PLFXpert 0
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skybytch 273
QuoteYou always have a choice.
The words I quoted previously (to which you first replied) are so important in so many areas. If I've learned anything in life, it's that even when I shouldn't have to, I must let go of such resentments in order to move forward. "Living well is the best revenge."
When such resentments rise, I decide not to allow them to get the best of me. What good would that do? Certainly those whom I might have otherwise resented don't give a shit. And nothing would change by me being resentful. I would simply be angry. And who wants to live like that?
You and I are white. We have a lot of choices that many women of color do not have.
For myself, I agree with you that resentment is not healthy, nor does it accomplish anything positive. But I have to wonder, if I were a 40 year old black single mother working 40 hours a week and trying to go to school full time, would I be able to not resent someone who has it easier? Someone like that has to work two or three times as hard to accomplish her goal as I am having to work to accomplish mine. I don't know... I think it'd be awfully hard to not be resentful in that position.
Gawain 0
QuoteQuoteI am saying that refusal to let go of the resentment does not truly free them from the shackles that they would be free of until they do so.
It's mighty hard to let go of resentment when what it springs from is the institutionalization of whichever -ism is under discussion (racism, sexism, classism...). In an ideal world, every person would have the same opportunities regardless of their race, gender or class status. In the US today, those who aren't white males start at least a half step behind - due to cultural expectations, lower quality of education and lower quality or lack of medical care, amongst other things.
I have to call bullsh*t on that right there. Demanding a "handicap" due to the color of your skin is the set-up for failure, not the other way around.
Who's been running the schools, padding the "failures" and passing the illiterate? Just because some guy who lived through the 60s and saw President Johnson pass legislation does not mean that the same crap is waiting for their children, or grand-children.
Those who choose not to make it, are doing so to feed the "victim" status that the likes of Jackson, Sharpton and Farrakan. These leaders are a disgrace to their movement, but there is nothing more they can do because otherwise there would be no "need" for them. It feeds right into the rhetoric of Sen. Obama's minister.
QuoteHow do we know that racism/sexism is institutionalized in the US? Because it's such a big deal that one candidate for president is a woman (she's not the first one, after all) and another is black.
It's a big deal because everyone makes it so. An African-American does this...a Hispanic-American does that...an Italian-American achieves this...a Chinese-American did that...
To that, I say, "Thanks a lot President Bill Clinton for pushing that shit"...we can thank the 90s for hyphenating all the "Americans"...it's f**k**g bullshit. ...
QuoteAnd ya better watch out, cuz that resentment can translate into political action. Which, strangely enough, may have the effect of someday creating said level playing field.
You know, you're right...I'm going to create an organization demanding equal representation of whites in the NAACP, major sports....in fact, let's ensure it's reflective of the population as well...I want a sporting affirmative action....otherwise, I'll start a new action group...WHAAM...White Hetero American Advancement Movement...
...So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh
Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright
'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life
Make light!
Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright
'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life
Make light!
PLFXpert 0
QuoteBut I have to wonder, if I were a 40 year old black single mother working 40 hours a week and trying to go to school full time, would I be able to not resent someone who has it easier? Someone like that has to work two or three times as hard
Is she working harder than you? In what way? (Other than I'm not sure if you're a mom--don't think you are--so let's take the "single-mother" part out of the equation just to keep things simple.)
I'm not asking because I think I know your answer, you just haven't given an example.
Wendy gave an example of the beeper & the car. No doubt that still occurs.
Still have a choice--doesn't mean it's right. But, one has more control of their reaction & subsequent actions than they have expecting "the offender" to change theirs. And eventually, after so many "live well" in despite of, "the offenders" will fade away and give way to a new generation.
Paint me in a corner, but my color comes back.
rushmc 23
QuoteQuote
What they do not seem to want to ponder is exactly what the message is, if it is or has been consistant, and what CHANGES is he planning on making?
We don't get to talk about that sort of stuff because some people seem to think that a few sound bites from his preacher are more important. And if it wasn't that it would be his middle name, or a lapel pin, or........probably his choice of toothpaste or something equally as imperative.
A few sound bites huh. Well think of this as a sound bite. He went to a church for 20 years where the preacher of that church supports the belief that if god supports the white man then that god should be killed.
I guess this is the left version of tolerance and inclusion.
As far a Obama not knowing what this man was? Give me a break
"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln
rushmc 23
QuoteQuoteObama is being a bit of a hypocrite when it comes to the reverend Wright. He goes to this man's church for twenty years, gets married in the church, has his kids baptised in the church and excuses what the good minister say.
But, it was Obama who was one of those on MSNBC calling for Don Imus to be fired after making a stupid remark about the Rutger's women's basketball team (nappy headed 'hos).
How can he excuse the racist remarks from the minister over a period of twenty years but not excuse Imus' stupid remark?
I must respectfully ask: Did you listen to or read all of his speech?
He did not excuse anything. He said he condemned what Wright said.
Your comparison is not appropriate to this argument. What Don Imus said was not a "stupid remark" - it was a racial slur on public radio waves. I'm pretty sure there not broadcasting Rev. Wright all over the country.
There's a big difference between leaked/posted video and sponsor-funded tv and radio, don't you think?
I mean no disrespect, just my opinion.QuoteWhich part? The part where he threw his grandmother under the bus? Or the part where he said we are what we are and we cant help it. Or, the part where he says the Regan times where because the right used race and scared people into voting that way? Ya, I heard and saw the racist give his speach
Which can be wrong.
Edited to add:
It should also be noted that Wright was referred-to as his "former pastor" in Obama's speech."America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln
billvon 3,120
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>Demanding a "handicap" due to the color of your skin is the set-up
>for failure, not the other way around.
Lisa didn't claim anyone was.
Denying that that handicap exists is intentional ignorance. It DOES exist, and we should work towards solving it. (Which is what much of that speech was about BTW.)
>Those who choose not to make it, are doing so to feed the "victim"
>status that the likes of Jackson, Sharpton and Farrakan.
Sounds like you agree with Obama, then.
>I'm going to create an organization demanding equal representation
>of whites in the NAACP, major sports . . .
So do so.
>for failure, not the other way around.
Lisa didn't claim anyone was.
Denying that that handicap exists is intentional ignorance. It DOES exist, and we should work towards solving it. (Which is what much of that speech was about BTW.)
>Those who choose not to make it, are doing so to feed the "victim"
>status that the likes of Jackson, Sharpton and Farrakan.
Sounds like you agree with Obama, then.
>I'm going to create an organization demanding equal representation
>of whites in the NAACP, major sports . . .
So do so.
skybytch 273
QuoteI have to call bullsh*t on that right there. Demanding a "handicap" due to the color of your skin is the set-up for failure, not the other way around.
You can't deny that most inner city schools do not provide the same quality of education that suburban schools do. If a lower quality education is not a disadvantage to someone who wants to succeed in other than the blue collar or criminal worlds then I must be confused on the meaning of the word.
We don't all start from the same starting line. Lots of people have to jump a hurdle or two to even get to where you started from. Denying the fact that these hurdles exist is close minded and a good example of how racism/sexism/classism has been institutionalized.
QuoteWHAAM...White Hetero American Advancement Movement.
You forgot High Middle To Upper Class. White Hetero American Middle to Upper Class Advancement Movement. WHAMUCHAM.
Eh, you already have one. It's called the United States of America.
billvon 3,120
> Well think of this as a sound bite. He went to a church for 20 years
> where the preacher of that church supports the belief that if god supports
> the white man then that god should be killed.
Right.
And McCain calls Vietnamese "gooks."
And James Inhofe, GOP senator, blamed the US's policies in Israel for 9/11.
And Rod Parsley, McCain's spiritual advisor, claimed that America was founded with the intention of seeing Islam destroyed.
And George Bush consulted with Pat Robertson on the Iraq war after Robertson claimed that Americans caused 9/11.
Needless to say, though, they were all white.
I'll see your drive-by sound bite and raise you four.
> where the preacher of that church supports the belief that if god supports
> the white man then that god should be killed.
Right.
And McCain calls Vietnamese "gooks."
And James Inhofe, GOP senator, blamed the US's policies in Israel for 9/11.
And Rod Parsley, McCain's spiritual advisor, claimed that America was founded with the intention of seeing Islam destroyed.
And George Bush consulted with Pat Robertson on the Iraq war after Robertson claimed that Americans caused 9/11.
Needless to say, though, they were all white.
I'll see your drive-by sound bite and raise you four.
billvon 3,120
>Which part? The part where he threw his grandmother under the bus?
I suggest you watch his speech, then. That's not what he said.
I suggest you watch his speech, then. That's not what he said.
Royd 0
Hmmm. I don't recall a whole lot of fireworks over Condi Rice. Could it be that she's just in the wrong party? Or could it be that she's never made a big deal about being black. She just does her job. She has truly freed herself from the artificial bondage of race.QuoteHow do we know that racism/sexism is institutionalized in the US? Because it's such a big deal that one candidate for president is a woman (she's not the first one, after all) and another is black. It's still a big deal when a non-white male achieves great (non-Hollywood/music industry) success.
Gawain 0
QuoteQuoteI have to call bullsh*t on that right there. Demanding a "handicap" due to the color of your skin is the set-up for failure, not the other way around.
You can't deny that most inner city schools do not provide the same quality of education that suburban schools do.
I won't deny it. I'll even advance your argument. Who has been running the major cities for the past 40 years?
QuoteIf a lower quality education is not a disadvantage to someone who wants to succeed in other than the blue collar or criminal worlds then I must be confused on the meaning of the word.
I won't deny that either. Again, I'll advance your argument further. Who runs the schools? These schools get funded for all sorts of programs and they leave out math, english, etc. Why is it that the Charter and Magnet schools in the cities do so much better? They don't open themselves to just anyone based on entitlement. If young kids are unable to develop their own initiative, and they can't draw it from their upbrining with their parents, then it's not really the school's problem then is it?
I'm still waiting for the part where this has to do with someone's skin color though.
QuoteWe don't all start from the same starting line. Lots of people have to jump a hurdle or two to even get to where you started from. Denying the fact that these hurdles exist is close minded and a good example of how racism/sexism/classism has been institutionalized.
I said nothing about there being no hurdles. I will contend that hurdles and obstacles are matters of perception.
QuoteQuoteWHAAM...White Hetero American Advancement Movement.
You forgot High Middle To Upper Class. White Hetero American Middle to Upper Class Advancement Movement. WHAMUCHAM.
Eh, you already have one. It's called the United States of America.
Affirmative Action ring a bell? It does more harm than good. Talk about set up for failure..."you're not qualified, but because you're the right color, we're going to hire you"
edit to fix formatting
So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh
Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright
'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life
Make light!
Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright
'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life
Make light!
skybytch 273
QuoteIs she working harder than you? In what way? (Other than I'm not sure if you're a mom--don't think you are--so let's take the "single-mother" part out of the equation just to keep things simple.)
Absolutely. I don't have to go to work. All I have to do is go to class and study. She has to go to work, go to class and study. Not to mention take care of a kid or three.
What she's dealing with is why I didn't go to school when I was a single parent. To make her life more difficult, she probably didn't have the quality of education that I had (not that it was all that good) so she's probably had to take more remedial classes, which delay the achieving of her goal by yet another semester or three...
I'm not making her up either. I've talked to several of her in a few of my classes. None of them gave the impression that they were at all resentful about the hurdles they've had to jump, only that they are happy to have the chance to go to school and achieve their dreams.
QuoteBut, one has more control of their reaction & subsequent actions than they have expecting "the offender" to change theirs.
Not expecting the oppressor to reform is implicit agreement with the oppression, isn't it?
Royd 0
So what you're saying is that the liberals got...........nothing.QuoteWant to know what the days topics on DIZZY DOT COM are going to be tomorrow... Listen to right wing hate radio today.. and you will have tomorrows talking points.. spot on.
Gawain 0
QuoteSo what you're saying is that the liberals got...........nothing.QuoteWant to know what the days topics on DIZZY DOT COM are going to be tomorrow... Listen to right wing hate radio today.. and you will have tomorrows talking points.. spot on.
Don't say that...they got Al Franken...
So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh
Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright
'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life
Make light!
Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright
'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life
Make light!
PLFXpert 0
QuoteNot expecting the oppressor to reform is implicit agreement with the oppression, isn't it?
Nope.
(Edit: Think rapists. I don't expect some of them to reform. I defintitely DON'T agree with their oppression. I hope for their reform...)
Paint me in a corner, but my color comes back.
Lisa:
I developed a theory in life at an early age. I observed that many who had fun young had no fun when older.
I remember being in school and working 30 hours a week to pay for it, which was in addition to my merit scholarship. I did have an advantage, though - I did not have kids.
I did not have a wife. Shoot, I didn't have a girlfriend for most of it. I didn't have the time. I knew having a kid would mess me up. So I took steps.
I didn't have my first till I was 31. I had my education and my career BEFORE I had kids. See, that way, I didn't have them to get in the way of those things.
Imagine if I had a kid when I was 20. I'd have a 15 year old now. And I probably would not have had the education that I have now because I would have had a kid to take care of.
You have your kid - a young man now (with a pilot's license, as I recall. I recall the gleam in your eye a few years ago). You are now getting that education that you did not get when you were younger.
I was a lonely guy back during that time. But I had a goal.
You and I and everybody - we are all the result of our choices. Max lost his leg - and he'll say it was due in large part to his choice to enlist. His choice. Max has PLENTY to bitch about, doesn't he? But he moves forward despite his apparent "disadvantage."
There can be much said about oppressor and oppressed. I've found though my dealings with people that most manage to find ways to oppress themselves.
Those cases of legitimate oppression exist. But I have seen far more examples of self-oppression.
My wife is hotter than your wife.
I developed a theory in life at an early age. I observed that many who had fun young had no fun when older.
I remember being in school and working 30 hours a week to pay for it, which was in addition to my merit scholarship. I did have an advantage, though - I did not have kids.
I did not have a wife. Shoot, I didn't have a girlfriend for most of it. I didn't have the time. I knew having a kid would mess me up. So I took steps.
I didn't have my first till I was 31. I had my education and my career BEFORE I had kids. See, that way, I didn't have them to get in the way of those things.
Imagine if I had a kid when I was 20. I'd have a 15 year old now. And I probably would not have had the education that I have now because I would have had a kid to take care of.
You have your kid - a young man now (with a pilot's license, as I recall. I recall the gleam in your eye a few years ago). You are now getting that education that you did not get when you were younger.
I was a lonely guy back during that time. But I had a goal.
You and I and everybody - we are all the result of our choices. Max lost his leg - and he'll say it was due in large part to his choice to enlist. His choice. Max has PLENTY to bitch about, doesn't he? But he moves forward despite his apparent "disadvantage."
There can be much said about oppressor and oppressed. I've found though my dealings with people that most manage to find ways to oppress themselves.
Those cases of legitimate oppression exist. But I have seen far more examples of self-oppression.
My wife is hotter than your wife.
Disagree right back at ya.
You always have a choice.
The words I quoted previously (to which you first replied) are so important in so many areas. If I've learned anything in life, it's that even when I shouldn't have to, I must let go of such resentments in order to move forward. "Living well is the best revenge."
When such resentments rise, I decide not to allow them to get the best of me. What good would that do? Certainly those whom I might have otherwise resented don't give a shit. And nothing would change by me being resentful. I would simply be angry. And who wants to live like that?
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