“Would six-figure salaries attract better teachers?”

[nerdgirl 0]

That's the question being asked by one NY City school.

Over the last couple weeks there have been suggestions that problems in the American primary education system are attributable to certain factors ranging from the NEA to the rise of right-wing fundamentalist Christianity, and that the solutions range from home schooling to not home schooling.

I’ll toss out a couple more speculative hypotheses. To be explicitly clear, I am not asserting either as the single or even likely major independent variables.

-- The ‘coolness’ factor of being a ‘jerk’ or ‘punk’ or ‘stoopid’.
-- While there are some absolutely fabulous teachers in the public education system: I am the product of public education in the 1980s and 1990s. I thank those fantastic teachers! Before WWII, the primary professional opportunities available to women were nurse, secretary, or teacher. In the 20 years after the end of WWII, a lot more professions were legally and socially opened to women. Today, ~50% of the law degrees and ~50% of the doctorates in the life sciences are awarded to women (some fields, like engineering & the physical sciences, are still 80% or more male-dominated ). Half the population previously was essentially restricted to 3 professions; they are now able to do almost anything (remaining exceptions being certain combat military fields). Heck, I have thanked a deity on multiple occasions that *someone else* wants to teach kindergarten because that would drive me crazy and would not be productive for the students! And most of those ‘other’ professions pay better. The pool for teachers, a female-dominated field has been diluted – the best & brightest have other options, and in a free market, they frequently go after the ones that pay more. (I’m quite confident that I’m not the first to pose this hypothesis.)

The underlying question is being asked by one NY City school -- will schools improve if teachers are paid better?

Flat organization – no vice principals. The model is one in which the equivalent to the CEO – the principal – makes less work than the workers (the teachers). Success is dependent on the teachers. One could ask if this is an experiment that might suggest that criticality in any school? Commend the school for not ‘stacking the deck’ – they’re not doing this in an upscale suburb but tackling a ‘tough’ challenge.

“A New York City charter school set to open in 2009 in Washington Heights will test one of the most fundamental questions in education: Whether significantly higher pay for teachers is the key to improving schools.

“The school, which will run from fifth to eighth grades, is promising to pay teachers $125,000, plus a potential bonus based on schoolwide performance. That is nearly twice as much as the average New York City public school teacher earns, roughly two and a half times the national average teacher salary and higher than the base salary of all but the most senior teachers in the most generous districts nationwide.

“The school’s creator and first principal, Zeke M. Vanderhoek, contends that high salaries will lure the best teachers. He says he wants to put into practice the conclusion reached by a growing body of research: that teacher quality — not star principals, laptop computers or abundant electives — is the crucial ingredient for success.

“The school will open with seven teachers and 120 students, most of them from low-income Hispanic families. At full capacity, it will have 28 teachers and 480 students. It will have no assistant principals, and only one or two social workers. Its classes will have 30 students. In an inversion of the traditional school hierarchy that is raising eyebrows among school administrators, the principal will start off earning just $90,000. In place of a menu of electives to round out the core curriculum, all students will take music and Latin. Period.

“‘This is an approach that has not been tried in this way in American education, and it opens up a slew of fascinating opportunities,’ said Frederick M. Hess, director of education policy studies at the American Enterprise Institute. ‘That $125,000 figure could have a catalytic effect.’

“The school’s teachers will be selected through a rigorous application process outlined on its Web site, www.tepcharter.org, and run by Mr. Vanderhoek. There will be telephone and in-person interviews, and applicants will have to submit multiple forms of evidence attesting to their students’ achievement and their own prowess; only those scoring at the 90th percentile in the verbal section of the GRE, GMAT or similar tests need apply. The process will culminate in three live teaching auditions.”

/Marg

Act as if everything you do matters, while laughing at yourself for thinking anything you do matters.
Tibetan Buddhist saying

[dannydan 5]

I am not all that sure that a "six figure salary" benefits the student! A REAL teacher is going to teach no matter what their pay is. The ones that complain that they don't get paid enuf for what they have to go through to teach, probably would not be a better teacher with a major raise. So therefore, I believe that a "lazy whiney" teacher/instructor would just be taking away money for their pocket while the student(s) would still be left "pushed for excellence".
I also want to insert that a student has to have a drive to be excellent!
But if society, teachers, politics, economy, lack of parents/mentors is LACKING in a students life, there may not be any drive anyway to where a highly paid teacher could help..

[billvon 3,120]

>A REAL teacher is going to teach no matter what their pay is.

Nonsense. That's no more true than saying a REAL AFF instructor will teach no matter what the school pays him, or that saying a REAL engineer doesn't care what his salary is. People do care about money, mainly because the people _they_ pay (like landlords, the power company etc) care about it too.

>The ones that complain that they don't get paid enuf for what they have
>to go through to teach, probably would not be a better teacher with a
>major raise.

Agreed. But with the higher salary, you'd have more teachers to choose from. A skilled scientist who was looking at a career with a high paying biotech firm might teach instead if the price was right. Imagine a high school science lab with professors doing real research.

[Amazon 7]

I believe if the pay and benefits were better... then more people would see a teaching position as more desireable.

I also believe more parents need to take more of a role in their childrens education. Without the parents to instill in their children, the value of education, the best teachers around will not motivate the students. There also has to be a C change in how many groups see education...the dumb as dirt and proud of it crowd needs to be pushed to extinction.... and good riddance.

[lawrocket 3]

Yes. It would attract MORE people interested in being teachers. Those who would be doctors, engineers, and chemists (just got done watching Breaking Bad) would go into teaching instead.

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[Nightingale 0]

I can tell you that I left the profession because I could not afford to remain a teacher. I still tutor kids, so I guess you could say I am still teaching in some way, but it'd take a lot more money than I was making to get me back into a classroom with 40 students and several hundred politicians.

[kelpdiver 2]

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“The school’s teachers will be selected through a rigorous application process outlined on its Web site, www.tepcharter.org, and run by Mr. Vanderhoek. There will be telephone and in-person interviews, and applicants will have to submit multiple forms of evidence attesting to their students’ achievement and their own prowess; only those scoring at the 90th percentile in the verbal section of the GRE, GMAT or similar tests need apply. The process will culminate in three live teaching auditions.”

[crwtom 0]

Yes - but not by itself.

IMO the minimum requirement for high school teaching should be at least a Master's or similar advanced graduate degree in a core discipline. That in addition to pedagogical training and probationary employments under supervision for the first couple of years -- possibly also federal mandatory teacher tests in future years.

People who get masters degrees and subject themselves to this training will have many more and easier job opportunities. By basic supply and demand mechanisms this will force states and school to increase teacher salaries considerably (as well as justifiably).

There are good reasons for asking for more advanced degrees even if the material learned is far beyond what can be taught in the class room. At the BA/BS level there are still too many who take subjects "just to get by" and never really get on top of a discipline with a broader perspective. They carry an attitude of "here is the short cut/trick to get through this type of problem" or "here's how to have fun with it even if you don't understand it" into the class room rather than a more authorative view that tries to lead students to core principles.

This would alleviate also another factor that keep many good people out of the teaching business - namely, the fact that the prestige and recognition of the profession could be better. It's not enticing to listen to stuff like "those who can do - those who can't teach". If you increase the academic level of people hired for the job this will change.

Implementation would be a nightmare though - as you cannot really fire all BA/BS high school teacher and would have to run a two tier system for couple of decades.

Cheers, T

*******************************************************************
Fear causes hesitation, and hesitation will cause your worst fears to come true

[Squeak 17]

No, but it would attract a lot more teachers, many of whom would do more harm than good.


I am a teacher, and came into teaching from a VERY highly paid construction job. I am a teacher because I WANT TO TEACH, Not because of the money. I earned a hell of a lot more in construction than i do now, however I love what i do.



More money in the pockets of teachers is not the answer. better conditions, smaller classes, more respect from the community. In many countries Teachers are held in high esteem, western cultures treat them like CRAP.

You are not now, nor will you ever be, good enough to not die in this sport (Sparky)
My Life ROCKS!
How's yours doing?

[Squeak 17]

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Yes - but not by itself.

IMO the minimum requirement for high school teaching should be at least a Master's or similar advanced graduate degree in a core discipline.
Cheers, T

Good subject knowledge, whilst important, is only a small component of teaching. There are many many people with vast amounts of knowledge who are absolutely crap at teaching.
With the current teacher shortages, it would be silly to make it even more difficult to gain a good quality teacher, by making the process more stringent and narrow focussed.

My degree background is in Science, but I also teach Maths, and Computing, and have relief taut, many other subjects. Being a good teacher has only a little to do with having good content knowledge.

You are not now, nor will you ever be, good enough to not die in this sport (Sparky)
My Life ROCKS!
How's yours doing?

[Gawain 0]

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I believe if the pay and benefits were better... then more people would see a teaching position as more desireable.

There are some teachers in the NYC district making about $90K.

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I also believe more parents need to take more of a role in their childrens education. Without the parents to instill in their children, the value of education, the best teachers around will not motivate the students. There also has to be a C change in how many groups see education...the dumb as dirt and proud of it crowd needs to be pushed to extinction.... and good riddance.

This, I believe has far more impact on enhancing a teacher's ability...having "teachable" students.

So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh
Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright
'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life
Make light!

[PLFXpert 0]

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Yes. It would attract MORE people interested in being teachers. Those who would be doctors, engineers, and chemists (just got done watching Breaking Bad) would go into teaching instead.

Yup. There are several things I'd love to have done--teaching being one--had it paid better.

I'm not sure a higher salary would "attract better teachers", overall. I'm certain other improvements are necessary first & foremost.

Paint me in a corner, but my color comes back.

[kallend 2,150]

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I am not all that sure that a "six figure salary" benefits the student! A REAL teacher is going to teach no matter what their pay is.

We could say the same about CEOs with their 8 figure salaries. A REAL CEO would do it regardless of what their pay is.

Or pro athletes.

Or movie stars.

Or lawyers.

Or cardiologists.

...

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[TrophyHusband 0]

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the dumb as dirt and proud of it crowd needs to be pushed to extinction.... and good riddance.

your social darwinism is showing.

"Your scrotum is quite nice" - Skymama
www.kjandmegan.com

[base428 1]

I wish there was an engineering union that could whine on my behalf as much as our local teachers do, because I don't make six figures. And I work all year long......

Teachers should know by now that they're not going to get rich in their profession. If enough teachers realized this, supply would drop and salaries would increase.

(c)2010 Vertical Visions. No unauthorized duplication permitted. <==For the media only

[Amazon 7]

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Good subject knowledge, whilst important, is only a small component of teaching. There are many many people with vast amounts of knowledge who are absolutely crap at teaching.
With the current teacher shortages, it would be silly to make it even more difficult to gain a good quality teacher, by making the process more stringent and narrow focussed.

My degree background is in Science, but I also teach Maths, and Computing, and have relief taut, many other subjects. Being a good teacher has only a little to do with having good content knowledge.

You hit the nail on the head in one respect.

If there is going to be a requirement for a higher degree for the teacher.. then they need to get that degree in the subject they are being hired to teach for.

ALSO..

Having been an instructor for 8 years in the USAF.. I think that the system we had of having to actually LEARN how to teach should be a basic requirement for ANY and ALL teachers. AS you said.. there are a LOT of teachers who may have very good skills in a given discipline but if they cant pass that knowledge on then they are useless to the educational system.

[FreeflyChile 0]

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Good subject knowledge, whilst important, is only a small component of teaching. There are many many people with vast amounts of knowledge who are absolutely crap at teaching.
With the current teacher shortages, it would be silly to make it even more difficult to gain a good quality teacher, by making the process more stringent and narrow focussed.

My degree background is in Science, but I also teach Maths, and Computing, and have relief taut, many other subjects. Being a good teacher has only a little to do with having good content knowledge.

You hit the nail on the head in one respect.

If there is going to be a requirement for a higher degree for the teacher.. then they need to get that degree in the subject they are being hired to teach for.

ALSO..

Having been an instructor for 8 years in the USAF.. I think that the system we had of having to actually LEARN how to teach should be a basic requirement for ANY and ALL teachers. AS you said.. there are a LOT of teachers who may have very good skills in a given discipline but if they cant pass that knowledge on then they are useless to the educational system.

I think that what you are saying would no doubt result in better teachers...but if you are raising the barriers to entry in a profession that many people feel is already underpaid and underappreciated, aren't you just going to further discourage people from pursuing this career?

I think that in doing this, you'd almost have to increase salaries to levels competitive with other industries that require this kind of education.

[kallend 2,150]

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Quote

Good subject knowledge, whilst important, is only a small component of teaching. There are many many people with vast amounts of knowledge who are absolutely crap at teaching.
With the current teacher shortages, it would be silly to make it even more difficult to gain a good quality teacher, by making the process more stringent and narrow focussed.

My degree background is in Science, but I also teach Maths, and Computing, and have relief taut, many other subjects. Being a good teacher has only a little to do with having good content knowledge.

You hit the nail on the head in one respect.

If there is going to be a requirement for a higher degree for the teacher.. then they need to get that degree in the subject they are being hired to teach for.

ALSO..

Having been an instructor for 8 years in the USAF.. I think that the system we had of having to actually LEARN how to teach should be a basic requirement for ANY and ALL teachers. AS you said.. there are a LOT of teachers who may have very good skills in a given discipline but if they cant pass that knowledge on then they are useless to the educational system.

Absolutely correct. Both mastery of the discipline, and knowing how to teach, are essential. One without the other is pretty useless.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[Amazon 7]

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I think that what you are saying would no doubt result in better teachers...but if you are raising the barriers to entry in a profession that many people feel is already underpaid and underappreciated, aren't you just going to further discourage people from pursuing this career?

I think that in doing this, you'd almost have to increase salaries to levels competitive with other industries that require this kind of education.

I absolutely agree.

I want barriers raised.. I want STANDARDS raised. With that.. comes more respect for their profession.

BUT.. I am willing to pay them more when they prove to me they can actually teach the next genration how to be productive members of society.. not just glorified baby sitters.

[FreeflyChile 0]

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I think that what you are saying would no doubt result in better teachers...but if you are raising the barriers to entry in a profession that many people feel is already underpaid and underappreciated, aren't you just going to further discourage people from pursuing this career?

I think that in doing this, you'd almost have to increase salaries to levels competitive with other industries that require this kind of education.

I absolutely agree.

I want barriers raised.. I want STANDARDS raised. With that.. comes more respect for their profession.

BUT.. I am willing to pay them more when they prove to me they can actually teach the next genration how to be productive members of society.. not just glorified baby sitters.

I agree with that line.

Now, would implementing something like this require a large overhaul of the process? First, you'd have to convince the populous at large to fund this. Then comes the issue of all the teachers already teaching that would be required to get up to speed....

Hopefully this experiment in New York provides some results that will inspire other communities to emulate it.

[DJL 235]

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A REAL teacher is going to teach no matter what their pay is.

That's ignoring the truth that teachers really only scrape by financially. You're not creating a competetive field with what they currently pay.

"I encourage all awesome dangerous behavior." - Jeffro Fincher

[lawrocket 3]

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Or lawyers.

If they aren't in it for the money they aren't REAL lawyers.

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[gmanpilot 0]

I think, generally, schools would get a better return on their dollar if they used it to cut class sizes in half instead of doubling teacher's pay. I'm not a teacher but I have plenty of friends who are and their common complaint is not about the money, it's about the sizes of their classes.

_________________________________________
-There's always free cheese in a mouse trap.

[kelpdiver 2]

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I think, generally, schools would get a better return on their dollar if they used it to cut class sizes in half instead of doubling teacher's pay. I'm not a teacher but I have plenty of friends who are and their common complaint is not about the money, it's about the sizes of their classes.

well, you'd have less turnover of teachers quitting for another industry. That has a slight increase in quality.

But a lousy teacher only does a little bit bette with a smaller class. If they couldn't even hack high school math (algebra, trig, geometry, calculus), how well are they going to teach elementary level math?

The biggest gains with 6 figure salaries is realized when only a few schools are doing it.

[Squeak 17]

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The biggest gains with 6 figure salaries is realized when only a few schools are doing it.

So what you get there is good quality teachers being taken out of the poorer districts, and then having a higher concentration of WELL paid good teachers in a VERY select (elite) area.
Yup i can fully see how that will help the gen pop education


"The rich getting richer, The poor get the picture"

You are not now, nor will you ever be, good enough to not die in this sport (Sparky)
My Life ROCKS!
How's yours doing?