Do you think that Genetic Memory exists?

[jakee 1,596]

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How would you explain the fact that William McDougall observed that if you train rats to solve a maze, it takes them 165 times on average to learn--but after a few generations, their descendants take only 20 times to learn?

Also I recall reading--so far haven't been able to find the reference--that rats in Europe were trained to run a maze, and then rats in America--with no contact with the European rats--were able to solve the same maze much faster.

Here's the link:

rats learn behavior from across the world

If you can link to an actual journal article, or any non-second-hand-hearsay information then I'll think about it.

Until then, there's nothing to explain.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[billvon 3,120]

> This is also known as the "hundredth monkey effect", which is
>also complete and utter horse crap.

It's actually not. The phenomenon is an interesting study in cultural learning, and has important implications for things like advertising and public health.

[quade 4]

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> This is also known as the "hundredth monkey effect", which is
>also complete and utter horse crap.

It's actually not. The phenomenon is an interesting study in cultural learning, and has important implications for things like advertising and public health.

Bah. You're drawing conclusions based on creatures that actually can communicate at a distance via language.

There is absolutely no evidence whatsoever that there is any sort of collective unconscious that widely disseminates information such as proposed in the original theory.

More.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[skydyvr 0]

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There is absolutely no evidence whatsoever that there is any sort of collective unconscious that widely disseminates information such as proposed in the original theory.

The how do you explain The Secret?

. . =(_8^(1)

[quade 4]

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The how do you explain The Secret?

The same way I explain the mess left on the ground after a horse walks by. When asked about it, I call it what it is; horse crap.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[skydyvr 0]

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The how do you explain The Secret?

The same way I explain the mess left on the ground after a horse walks by. When asked about it, I call it what it is; horse crap.

I watched The Secret video and wished for my 90 minutes back. The wish went unfulfilled.

. . =(_8^(1)

[billvon 3,120]

>There is absolutely no evidence whatsoever that there is any sort
>of collective unconscious that widely disseminates information such as
>proposed in the original theory.

I think there might be some confusion in the various monkey theories here!

The original experiment, carried out by Japanese researchers, showed that there was a given useful meme (in this case, sweet potato washing by macaques on islands) that spread more quickly once it passed a certain 'critical mass' of usage. It was not spread by any paranormal phenomena; indeed, it spread from island to island mainly because macaques can swim. It was primarily of interest because it demonstrated that the spread of a new idea was related to its popularity. This is not that startling a conclusion, although it was interesting to see it in a non-human culture.

Since then, various paranormal types have claimed a) more to the experiment than there originally was and b) given paranormal explanations to how that meme spread. The study took years, and showed a gradual and then more rapid spread of the meme. In Lyall Watson's version of it, the spread was instantaneous, and was caused by "morphic fields."

[quade 4]

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I think there might be some confusion in the various monkey theories here!

Undoubtedly. However even the original observation (not experiment) was questioned heavily and the term "hundredth monkey effect" now clearly carries the connotation of the "collective unconscious" version of the story much in the same way that the phrase "Area 51" now can not be separated from the connection with UFOs.

Sadly, I know a little too much about both.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[georgerussia 0]

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So these folks that 'remember' past lives? Real or imagined?

Depends on how good the weed was :)

* Don't pray for me if you wanna help - just send me a check. *

[PLFXpert 0]

Paint me in a corner, but my color comes back.

[crozby 0]

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Close. Some people had some natural resistance to the disease when it began. After a few decades, they were the only ones (genetically) left.

There may be more to it than just that though - the state of the individuals at the time of the creation of the egg and sperm has an effect on the offspring they produce. Google "Epigenetics famine" for a classic example of this.

[jenfly00 0]

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>Is instinct really Genetic Memory?

Yes. Very basic instincts - fear of heights, fear of certain animals, desire to copulate, avoidance of pain, fear of death/decay/disease are instincts that are, if you will, programmed into us. We're usually able to overcome them if needed though, which is a learned response.

>If it is, then could other information be passed from generation to
>generation? Could this be what some people describe as thoughts of being
>another (often long since dead) person?

In a way, yes. If you look at a woman and feel lust, you can be pretty sure your father felt something similar. But "The Professor did it in the conservatory with the candlestick, I remember now!" - not really. The only memories that can be passed on are those that are encoded in DNA, and ordinary memories do not code the DNA in our gametes.

So, each nesting bird works out on their own that they should build a nest and figure out how, when and where to do it?

The exacting geometry of honeycombs comes from the trial and error of each bee generation ...perhaps a comb building commitee?

Each male three spined spickle backed fish decides, individually and independently, to build a little cave in the mud and then performs an elaborate 'dance' to drive the female into the opening?

All animals perform actions (some from the moment of birth), without outside instruction, that promote their survival. Instinct? What is instinct but a form of genetically passed information/memory.

-----------------------
"O brave new world that has such people in it".

[Squeak 17]

You and bill are firgin funny as all hell, you make statements of certainty, which are complete crap.
But it is entertaining

You are not now, nor will you ever be, good enough to not die in this sport (Sparky)
My Life ROCKS!
How's yours doing?

[philh 0]

From our current understanding memory is most liekly stored in the brain (probably the hippocampus and amygdala ) and not written into the genes,therefore there is no plausibal mechanism for memory to be passed on between generations.

[Squeak 17]

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From our current understanding memory is most liekly stored in the brain (probably the hippocampus and amygdala ) and not written into the genes,therefore there is no plausibal mechanism for memory to be passed on between generations.

there are a few schools of contetion in relation to that

You are not now, nor will you ever be, good enough to not die in this sport (Sparky)
My Life ROCKS!
How's yours doing?

[shropshire 0]

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From our current understanding memory is most liekly stored in the brain (probably the hippocampus and amygdala ) and not written into the genes,therefore there is no plausibal mechanism for memory to be passed on between generations.

Then how would one explain instinct, Phil?

(.)Y(.)
Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome

[pirana 0]

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If it does exist, then why don't we all remember our parents (and grandparents etc..) early memories. What would be the point of such a phenomena?

That is stored in the brain, not the genes.

" . . . the lust for power can be just as completely satisfied by suggesting people into loving their servitude as by flogging them and kicking them into obedience." -- Aldous Huxley

[shropshire 0]

I'm sure that you're right and that the "Earlier Life" folks are.... um.... misguided.

But how did nature decide which parts of memory/programming would be stored in the genes. Presumably, at some stage that was in the memory of the early creatues that found them sucessful and thus survived.

(.)Y(.)
Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome

[quade 4]

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You and bill are firgin funny as all hell, you make statements of certainty, which are complete crap.
But it is entertaining

Show me credible evidence to the contrary and I'll point you in the direction so you can win yourself $1,000,000.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[billvon 3,120]

>So, each nesting bird works out on their own that they should build a
>nest and figure out how, when and where to do it?

Nope. Those behaviors are often programmed into them, just as some behaviors (fear of falling, the fight/flight response) are programmed into us. Since we get a survival benefit from being able to learn new responses (and unlearn old responses) we have very few programmed responses compared to, say, a bee.

For a longer explanation, see the post you replied to.

[pirana 0]

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Only at the most basic level; to breathe, to eat, to fear heights, to fear loud noises . . . only the most basic of coding allowed by the very limited amount of bandwidth not being taken up by things like; how to make a eye, how to make an ear . . .

Anything more complex simply doesn't fit in the space available.

I think the only thing coded in the genes is to be. The instructions to connect parts, flap A in slot B, and so forth. To create the organism within certain parameters - - which when violated we call mutations. There are also certain predispositions to behaviors that are a side effect of the chemical/biological processes engaged in to build a living creature; but there is no purpose or intent involved.

The complex part is intent and desire; which tissues themselves don't have and don't need. Coding for tissues that breathe is relatively simple compared to the lengths that would be needed to explain why breathing is important, and why the tissue needs to be a certain way to allow the task to be performed. The genetic code contains none of that. It just has directions to build tissues in certain oders and in certain ways.

The genes are coded for tissue building, the tissues get built, and the organism breathes; without the physical tissues having any sentient knowledge of having done so - - until the brain kicks in.

Then we start down the path of asking why and end up inquiring about our own existence. Up until recently, thought to be strictly a human trait. Recent work has shown this probably not to be true.

I think it is very telling that it took humans so long to get over their bias of being convinced they were the only sentient creatures on this planet.

(Fears like falling, loud noises, etc; easily learned in the womb. Newborns do not fear heights until they learn to connect the visual cue of being at height to the sensations of falling and subsequent impact).

" . . . the lust for power can be just as completely satisfied by suggesting people into loving their servitude as by flogging them and kicking them into obedience." -- Aldous Huxley

[pirana 0]

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But how did nature decide which parts of memory/programming would be stored in the genes. Presumably, at some stage that was in the memory of the early creatues that found them sucessful and thus survived.

What is coded in the genes either survives or does not. It either successfully fills a niche in the natural world or it perishes. There is no decision. You may not have meant it that way (the word decision implying a choice made out of intent), but that is a point a lot of people get hung up on when discussing genetics - - that a certain sequence wants to survive or that a decision is made to go a certain way in order to survive. It's just chemical/bilogical processes that either increase or decrease chances of survival (and of course then being passed on or not).

Cruel and cold world - - until the brain kicks in.

" . . . the lust for power can be just as completely satisfied by suggesting people into loving their servitude as by flogging them and kicking them into obedience." -- Aldous Huxley

[jakee 1,596]

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But how did nature decide which parts of memory/programming would be stored in the genes.

Natural selection, just like everything else. It's not a case of one animal encoding an actual memory into it's genes which is then passed on to its offspring - it is animals having a propensity towards certain types of behaviour being more likely to survive than ones that don't. For instance (massive simplification), wild cats that instintively like to stalk mice and birds are more likely to survive than wild cats that don't.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[pirana 0]

I've mentioned it before in other threads, but it's worth it again, just because it is such a really, really, really, good read.

Genome, but I can't remember the author.

" . . . the lust for power can be just as completely satisfied by suggesting people into loving their servitude as by flogging them and kicking them into obedience." -- Aldous Huxley

[Lindsey 0]

http://www.amazon.com/Genome-Autobiography-Species-Chapters-P-S/dp/0060894083/ref=pd_bbs_2?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1205861942&

--
A conservative is just a liberal who's been mugged. A liberal is just a conservative who's been to jail