Racism & Obama's Speech on March 18th, 2008

[lawrocket 3]

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In the US today, those who aren't white males start at least a half step behind - due to cultural expectations, lower quality of education and lower quality or lack of medical care, amongst other things.

This is a perception. And "perceptions" are reality.

We are facing, actually, a generational divide. Those of my parents' generation saw the injustice, etc., in American society and fought to change that.

Those of my generation and of the younger generations don't perceive this sort of thing anywhere near the same extent. For example, there are more women than men in college. This differs from even 20 years ago.

Yet, the perceptions of yesterday dwell within those who lived it to this very day. This is entirely understandable and reasonable. The experiences one faces in the past help make up what becomes a person's subjective perceptions of the present.

I think Obama hit on that quite well. He was able to comment on the perceptions of everyone out there and say that their perceptions should be taken seriously. They've got points, but everybody should put themselves in the shoes of others to better understand it.

Obama may never be able to get people to look past the issue with the preacher or accept his explanation. I do.

However, the biggest problem he now faces is that, finally, he has managed to ba painted as a black candidate. He has worked hard to keep race out of it. The race baiting finally took hold. He had no choice in it.

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[wmw999 2,589]

Do some reading on liberation theology and black liberation theology. They appeal to people who are marginalized and dispossessed. Having enough disposable income means I'm pretty unlikely to be either marginalized or dispossessed, but neither do I think that their problems are all in their head, or due entirely to their unworthiness.

I absolutely don't think Obama is a racist. I don't think that acknowledging that racism still exists is racist. And I don't think that listening to someone I disagree with on a regular basis is racist. Really. Just as I don't think that liberation theology really wants to take from the rich and give to the poor.

Sometimes looking at the world through a lens that you don't find to be natural is a good way to get some perspective.

Wendy W.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[PLFXpert 0]

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It's mighty hard to let go of resentment when what it springs from is the institutionalization of whichever

It's not the "letting go" that's hard, rather it's the decision to.

Paint me in a corner, but my color comes back.

[lawrocket 3]

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My point is not that anyone who follows Obama has White Guilt. It's that anyone who can't see a severe problem with a candidate who subscribes to a church with such racist views DOES.

Is that not the same as saying, "If it is in the forest it must be a tree?"

I count as my best friends people who still like to use recreational drugs. I personally have never used them. Does that make me a stoner?

I chose, and still choose when I am in town, to hang out with these very people, not because I am an advocate of drug use, but because of the other things they bring to my life. The benefits of their friendship and guidance on many issues, both professional and personal, is a wonderful thing to me.

Who here does not have a friend or associate who has NOT done something that they abhor? We all do, and just because I worked for someone who was a philanderer did not make me a philanderer myself.

Calling people out for the imperfections of their friends and associates - and even personal advisors - is ludicrous.

We ALL have friends and advisors with whom we disagree on many fronts. But it does not mean that we ratify their conduct or statements. Quite the contrary. Obama put my personal feelings on the topic into words.

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[skydyvr 0]

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Do some reading on liberation theology and black liberation theology. They appeal to people who are marginalized and dispossessed. Having enough disposable income means I'm pretty unlikely to be either marginalized or dispossessed, but neither do I think that their problems are all in their head, or due entirely to their unworthiness.

I read the links, and am already familiar with the concepts. Thanks. I also realize that the problems are not "all in their head", though a significant portion IS, as evidenced by Wright.

I believe Wright's brand of thinking is dated and needs to go away; needs to be on track for exit right along with Black Entertainment Television. Not that it never had a place or time, but it's counterproductive anymore. Blacks have won enough of the battle in our nation now to come up to speed if lagging sectors of them will turn the magnifying glass inward. And many ARE coming up to speed. I personally work with numerous examples. We DO need to continue to focus on the disadvantages still inherent in our culture, which is why EEO type laws still need to be here for a while longer, but we as a nation are now beyond the need for "liberation", most certainly including pastors who rail on against the white man.

I attend an interracial church. The pastor there doesn't rail against whites or blacks, he just preaches the gospel. It's an environment that's achieved the ideal described by skybitch earlier in the thread - real color blindness. "Black" churches don't effectively promote that goal. We're reaching a point where anything that has racially defined attributes is counterproductive in most arenas.

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I absolutely don't think Obama is a racist.

I'll modify my assertion to reflect that Obama subscribes to a church which is off the mark and lagging in it's ideas and methods, if the goal is truly racial equality. That doesn't make him a racist, it just makes him a person who's subscribed to a solution to race problems which I find dated and ineffective. That tells me much.

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[billvon 3,120]

>Listening to one McCain speech is different than saying to your wife, "I
>really like the message that's coming out of that preacher's mouth."

Yes.

And calling someone a gook, or a nigger, or a towelhead is different than listening to other people say racist things.

[billvon 3,120]

>Unfortunately the content of the speech will likely be reduced to sound bites . . .

That happens with every political speech out there, but I think it might happen a little less with this one. It's a controversial subject, so it is more likely to be listened to even by detractors, if for no other reason than to find a denigrating sound bite to play on their radio show.

And that's a very good thing. I think some blacks really need to hear that "white anger" isn't the result of baseless racism. Some young whites need to better understand what sort of environment older black people grew up in, and how that changes their worldview. Both sides need to stop seeing race as an excuse, or a thing to bait people with, or a reason they failed.

Will it really change anything? Nope. But, as it's done here, it might get a few more people to think about the issue - and that, someday, might change things.

[wmw999 2,589]

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I'll modify my assertion to reflect that Obama subscribes to a church which is off the mark and lagging in it's ideas and methods, if the goal is truly racial equality. That doesn't make him a racist, it just makes him a person who's subscribed to a solution to race problems which I find dated and ineffective. That tells me much.

Now that's eloquent. Really.

I do think that a lot of people hold one lens up first to see things; whether it's the race lens, the gender lens, the political party lens, the gun rights lens, abortion lens -- you get the picture. The problem with all those lenses is that they promote a one-sided view of complex issues. It's possible to fail to react quickly enough if you spend all of your time trying to be as fair as possible, but I think that generally the time spent in a little reflection is saved downstream in not having to spend so much time expostulating.

Wendy W.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[skydyvr 0]

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I count as my best friends people who still like to use recreational drugs. I personally have never used them. Does that make me a stoner?

No, but if your friends made continuous attempts to persuade you into using drugs, "preached" you into it, would you not be an idiot for hanging around and putting up with it? But you're no idiot or masochist -- you'd hit the road and find new friends.

But friends, associates, and colleagues are NOT comparable to pastors. They are spritual teachers, and if you attend their church, you are at the very least in ostensible agreement with their perspectives. As I wrote to Wendy, I believe Wright's perspectives are counterproductive in this day.

As I think through this, I am arriving at the conclusion that simply subscribing to "black liberation" concepts is not necessarily a show stopper for me. What is, is the possibilty that Obama COULD be as much a racist asshole as his pastor, and just hiding it. Of course, we have no way to look into his heart, so we don't know, and the notion of that possibility persists with me.

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[idrankwhat 0]

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Both sides need to stop seeing race as an excuse, or a thing to bait people with, or a reason they failed.

I hope that day comes sooner than later. But it will indeed come, if not out of enlightenment then will come out of demography.
Basically, Whitey will be in the minority in 50 years. My kids are a great example. They're 1/4 Italian, 1/4 Filipino and only half Honkey

[idrankwhat 0]

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No, but if your friends made continuous attempts to persuade you into using drugs, "preached" you into it, would you not be an idiot for hanging around and putting up with it?

It makes me wonder, if you clipped all of the offensive sound bites together, what percentage would they represent out of 20 year's worth of sermons?

[wmw999 2,589]

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But friends, associates, and colleagues are NOT comparable to pastors. They are spritual teachers, and if you attend their church, you are at the very least in ostensible agreement with their perspectives.

I can completely understand where you come from here, but I'll disagree on the thought that a pastor can be valid if they have significant moral failings. Personal experience.

The pastor of my church was a philanderer; ended up marrying one of the parishioners. He was (and would still be) probably the best pastor I've ever listened to for the purpose of reflecting on what it means to be a Christian, a human being, and a good person. I came out of services with insights every single time, and could divorce those from the person.

Others in the congregation couldn't continue to attend with him as the pastor. It ended up tearing the church apart. In fact, last month we just formally closed it with both denominations; it no longer exists. Neither the people who couldn't accept him nor I are wrong. We're just different. We need different things from ministers. To me, a guide doesn't have to be able to go the way I want to, just as a coach doesn't have to be a better basketball player. But they should know the moves, and be able to help me make them for myself. Others learn those skills by example, and require demonstration.

We're all different.

This was way too long, but, well, it hurt to close that church.

Wendy W.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[skydyvr 0]

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The problem with all those lenses is that they promote a one-sided view of complex issues.

Absolutely. I had a conversation with a Lady on here recently about gender discrimination in the workplace. My take was that it's minimal these days. Her take was that it's prevalent, even though we work in similar environments. I stopped short on pressing the argument when I realized we look through different lenses, as you say, and her perspective probably had more value than mine, since she is the one who's actually subjected to the discrimination.

That applies to the race issue too, I know, and I'm trying to look through other lenses as much as possible. And I think my white youth spent in Hawaii helps me do that just a little.

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[wmw999 2,589]

A number (mumblemumble) of years ago, I was listening to three of the guys in my systems programmer group chitchat. We all had a single beeper that we passed around in 2-week increments for night time support.

All three of them were african american, and over 25 (which meant they'd sold their college cars, and had bought something sportier). They were talking about how when it was their turn to wear the beeper, that when they were stopped by the police for whatever, as soon as the police caught sight of the beeper, they'd be told to exit the car, put their hands on the roof or hood, and patted down. Often with a gun drawn by the other office.

As a white woman of (mumblemumble) age, I hadn't been stopped for anything but egregious speeding in at least 10 years. And I damn sure hadn't ever been told to exit the car and treated like a criminal.

My experience wasn't theirs. As a woman of (yes, mumblemumbe) years, I got preferential treatment, and didn't even remark on it, because it was "normal" to me. And to them, getting stopped frequently wasn't really that abnormal. But you'd be hard-pressed to tell any of them that being black is the same as being white.

Oh -- and I'm actually 53, not (mumblemumble)

Wendy W.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[PLFXpert 0]

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The pastor of my church was a philanderer

The question is about race-related discrepancies, not sexual improprieties.

It seems w/r/t the latter, most people here subscribe to the notion, "We don't care what goes on in the bedroom, it's how he/she runs their office."

The former, however, appears to apply more to how one might run their office.

Paint me in a corner, but my color comes back.

[jcd11235 0]

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I'm trying to look through other lenses as much as possible. And I think my white youth spent in Hawaii helps me do that just a little.

Climate aside, one of the things I miss most about living in Hawaii is how everyone was a minority. Before I first went over there, I was warned about how the native Hawaiians hated whites, how the Japanese hated whites, etc. My experience was that race had little to do with how I was treated. If I was respectful, I was treated respectfully, regardless of the race of the person I was interacting with.

Since then, I've found that to be generally true with everyone, everywhere, regardless of the person's race, religion or political ideology.

Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials!

[warpedskydiver 0]

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Ya know.. with all the proclaimed Libertarians and independents around here you would think that no republican would ever have a chance at any office.. yet so many of them seem to always voice the FAUX NEWS/Republican Party line.

Want to know what the days topics on DIZZY DOT COM are going to be tomorrow... Listen to right wing hate radio today.. and you will have tomorrows talking points.. spot on.

That just shows you how bad of a choice the democratic candidate is when liberatarians and independants as well as moderate republicans/conservatives will vote for the republican that is being offered to us.

[skydyvr 0]

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It makes me wonder, if you clipped all of the offensive sound bites together, what percentage would they represent out of 20 year's worth of sermons?

Would be very interested to know that too. Maybe Wright spent 95% of his time just preaching the gospel, maybe not.

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[piper17 1]

Obama is being a bit of a hypocrite when it comes to the reverend Wright. He goes to this man's church for twenty years, gets married in the church, has his kids baptised in the church and excuses what the good minister say.

But, it was Obama who was one of those on MSNBC calling for Don Imus to be fired after making a stupid remark about the Rutger's women's basketball team (nappy headed 'hos).

How can he excuse the racist remarks from the minister over a period of twenty years but not excuse Imus' stupid remark?

"A man can never have too much red wine, too many books, or too much ammunition"...Rudyard Kipling

[SpeedRacer 1]

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Ya know.. with all the proclaimed Libertarians and independents around here you would think that no republican would ever have a chance at any office.. yet so many of them seem to always voice the FAUX NEWS/Republican Party line.

Want to know what the days topics on DIZZY DOT COM are going to be tomorrow... Listen to right wing hate radio today.. and you will have tomorrows talking points.. spot on.

That just shows you how bad of a choice the democratic candidate is when liberatarians and independants as well as moderate republicans/conservatives will vote for the republican that is being offered to us.

not all of them will. Some libertarians prefer Obama to McCain. Not too many seem to like Clinton though.

Speed Racer
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[idrankwhat 0]

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It makes me wonder, if you clipped all of the offensive sound bites together, what percentage would they represent out of 20 year's worth of sermons?

Would be very interested to know that too. Maybe Wright spent 95% of his time just preaching the gospel, maybe not.

My guess would put it closer to 99% but it doesn't really matter much to me. I care as much about 1% of his sermons as I care about the other 99%. What I DO care about is that our Democracy seems to be overly influenced by a Theocratic litmus test.

[SpeedRacer 1]

http://www.salon.com/opinion/greenwald/2008/03/17/wright/index.html Article about the Double standard when it comes to anti-American statements from supporters of Democrats vs Republicans.


Update from the article

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Frank Schaeffer, son of highly influential Religious Right figure Francis Schaeffer, writes (h/t FPL-Dan):

When Senator Obama's preacher thundered about racism and injustice Obama suffered smear-by-association. But when my late father -- Religious Right leader Francis Schaeffer -- denounced America and even called for the violent overthrow of the US government, he was invited to lunch with presidents Ford, Reagan and Bush, Sr.
He goes on to chronicle his father's long history of extreme "America-hating" statements, ones which never caused Republicans to repudiate him, and says: "Every Sunday thousands of right wing white preachers (following in my father's footsteps) rail against America's sins from tens of thousands of pulpits."

Yet Schaeffer, like hordes of similar, America-hating white Christian ministers, are celebrated as cherished figures among the very same right-wing faction feigning such outrage and offense over Wright's far more mild statements. White, right-wing Christian evangelical rage against America is understandable, respectable, and noble. Liberal black Christian anger towards America is scary, subversive, and despicable.

Speed Racer
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[skydyvr 0]

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Since then, I've found that to be generally true with everyone, everywhere, regardless of the person's race, religion or political ideology.

Generally more true now hopefully. I was in high school. There were 10-12 whites in the school, the rest mostly Hawaiins. It was a loonnnng time ago (mumblemumble), and it was rough.

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[skydyvr 0]

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How can he excuse the racist remarks from the minister over a period of twenty years but not excuse Imus' stupid remark?

Total hypocrisy, that. Obama's rationale might be that Wright is a fighter for social change, while Imus is a fighter for nothing but laughs. Who knows.

You could claim Obama's a bigot, but then he'd have to hate half of himself.

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[idrankwhat 0]

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http://www.salon.com/opinion/greenwald/2008/03/17/wright/index.html Article about the Double standard when it comes to anti-American statements from supporters of Democrats vs Republicans.

That was pretty good.