the non-Mormons who started covering the stories that were suppressed by LDS owned news outlets. The 60 minutes story about the case that put the town in federal receivership was blacked out in Utah, the first time it was shown! That isn't aid and abetment? 60 Minutes wasn't the only media outlet that covered the story, just one of the biggest.

Most of your post is accurate from my viewpoint, and I agree with everything you say except one thing: The state actually did do something about it, they just didn't take it into court as they should have. The eventual fallout was "The Lost Boys" which has more recently been dismissed due to lack of enthusiasm on the part of the boys, not the AG's office.

There is so much more to this story, and it's far reaching. You'll start hearing more about Idaho, and likely Canada if the locals get their way (locals in Utah, not Texas). This isn't something that merely "occurred" but rather something that has been watched for a long time, and an informant merely gave them the reason to pull the trigger they've been itching to pull for a long time.
As for the rest...yes, the LDS Church by nature of their control over the old AG's office (the more recent AG doesn't really seem to give a shit about the LDS church), and their control over the news has abetted the FLDS faith for a long time. Those days are ending. With the political climate, the LDS faith needs to distance itself as far as possible from the FLDS offshoot, even though the FLDS are pretty much true to the origins of the LDS faith, while the LDS faith bears little resemblance to what it was 100 years ago.

[jcd11235 0]

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There’s much wisdom in the characterization offered by then-Governor John Howard Pyle (R) of Arizona described the FLDS of Short Creek as “the foulest conspiracy you could possibly imagine” and that it “amounted to white slavery.”

Pyle’s words predate what is a more apt comparison for the 21st Century: modern American-style Taliban.

The more I read about FLDS, the more realistic the comparison between FLDS and the Taliban appears. Apparently others have also recognized the similarities.

"I have a corner of my state that is worse than [under] the Taliban," Utah Atty. Gen. Mark Shurtleff acknowledged.

The question isn't why this raid took place; the question is why didn't it occur sooner.

Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials!

[cloudseeker2001 0]

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I do not believe anything the "government" says and it is clear all they needed was this one caller who cannot even be located to get their ball rolling!!!!!!!! Yea right! Believe that you SUCKERS!!!!!!!!!!

So, what do you think was their motivation to investigate the place if they didn't think that there was a possible child abuse situation?

It is a cult and cult's have a nasty habbit of things going wrong in a very bad way and the government does not like large groups of people to build compounds out in remote parts of the country. What the governent has done is lie to create a reason to invade and child abuse is a number 1 reason in most people's eyes and it creates the most sympathy among the general public......you know, the old line.......but, but what about the children???????? Not unlike Waco....it was a lie and now they cannot even find this girl who so urgently needed help! How many beaten, 15 year old mom's could live there?

Have you noticed that everything that the media has reported is from the government and the residents have said nothing? The government is breaking up this group of people for the same reasons as Waco.

"Some call it heavenly in it's brilliance,
others mean and rueful of the western dream"

[Shotgun 1]

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It is a cult and cult's have a nasty habbit of things going wrong in a very bad way and the government does not like large groups of people to build compounds out in remote parts of the country.

There used to be a commune/cult called Zendik Farm outside of Austin, TX. They were there for a long time, and I'm pretty sure the police never bothered them. They seemed to have a pretty big following, with sort of "out there" ideas (they even preached non-monogamy, I believe), but I think they were left alone because they weren't doing anything illegal. (Well, I wouldn't be surprised if some of them smoked pot, but unless they were growing and selling it, the cops probably didn't care too much.)

There seems to be quite a few sexual abuse cases related to the FLDS group, so I have a hard time believing that they're all just made up.

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Have you noticed that everything that the media has reported is from the government and the residents have said nothing?

There are plenty of ex-residents who have spoken out about the group, and they seem to have the same story that the government has (forced marriages, sexual abuse, etc.).

[cloudseeker2001 0]

If they are doing what the government says, then yes, investigate. But, what I am saying is they are more likely to lie and build a nice little publicity stunt to push their cause. This group was a target of the cops becasue of what happened in Utah with their leader and they are moving on to the rest of the case by breaking up the cult-as they probably should if the things being said are true. But, where is the girl who needed help and made the call.....it might be a lie to get there paperwork to invade.........And they are out to get everyone when everyone is not to blame. And I have seen the former residents(why no current residents or even lawyers for them? If they have, I have not seen them, but I watch almost no TV.....), but, I do not buy what they say just because they say it on TV. How do we even know they were there in the first place? It is nice to see that this has not become another Waco or Ruby Ridge. Many law enforcement people are walking free or retired today who are killers.

"Some call it heavenly in it's brilliance,
others mean and rueful of the western dream"

[GQ_jumper 4]

The question isn't why this raid took place; the question is why didn't it occur sooner.

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That's a very good question, and from the looks of whats been reported so far the raid didn't happen sooner because the authorities were trying to make sure that they had all their ducks in a row before they made a move. Anyone with any amount of common sense would have known a raid like this would cause the media to have a feeding frenzy so they wanted to make sure they went by the book so that nobody would be getting out of trouble because they had a lawyer who found a loophole in the warrant.

History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or the timid.
--Dwight D. Eisenhower

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[cloudseeker2001 0]

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The question isn't why this raid took place; the question is why didn't it occur sooner.

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That's a very good question, and from the looks of whats been reported so far the raid didn't happen sooner because the authorities were trying to make sure that they had all their ducks in a row before they made a move. Anyone with any amount of common sense would have known a raid like this would cause the media to have a feeding frenzy so they wanted to make sure they went by the book so that nobody would be getting out of trouble because they had a lawyer who found a loophole in the warrant.

______________________________________________

Taken from News2Houston.

"As for Mr. Barlow, we are continuing to look into whether we have a warrant on the correct person," said Tela Mange, spokeswoman for the Texas Department of Public Safety. "Until we are able to locate and talk with the complainant it will be difficult for us to know for certain the correct identity of the alleged suspect."

________________________________________________

They claim to not even know who the girl is that made the call! They do not even know who to arrest!!!!!!!!!!! This such a crock of shit reason! Not to mention, they have taken these people's children and wrecked their houses and lives on the claim of one caller who they cannot even locate?????????? Am I the only one who thinks these actions by this government too much? You Suckers!!!!!!!

What if someone called the local cops to report someone was jumping a stolen rig at your DZ and the next thing you see is the cops removing every single rig from every single person with the story of "Well, we got reports of stolen rigs out here............."

Now where are those WMD???????????? They must be here somewhere!!!!!!!!!!!!!

"Some call it heavenly in it's brilliance,
others mean and rueful of the western dream"

[funjumper101 15]

Where were the FLDS children going to school?

Who was supervising the curriculm?

Who was testing the kids academic performance?

How did they perform on the required "No Child Left Behind" testing program?

It would have done those kids a world of good to have to leave the ranch every day to attend school. They would have been exposed to the evil outside world. The crap that was being taught to them at home would not have matched up with their own experience. FLDS would have died out on its own.

/sarcasm on/
I thought Texas has been leading the way in education, ever since Guvner W fixed everything up.
/sarcasm off/

[jcd11235 0]

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What if someone called the local cops to report someone was jumping a stolen rig at your DZ and the next thing you see is the cops removing every single rig from every single person with the story of "Well, we got reports of stolen rigs out here............."

If they couldn't identify the stolen rig mentioned in the call, but found substantial evidence that most all the rigs at the DZ were stolen, then yes, I would expect all the rigs to be confiscated.

Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials!

[GQ_jumper 4]

They claim to not even know who the girl is that made the call! They do not even know who to arrest!!!!!!!!!!! This such a crock of shit reason! Not to mention, they have taken these people's children and wrecked their houses and lives on the claim of one caller who they cannot even locate?????????? Am I the only one who thinks these actions by this government too much? You Suckers!!!!!!!

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Do you read anything, or just what supports your position??

The authorities were collecting evidence against these people for quite a while before this phone call came in, they didn't just suddenly get turned onto this whole thing by one phone call. They had been waiting for the reason to take everything they had before judge to seek a search warrant for quite a while, this call for help was the green light they needed. When you have tons of information and want to go after someone and anonymous cry for help is the trigger you need to get the ball rolling.

And apart from the one phone call, they have found more than enough evidence to justify their actions. Do you think those girls should still be held by the men that were forcing them into marriages?

History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or the timid.
--Dwight D. Eisenhower

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[Zipp0 1]

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They claim to not even know who the girl is that made the call! They do not even know who to arrest!!!!!!!!!!! This such a crock of shit reason! Not to mention, they have taken these people's children and wrecked their houses and lives on the claim of one caller who they cannot even locate?????????? Am I the only one who thinks these actions by this government too much? You Suckers!!!!!!!

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Do you read anything, or just what supports your position??

The authorities were collecting evidence against these people for quite a while before this phone call came in, they didn't just suddenly get turned onto this whole thing by one phone call. They had been waiting for the reason to take everything they had before judge to seek a search warrant for quite a while, this call for help was the green light they needed. When you have tons of information and want to go after someone and anonymous cry for help is the trigger you need to get the ball rolling.

And apart from the one phone call, they have found more than enough evidence to justify their actions. Do you think those girls should still be held by the men that were forcing them into marriages?

Evidently their ducks were NOT in a row.... Their ducks seem to be scattered all over the place:

http://www.kutv.com/content/news/topnews/story.aspx?content_id=d8eecfb2-0174-4aed-bfcc-b9854fa6cffa

I hope their whole case insn't based on accusations against Barlow.

--------------------------
Chuck Norris doesn't do push-ups, he pushes the Earth down.

[nerdgirl 0]

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Evidently their ducks were NOT in a row.... Their ducks seem to be scattered all over the place:

http://www.kutv.com/content/news/topnews/story.aspx?content_id=d8eecfb2-0174-4aed-bfcc-b9854fa6cffa

I hope their whole case insn't based on accusations against Barlow.

It sounds like one of the accused’s rights are being respected.

As far as due process of law:

“State District Judge Barbara Walther held the preliminary hearing to prepare for Thursday's expected marathon session, when the state will plea for permanent custody of all of the children seized earlier this month from the ranch of the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, a renegade Mormon sect.

“Gary Banks, a lawyer representing the state CPS, told the judge the state believes ‘there is a systematic process at the ranch near Eldorado at which children were exploited and sexually abused.’

“Walther was clearly struggling with how to organize the largest child-custody hearing in Texas history, and perhaps in the nation. She also said she was circulating a memo to church officials ‘to make sure they know they have a right and that right is guarded for them.’ [i.e., ensuring due process of law & protection of the rights of all the FLDS members, whether potential victims or lawbreakers].”

Btw: there are reports of another investigation of sexual abuse of minor, this time in Colorado City (nee Short Creek), AZ.

VR/Marg

Act as if everything you do matters, while laughing at yourself for thinking anything you do matters.
Tibetan Buddhist saying

[cloudseeker2001 0]

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What if someone called the local cops to report someone was jumping a stolen rig at your DZ and the next thing you see is the cops removing every single rig from every single person with the story of "Well, we got reports of stolen rigs out here............."

If they couldn't identify the stolen rig mentioned in the call, but found substantial evidence that most all the rigs at the DZ were stolen, then yes, I would expect all the rigs to be confiscated.

I would like to make sure I understand.......the cops show up to the DZ and they say "someone, we do not know who, called and told us a stolen rig was being jumped here and we do not know what rig it is......BUT we are taking all of them just to be sure we get the right one" And you are fine with this? You think this is reasonable actions on the part of the police to take a 100K worth of equipment?

I would like to make sure I understand you.

"Some call it heavenly in it's brilliance,
others mean and rueful of the western dream"

[cloudseeker2001 0]

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They claim to not even know who the girl is that made the call! They do not even know who to arrest!!!!!!!!!!! This such a crock of shit reason! Not to mention, they have taken these people's children and wrecked their houses and lives on the claim of one caller who they cannot even locate?????????? Am I the only one who thinks these actions by this government too much? You Suckers!!!!!!!

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Do you read anything, or just what supports your position??

The authorities were collecting evidence against these people for quite a while before this phone call came in, they didn't just suddenly get turned onto this whole thing by one phone call. They had been waiting for the reason to take everything they had before judge to seek a search warrant for quite a while, this call for help was the green light they needed. When you have tons of information and want to go after someone and anonymous cry for help is the trigger you need to get the ball rolling.

And apart from the one phone call, they have found more than enough evidence to justify their actions. Do you think those girls should still be held by the men that were forcing them into marriages?

It is all over the news........Read what I pulled from the local ABC website.

"Some call it heavenly in it's brilliance,
others mean and rueful of the western dream"

[jcd11235 0]

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I would like to make sure I understand.......the cops show up to the DZ and they say "someone, we do not know who, called and told us a stolen rig was being jumped here and we do not know what rig it is......BUT we are taking all of them just to be sure we get the right one" And you are fine with this? You think this is reasonable actions on the part of the police to take a 100K worth of equipment?

I would like to make sure I understand you.

No, that's not what I said, nor is that similar to what happened at the FLDS compound.

Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials!

[cloudseeker2001 0]

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I would like to make sure I understand.......the cops show up to the DZ and they say "someone, we do not know who, called and told us a stolen rig was being jumped here and we do not know what rig it is......BUT we are taking all of them just to be sure we get the right one" And you are fine with this? You think this is reasonable actions on the part of the police to take a 100K worth of equipment?

I would like to make sure I understand you.

No, that's not what I said, nor is that similar to what happened at the FLDS compound.

I have not heard that the government had info that most, some, few or even a couple of girls had been mistreated. I have only heard that they had one girl make a call and they have no idea who she is.

"Some call it heavenly in it's brilliance,
others mean and rueful of the western dream"

[Shotgun 1]

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I have not heard that the government had info that most, some, few or even a couple of girls had been mistreated. I have only heard that they had one girl make a call and they have no idea who she is.

Then you must not have heard much about it.

[cloudseeker2001 0]

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I have not heard that the government had info that most, some, few or even a couple of girls had been mistreated. I have only heard that they had one girl make a call and they have no idea who she is.

Then you must not have heard much about it.

Probably. I do not watch TV at all, so I miss much of what most people think it true information. I have read a number of websites concerning this case, but the gossip is mostly left out of written word.

"Some call it heavenly in it's brilliance,
others mean and rueful of the western dream"

[cloudseeker2001 0]

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I have not heard that the government had info that most, some, few or even a couple of girls had been mistreated. I have only heard that they had one girl make a call and they have no idea who she is.

Then you must not have heard much about it.

Caver said no one was found inside the temple. But a Texas Rangers affidavit released Wednesday cited evidence that included unmade beds in the temple that an informant said were used for grown men to have sex with their young "spiritual wives" after weddings.

_______________________________________________

I quickly read through about 8 articles at the CNN website and this is about the best I could find concerning the evidence of mass abuse of young girls. But, I could have missed something.

"Some call it heavenly in it's brilliance,
others mean and rueful of the western dream"

[Shotgun 1]

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Probably. I do not watch TV at all, so I miss much of what most people think it true information. I have read a number of websites concerning this case, but the gossip is mostly left out of written word.

Interesting... All the information I've heard has also been from news websites, and it seems to me that they have quite a bit of evidence showing that underage girls in this group have been forced to marry and have sex with older men.