Voting machines analysis infringes intellectual property

[georgerussia 0]

http://www.freedom-to-tinker.com/?p=1265


Dear Professors Felten and Appel:

As you have likely read in the news media, certain New Jersey election officials have stated that they plan to send to you one or more Sequoia Advantage voting machines for analysis. I want to make you aware that if the County does so, it violates their established Sequoia licensing Agreement for use of the voting system. Sequoia has also retained counsel to stop any infringement of our intellectual properties, including any non-compliant analysis. We will also take appropriate steps to protect against any publication of Sequoia software, its behavior, reports regarding same or any other infringement of our intellectual property.


Is there any valid reason for the company to forbid analysis of voting machines software developed by them?
If so, why did the states signed such biased license agreement which prohibits independed software audit?

* Don't pray for me if you wanna help - just send me a check. *

[Andrewwhyte 1]

I still cannot for the life of me see what adavantage these things have over a pencil and a piece of paper.

[skydyvr 0]

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I still cannot for the life of me see what adavantage these things have over a pencil and a piece of paper.

None. Election fraud can take place regardless of which method is used to count votes.

. . =(_8^(1)

[labrys 0]

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I still cannot for the life of me see what adavantage these things have over a pencil and a piece of paper.

Someone other than pencil and paper manufacturers make a profit.

Owned by Remi #?

[sfc 1]

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I still cannot for the life of me see what adavantage these things have over a pencil and a piece of paper.

Pluses are: Faster accurate counting, no more "chad" problems, saves a boat load of paper and ink.

Kindof like asking why we are using cars instead horses, CDs instead of 8-tracks, digital cameras instead of rolls of film, we figure out newer ways of doing things, I don't write anything on paper for anything other than government paperwork and checks, even that is changing, i now file my taxes on line from the comfort of my home. I hope in the future (if I ever decide to become a citizen) that I can vote on-line as well, I see this as a step towards doing that.

[labrys 0]

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Pluses are: Faster accurate counting, no more "chad" problems, saves a boat load of paper and ink.

Faster... probably. But I don't recall a time when a local polling site was unable to count votes in time to submit them.

More accurate.... that depends on how careful the folks who tally the votes are.

Paper / pencil voting systems are not subject to "chad" problems

Good electronic voting systems generate a paper record of the vote for auditing. No real savings on paper or ink

That leaves faster. And a hell of a lot more expensive. And easier to break than paper and pencil.

The car vs. horse drawn carriage comparrison is not fair. There are times, even today, that a horse is still more efficient for a given task than a car is.

A lot of people want to apply technology to every situation simply because it's "newer". This is the same mindframe that sees every problem as a nail because the only tool they happen to have on them is a hammer.

Owned by Remi #?

[idrankwhat 0]

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I still cannot for the life of me see what adavantage these things have over a pencil and a piece of paper.

None. Election fraud can take place regardless of which method is used to count votes.

Very true, but one leaves a paper trail and the other leaves ____________.
Actually it leaves less than that. It's 2008 and we can send accurate, auditable financial transactions around the world in seconds. There's absolutely no reason that we shouldn't be able to do the same thing with a vote. And as far as the machine makers go, I understand why they might prefer not to have people going through their machines looking for problems but they need to realize that it's going to have to happen. It's been proven repeatedly that fraud is possible and rather easy with some of these machines. If they want to play the game then they're going to have to open up and show us the goods.

[kelpdiver 2]

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Pluses are: Faster accurate counting, no more "chad" problems, saves a boat load of paper and ink.

Faster... probably. But I don't recall a time when a local polling site was unable to count votes in time to submit them.

No question on speed. SF is notorious for taking days to get results, and the move to ranked order voting (letting you pick 2nd and 3rd choices) really can't be effectively done on paper.

A well designed, fraud proof touch screen voting system would be an improvement - it would remove voting error, speed the voting process (key for the overloaded polling locations) and should result in a small margin of error in the end results.

But when half of California votes absentee, and the closed system architecture screams fraud potential, I'm less sure of their future.

[sfc 1]

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Pluses are: Faster accurate counting, no more "chad" problems, saves a boat load of paper and ink.

Faster... probably. But I don't recall a time when a local polling site was unable to count votes in time to submit them.

More accurate.... that depends on how careful the folks who tally the votes are.

Paper / pencil voting systems are not subject to "chad" problems

Good electronic voting systems generate a paper record of the vote for auditing. No real savings on paper or ink

That leaves faster. And a hell of a lot more expensive. And easier to break than paper and pencil.

The car vs. horse drawn carriage comparrison is not fair. There are times, even today, that a horse is still more efficient for a given task than a car is.

A lot of people want to apply technology to every situation simply because it's "newer". This is the same mindframe that sees every problem as a nail because the only tool they happen to have on them is a hammer.

My motivation is convenience, being able to do it on a web page would save me time, not that I think it is cool.
I also think it will save money over all. Think about all the time (i.e. money) a citizen could save if they did not have to get into the car, and use expensive gas to drive to the polling station? Also for absentee votes it would save the postage and processing.
A lot of resistance to change is just that, resistance to change, people get comfortable with the status quo and don't want to move on.

[cumplidor 0]

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Is there any valid reason for the company to forbid analysis of voting machines software developed by them?

Would they be subject to lawsuits if their software were proven to not be written properly to count votes accurately? Why not use one standard program for all electronic machines and have that code be open source?

[georgerussia 0]

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Would they be subject to lawsuits if their software were proven to not be written properly to count votes accurately?

I guess in this case (if it's proven) it would probably be a criminal prosecution, not just a civil lawsuit.

The problem, however, is slightly different here. If a software company could prohibit a legal owner of the software to conduct an independend research whether the software bought could actually perform its job claiming it would "infringe their intellectual property rights", I think the whole intellectual property concept should be revised.

* Don't pray for me if you wanna help - just send me a check. *

[DrewEckhardt 0]

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http://www.freedom-to-tinker.com/?p=1265
Is there any valid reason for the company to forbid analysis of voting machines software developed by them?

Yes. Most people do not know how to design software which can be thoroughly tested. Most people managing software development projects aren't willing to pay the upfront costs to be thorough. Most managers aren't willing to spend money for tools which make the process more effective. The net result is that software is full of bugs that are especially likely to manifest when abnormal timing situations or faults occur.

The professors are likely to find interesting problems that aren't unique to the company's products, but will have governments who've yet to buy looking at other market alternatives.

That would be bad for a business planning on averaging $3000 per voting terminal, and bad for the investors who spend $25, $50, or even $100M on software companies before they see a dime of profit.

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If so, why did the states signed such biased license agreement which prohibits independed software audit?

The procurement process is largely political.

[azdiver 0]

fears of corporate espionage. they have millions invested and if someone outside of the company is given it for free, they could turn around and produce the same thing without the millions put up front. they could then turn around and under cut them, causing them to lose everything invested.

light travels faster than sound, that's why some people appear to be bright until you hear them speak

[Gene03 0]

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I still cannot for the life of me see what adavantage these things have over a pencil and a piece of paper.

They are programmable and they don't leave a paper trail.
Do a Google search on the New York Times articles from the Collier brothers.

“The only fool bigger than the person who knows it all is the person who argues with him.

Stanislaw Jerzy Lec quotes (Polish writer, poet and satirist 1906-1966)

[jcd11235 0]

In terms of what is best for the voters, any electronic voting system should be based on open source software, nothing proprietary. OpenBSD would be the ideal choice, due to its security, but some flavor of Linux, OpenSolaris or BSD could all be utilized successfully without the problems associated with proprietary software, of which intellectual property rights are only a minor example.

Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials!

[azdiver 0]

everything in gov. and buss. is about money, so to analyze their actions it needs to broken down to dollars and cents. not whats morally right or wrong. neither one will take actions that wont show up on a line or have an effect on the bottom line.

light travels faster than sound, that's why some people appear to be bright until you hear them speak

[tbrown 26]

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I still cannot for the life of me see what adavantage these things have over a pencil and a piece of paper.

They can cheat SO much more efficiently.

Your humble servant.....Professor Gravity !

[jcd11235 0]

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everything in gov. and buss. is about money, so to analyze their actions it needs to broken down to dollars and cents. not whats morally right or wrong. neither one will take actions that wont show up on a line or have an effect on the bottom line.

I agree that that is how things are. But that's not how the should be. That's not what is best for voters. If electronic voting is to be implemented, it needs to be completely transparent. Proprietary software does not generally allow that, since someone is always worried about intellectual property rights. Transparency in a voting system is far more important than the intellectual property rights of the software developer.

Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials!

[azdiver 0]

but the price tag on morality is to high for gov. and not profitable enough for buss. . Cheap for gov. and worth while profits for buss. is the only way that they would be available

light travels faster than sound, that's why some people appear to be bright until you hear them speak

[jcd11235 0]

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but the price tag on morality is to high for gov. and not profitable enough for buss. . Cheap for gov. and worth while profits for buss. is the only way that they would be available

OpenBSD is free open source software, and likely the most secure operating system publicly available today. Publish the application criteria, and the open source community will undoubtedly make huge contributions to that also if it means a transparent electronic voting system.

Secure, transparent electronic voting is possible, and not at a great expense.

Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials!

[azdiver 0]

not saying the ability to do it wouldnt be possible its the finished product, someone has to build them, maintain, upgrade, and operate. and the gov. is the only customer and elec. are not everyday buss. less time for company to make its profit.

light travels faster than sound, that's why some people appear to be bright until you hear them speak