Which do you agree with regarding terrorist attacks?

[jcd11235 0]

Quote

Your analogy is bogus for the following reason. The U.S. doesn't have scores of religious and educational institutions that celebrate McVeigh, Kaczynski and their underlying philosophy. In the Middle East, by contrast, there are a great many mosques and madrassas that do just that for their extremists. Their extremism is much more integrated into the overall culture than ours.

Actually we do. But here, like over there, "scores of religious and educational institutions" are still a tiny minority.

Perhaps you've not heard of the Christian Identity movement?

The Christian Identity movement is a movement of many extremely conservative Christian churches and religious organizations, extreme right wing political groups and survival groups. Some are independent; others are loosely interconnected. According to Professor Michael Barkun, one of the leading experts in the Christian Identity movement, "This virulent racist and anti-Semitic theology, which is practiced by over 50,000 people in the United States alone, is prevalent among many right wing extremist groups and has been called the 'glue' of the racist right."

From the FBI's Project Megiddo:

Christian Identity is an ideology which asserts that the white Aryan race is God’s chosen race and that whites comprise the ten lost tribes of Israel. [19] There is no single document that expresses this belief system. Adherents refer to the Bible to justify their racist ideals. Interpreting the Book of Genesis, Christian Identity followers assert that Adam was preceded by other, lesser races, identified as “the beasts of the field” (Gen. 1:25). Eve was seduced by the snake (Satan) and gave birth to two seed lines: Cain, the direct descendent of Satan and Eve, and Able, who was of good Aryan stock through Adam. Cain then became the progenitor of the Jews in his subsequent matings with the non-Adamic races. Christian Identity adherents believe the Jews are predisposed to carry on a conspiracy against the Adamic seed line and today have achieved almost complete control of the earth. [20] This is referred to as the two-seedline doctrine, which provides Christian Identity followers with a biblical justification for hatred.
…
The radical right encompasses a vast number and variety of groups, such as survivalists, militias, the Ku Klux Klan, neo-Nazis, Christian Identity churches, the AN and skinheads. These groups are not mutually exclusive and within the subculture individuals easily migrate from one group to another. This intermixing of organizations makes it difficult to discern a singular religious ideology or belief system that encompasses the right-wing.

Nevertheless, Christian Identity is the most unifying theology for a number of these diverse groups and one widely adhered to by white supremacists. It is a belief system that provides its members with a religious basis for racism and an ideology that condones violence against non-Aryans. This doctrine allows believers to fuse religion with hate, conspiracy theories, and apocalyptic fear of the future. Christian Identity-inspired millennialism has a distinctly racist tinge in the belief that Armageddon will be a race war of Aryans against Jews and nonwhites.

It's not difficult to find support for individual domestic terrorists whose actions were religiously motivated.

From the June 2, 2003 New York Times:

Betty Howard made many people happy today, and it was not for her daily special. Around noon, Mrs. Howard walked outside, glanced up at the sign in front of her diner and decided to change the lettering on the marquee from ''Roast Turkey Baked Ham'' to ''Pray for Eric Rudolph.''

''Bless his heart,'' Mrs. Howard said. ''Eric needs our help.''

Mrs. Howard said she was going to start an Eric Rudolph legal defense fund. Many customers have already said they would chip in.

See picture of sign.

From The Southern Poverty Law Center:

Rudolph, the alleged bomber of abortion clinics, a gay bar and the 1996 Atlanta Olympics, may have had some help. As revealed five years ago by the Southern Poverty Law Center, Rudolph had ties to the anti-Semitic theology of Christian Identity, a faith with adherents in the North Carolina mountains and elsewhere.

When he took a large supply of food from a local health food owner, it took the man two days to report to the authorities his encounter with one of the most wanted fugitives in U.S. history. Officials suspect that other locals may have left food or clothing out for Rudolph. Plainly, there was much regional sympathy for Rudolph's violent opposition to abortion.
…
Eric Rudolph did have support of another kind — moral support, from the radical right that saw him as an Aryan hero, the many locals who strongly oppose abortion, and his own mother, who played a key role in introducing him to Christian Identity leaders in North Carolina and Missouri.

As much as he may have been a loner, Eric Rudolph was not alone. He was acquainted with people who had similar beliefs, and he adopted many of them. Some have suggested that Rudolph's ideology was merely a "smoke screen" for his "real" motives — a desire to taunt the police or anger at the outlawing of laetrile, a bogus cancer treatment sought by Rudolph's dying father. But the evidence clearly points to the fact that he was a true believer.

From Extremist Chatter Praises Eric Rudolph As Hero

"What some hatemongers and extremists are saying is, this person is a hero whose crusade against abortion and the government is noble and praiseworthy," said Abraham H. Foxman, ADL National Director. "What is even more troubling is that some of the chatter is calling for violence or lone-wolf acts to be carried out in Rudolph's name. Others are using the arrest as an excuse to spread twisted conspiracy theories about Jews. As we have seen in the past, this can be a dangerous mix."

America has her share of extremists, and those who support them. They're not a majority, by any stretch of the imagination, but they do make up substantial numbers, nonetheless. Some of those supporters even have their own supporters:

"My only regret with Timothy McVeigh is he did not go to the New York Times Building." -Ann Coulter

Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials!

[billvon 3,111]

>The U.S. doesn't have scores of religious and educational institutions
>that celebrate McVeigh, Kaczynski and their underlying philosophy.

Fourteen US states have a "Confederate Heroes" day. There are dozens of "Robert E. Lee" schools and colleges. People paint their cars with the confederate flag, fly it on their homes and campaign to allow it to be flown on government buildings.

The Confederacy killed well over 100,000 Union soldiers during the Civil war. They would routinely capture and execute Union soldiers when they could. And the South celebrates them.

[likearock 2]

Quote

>The U.S. doesn't have scores of religious and educational institutions
>that celebrate McVeigh, Kaczynski and their underlying philosophy.

Fourteen US states have a "Confederate Heroes" day. There are dozens of "Robert E. Lee" schools and colleges. People paint their cars with the confederate flag, fly it on their homes and campaign to allow it to be flown on government buildings.

The Confederacy killed well over 100,000 Union soldiers during the Civil war. They would routinely capture and execute Union soldiers when they could. And the South celebrates them.

?? And Union soldiers didn't do the same with Confederate soldiers?

Really quite a stretch to equating the Confederacy with Islamic extremists who deliberately target innocent civilians.

[warpedskydiver 0]

Quote

>The U.S. doesn't have scores of religious and educational institutions
>that celebrate McVeigh, Kaczynski and their underlying philosophy.

Fourteen US states have a "Confederate Heroes" day. There are dozens of "Robert E. Lee" schools and colleges. People paint their cars with the confederate flag, fly it on their homes and campaign to allow it to be flown on government buildings.

The Confederacy killed well over 100,000 Union soldiers during the Civil war. They would routinely capture and execute Union soldiers when they could. And the South celebrates them.

Bill, you missed one point, the US Military and Government still hold some southern heroes in high regard

I think there is a tiny scrap of land in Georgia somewhere that actually still bears one of their names.

Ft. Benning Georgia.

[likearock 2]

Quote

Quote

Your analogy is bogus for the following reason. The U.S. doesn't have scores of religious and educational institutions that celebrate McVeigh, Kaczynski and their underlying philosophy. In the Middle East, by contrast, there are a great many mosques and madrassas that do just that for their extremists. Their extremism is much more integrated into the overall culture than ours.

Actually we do. But here, like over there, "scores of religious and educational institutions" are still a tiny minority.

Yeah, right. All those Wahhabi madrassas in Saudi Arabia preaching jihad are just a drop in the bucket.

[billvon 3,111]

>Really quite a stretch to equating the Confederacy with Islamic
>extremists who deliberately target innocent civilians.

Just as it's quite a stretch to say that killing 100,000 isn't as bad as killing 3000.

As I suspected, the fact that we celebrate what are essentially traitors, criminals who killed a lot of US military (and a lot of innocent people) is described as COMPLETELY DIFFERENT than what goes on over there. Why? Because they're _our_ heroes.

[likearock 2]

Quote

>Really quite a stretch to equating the Confederacy with Islamic
>extremists who deliberately target innocent civilians.

Just as it's quite a stretch to say that killing 100,000 isn't as bad as killing 3000.

As I suspected, the fact that we celebrate what are essentially traitors, criminals who killed a lot of US military (and a lot of innocent people) is described as COMPLETELY DIFFERENT than what goes on over there. Why? Because they're _our_ heroes.

By that logic, you would have us condemn the Allied forces during WW II, who killed quite a deal more than 100,000.

[jcd11235 0]

Quote

All those Wahhabi madrassas in Saudi Arabia preaching jihad are just a drop in the bucket.

Do you have evidence that would indicate otherwise, especially considering that Saudi Arabia is but one Middle Eastern nation?

Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials!

[Amazon 7]

Quote

How about right here

http://www.jfednepa.org/mark%20silverberg/wahhabi.html

Reza F. Safa, author of Inside Islam, estimates that since 1973, the Saudi government has spent an unbelievable $87B to promote Wahhabism in the United States, Africa, Southeast Asia and Europe. According to official Saudi information, Saudi funds have been used to build and maintain over 1,500 mosques, 202 colleges, 210 Islamic Centers wholly or partly financed by Saudi Arabia, and almost 2,000 schools for educating Muslim children in non-Islamic countries in Europe, North and South America, Australia and Asia.

The Kingdom has fully or partially financed Islamic Centers in Los Angeles; San Francisco; Fresno; Chicago; New York; Washington; Tucson; Raleigh, N.C. and Toledo, Ohio as well as in Austria, Great Britain, France, Spain, Italy, Germany, Russia, Turkey, and even in some Muslim countries such as Morocco, Indonesia, Malaysia and Djibuti.



http://www.mideastmonitor.org/issues/0705/0705_2.htm

Nevertheless, Wahhabi penetration of US mainstream Islamic institutions is substantial. A 2005 Freedom House Report examined over 200 books and other publications distributed in 15 prominent Saudi-funded American mosques. One such publication, bearing the imprint of the Saudi embassy and distributed by the King Fahd Mosque in Los Angeles, contained the following injunctions for Muslims living in America:



Be dissociated from the infidels, hate them for their religion, leave them, never rely on them for support, do not admire them, and always oppose them in every way according to Islamic law.

[W]hoever helps unbelievers against Muslims, regardless of what type of support he lends to them, he is an unbeliever himself.

Never greet the Christian or Jew first. Never congratulate the infidel on his holiday. Never befriend an infidel unless it is to convert him. Never imitate the infidel. Never work for an infidel. Do not wear a graduation gown because this imitates the infidel.[23]

[warpedskydiver 0]

Quote

Quote

How about right here

http://www.jfednepa.org/mark%20silverberg/wahhabi.html

Reza F. Safa, author of Inside Islam, estimates that since 1973, the Saudi government has spent an unbelievable $87B to promote Wahhabism in the United States, Africa, Southeast Asia and Europe. According to official Saudi information, Saudi funds have been used to build and maintain over 1,500 mosques, 202 colleges, 210 Islamic Centers wholly or partly financed by Saudi Arabia, and almost 2,000 schools for educating Muslim children in non-Islamic countries in Europe, North and South America, Australia and Asia.

The Kingdom has fully or partially financed Islamic Centers in Los Angeles; San Francisco; Fresno; Chicago; New York; Washington; Tucson; Raleigh, N.C. and Toledo, Ohio as well as in Austria, Great Britain, France, Spain, Italy, Germany, Russia, Turkey, and even in some Muslim countries such as Morocco, Indonesia, Malaysia and Djibuti.

Say in aint so

[jcd11235 0]

Quote

Quote

How about right here

http://www.jfednepa.org/mark%20silverberg/wahhabi.html

Sorry, but that's not evidence indicating majority of their population Muslim extremists. It also fails to address the rest of the Middle East, only Saudi Arabia.

We have lots of Christian extremists in the US, but that doesn't make them the majority of our population.

Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials!

[Amazon 7]

I say we look to our real enemy... within.. before we go looking for more of them... without.

[likearock 2]

Quote

Quote

Quote

How about right here

http://www.jfednepa.org/mark%20silverberg/wahhabi.html

Sorry, but that's not evidence indicating majority of their population Muslim extremists. It also fails to address the rest of the Middle East, only Saudi Arabia.

Pakistan is just as bad.

[jcd11235 0]

Quote

Pakistan is just as bad.

As indicated by the civil unrest caused by the assassination of the opposition candidate? Or the defeat of Musharraf in the recent elections?

If there just as bad as Saudi Arabia, that would indicate that extremism does not make up the majority belief in either country.

Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials!

[likearock 2]

Quote

Quote

Pakistan is just as bad.

As indicated by the civil unrest caused by the assassination of the opposition candidate? Or the defeat of Musharraf in the recent elections?

If there just as bad as Saudi Arabia, that would indicate that extremism does not make up the majority belief in either country.

So you believe that Wahhabi madrassas are a fringe phenomenon in those two countries?

[jcd11235 0]

Quote

So you believe that Wahhabi madrassas are a fringe phenomenon in those two countries?

Extremism is, by definition, a fringe phenomenon. Still, we're talking about a region, not one or two specific countries.

Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials!

[likearock 2]

Quote

Quote

So you believe that Wahhabi madrassas are a fringe phenomenon in those two countries?

Extremism is, by definition, a fringe phenomenon. Still, we're talking about a region, not one or two specific countries.

No, extremism is not by definition a fringe phenomenon. The only thing it is by definition is extreme. There are many examples in history of nations that have been in the thrall of extremism. This is such a case:

Quote

Wahhabism formed the creed upon which the kingdom of Saudi Arabia was founded and is the dominant form of Islam found in Saudi Arabia and Qatar.

Quote

Its largess funded an estimated "90% of the expenses of the entire faith," throughout the Muslim world, according to journalist Dawood al-Shirian. It extended to young and old, from children's maddrassas to high level scholarship. "Books, scholarships, fellowships, mosques" (for example, "more than 1500 mosques were built from Saudi public funds over the last 50 years") were paid for. It rewarded journalists and academics who followed it; built satellite campuses around Egypt for Al Azhar, the oldest and very influential Islamic university.

The financial power of Wahhabism, according to observers like Dawood al-Shirian and Lee Kuan Yew, has done much to overwhelm less strict local interpretations of Islam and set the Saudi-interpretation as the "gold standard" of religion in many Muslims' minds.

That's a lot more than a "fringe" phenomenon.

[champu 1]

Quote

Quote

But I think saying that that's what organizations like Al-Qaeda, Jemaah Islamiyah, and Abu Sayyaf have set out to put an end to is giving them too much credit. I believe they've intentionally defined their goals such that they can't be met reasonably, and their resulting plan is carrying out what you can only describe as random attacks on the interests of states that have developed diplomatic or economic ties to peoples that they've grown to hate for other reasons.

I don't believe such organizations are representative of Middle Eastern culture, any more than the KKK, Timothy McVeigh or Ted Kaczynski are representative of American culture. If we blame the actions of extremism on an entire culture, we should not be surprised if we are judged the same illogical way.

I think we're in what is sometimes referred to as "violent agreement" regarding that point. My post was actually intended to disassociate the cultural concerns and goals of many non-western people (again, not just in the middle east) from the statements and actions of extremist groups (again, not just in the middle east) which generally have deeper roots in less noble power struggles and territorial disputes.

The discussion was started about whether or not they are only attacking us because we're over there. The answer, and ramifications of that answer, depend heavily on what you mean by those italicized words.

[georgerussia 0]

Quote

Russian women are getting educations too.

... and drive cars.
... and most would consider the closing worn by women in US - conservative :)

* Don't pray for me if you wanna help - just send me a check. *

[jcd11235 0]

Quote

No, extremism is not by definition a fringe phenomenon.

Extreme means far from normal.

Quote

Quote

Wahhabism formed the creed upon which the kingdom of Saudi Arabia was founded and is the dominant form of Islam found in Saudi Arabia and Qatar.

From your source:

The neutrality of this article is disputed.

About the only thing the editors seem to agree on is that the article is inaccurate. You should probably take the claims within with a grain of salt.

Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials!

• Quote

[jcd11235 0]

Quote

The discussion was started about whether or not they are only attacking us because we're over there. The answer, and ramifications of that answer, depend heavily on what you mean by those italicized words.

Agreed.

Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials!

[kelpdiver 2]

Quote

The Confederacy killed well over 100,000 Union soldiers during the Civil war. They would routinely capture and execute Union soldiers when they could. And the South celebrates them.

So the culture of the ME is on par with America 150 years ago? I guess that gives them another 60 or 70 years to allow alcohol too.

[nerdgirl 0]

Quote

Perhaps you've not heard of the Christian Identity movement?

The Christian Identity movement is a movement of many extremely conservative Christian churches and religious organizations, extreme right wing political groups and survival groups.

Another one to add to your list of ‘homegrown terrorists’:

William J. Krar of Tyler Texas, who pled guilty to possessing chemical weapons.

Krar was affiliated with right-wing, anti-government, white-supremacy groups. Among Krar’s seized weapons cache, in a Texas self-storage unit, were 2 homebuilt sodium cyanide (NaCN) munitions: combining 800 g sodium cyanide + strong oxidizing acids in old ammo box to generate cyanide gas (HCN) or cyanogen chloride (CNCl). Each improvised chemical device (“ICD”) would be (hypothetically) capable of killing almost 6,500 people via percutaneous exposure based on lethal dose for 50% of population (LD50), which for a variety of logistical reasons is an unlikely scenario; or kill 1/2 the people in a 9 x 40 x 40 ft^3 enclosure in one minute (inhalation).

Krar also had homemade landmines and a remote-controlled “briefcase device ready for explosive insertion,” i.e., IEDs; 67 pounds of Kinepak solid binary explosives (ammonium nitrate); 66 tubes of Kinepak binary liquid explosives (nitromethane); military detonators; trip wire; electric and non-electric blasting caps; and cases of atropine syringes (i.e., the antidote for nerve agent exposure (!)).

Krar was interdicted because he sent a package containing fake birth certificates (from multiple states), driver’s license, concealed weapons permit, a DoD DIA badge, and a UN badge -- all with the same picture & different names -- to the wrong address on Staten Island … along with a note: “Hope this package gets to you O.K., we would hate to have this fall into the wrong hands.” The inadvertent recipients opened the package and rather than forwarding it to another right-wing, anti-government, white-supremacy affiliate, New Jersey Militia member Edward Feltus, the folks called the police who called the FBI.

Krar eventually pled guilty to building and possessing chemical weapons and was sentenced to 11y/3months in federal prison.

When I give talks on chemical terrorism, to be somewhat intentionally provocative (also helps make sure the audience is still awake ), I call it my personal vote for the most under-covered story of 2003 and semi-facetiously state that if Krar’s first name was “Ahmed” or “Mohammed” instead of "William," AG John Ashcroft would have been leading press conferences.

VR/Marg

Act as if everything you do matters, while laughing at yourself for thinking anything you do matters.
Tibetan Buddhist saying

[skydyvr 0]

Quote

Sorry, but that's not evidence indicating majority of their population Muslim extremists.

Nice switch of argument from "tiny fraction" to "majority".

Quote

We have lots of Christian extremists in the US, but that doesn't make them the majority of our population.

No, it doesn't. In fact, you've now actually identified the real "tiny fraction".

. . =(_8^(1)

[nerdgirl 0]

I’m going to quibble with both of you – two of my favorite challenging, smart, & thoughtful SC folks
It’s not our “culture” that’s ‘better’ or ‘worse.’ In the great American melting pot, what exactly is American culture anyway? Or western cultural?

I have no hesitation to state “Ours is better” w/r/t governance system. Normative statements are atypical for me. It’s not jingoistic or xenophobic. And it’s not about culture. It’s recognition and valuation of the rule of law and government based on natural law, and all that has evolved since Lords forced the English King to sign the Magna Carta Libertatum (aka the "Great Charter of Freedoms”) to our Constitutional legal battles of today: individual liberty, free press, free elections, due process, independent judiciary, protection from unreasonable search & seizure, security of person, property rights, prudent and discriminate use of force, and freedom of religion as opposed to rule based on fundamentalist religion/theocracy.

(And pre-emptively, completely reject any assertions that rule of law is somehow/somewhy solely a European invention/characteristic. As a counter-example see the Iroquois Confederacy’s “Great Law of Peace”, which was a participatory democracy that guaranteed freedom of religion, expression, and other rights later incorporated in the U.S. Constitution, and influence on America’s Founding Fathers. One notable difference was that the Iroquois ‘Constitution,’ dating back to at least 1400 AD (& perhaps as early as 1100 AD), extended rights to women.)

While many around here may object to current occupant of the Oval Office (or the one prior to that or the possible next one), virtually none advocate overthrowing the government system (the Constitution) and governance by the rule of law (as opposed to theocracy or king).

Otoh, Al Qa'eda -- as lead of larger, nebulous global Salafist movement with *tacit* & (in)direct economic support throughout much of the Middle East/North Africa/Southeast Asia -- has advocated the use of terrorism as a means to cause economic collapse of US and western world.

Over the last 30 years there has been a rise of religiosity, specifically radical Islam & imposition of Sharia law over rule of law through the Middle East, North Africa, and into the Southeast Asia and isolated communities in Europe.

Less normatively (i.e., from a positivist perspective), states with strong legal systems based on non-religious rule of law and strong civil institutions have greater civil & personal rights and greater economic prosperity. (Yes, I am cognizant of exceptions, e.g., Israel.)

Fundamentalism, of any flavor, encroaching into the legal system and governance is regression … the radical Islamists/global Salafists want to regress us all the way back to their twisted version of 7th century CE caliphate. “Twisted” not as a normative judgement but in recognition of the selective exceptionalism, i.e., cell/sat phones, RPGs, AK-47s, internet marketing – okay; everything else that *they* don’t want – not okay.

VR/Marg

Act as if everything you do matters, while laughing at yourself for thinking anything you do matters.
Tibetan Buddhist saying