falxori 0
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QuoteThat is perhaps the most overstated, partial truth spin that I've read since the IDF report that called the bulldozer that killed Rachael Corrie "falling debris".
where you there? did you see it happen? or are you making a call that matches your existing views (and please, let skip all of the "unbiased" reports that you have lined up already)
This is the same argument you gave last time, right before I sent you a link to the before, during and after photographs of her getting run over by a bulldozer.
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QuoteThe supplies provided through the blockade are little more than enough to keep the population alive
even if so, who says Israel has to supply them with anything? Israel does not control Gaza anymore, Hamas does.
That's like saying that a rat controls his cage. And the blockade, which was the result of the US and Israel's disapproval of the results of a legal and democratic election, by all accounts is backfiring. My understanding is that support for Hamas is improving.
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Quoteyou still won't acknowledge the extent of the humanitarian crisis that Israel has created in Gaza. There's plenty of "food for thought" to be had on the topic.
and you refuse to acknowledge that Israel has left Gaza completely and that the main reason for the crisis in Gaza is the failure of the Palestinians to take matters into their own hands.
The Israeli residents left the inside of what is now a prison camp. You can't "take matters into your own hands" when you are cut off from the outside world by Israel. Same applies to the west bank, just not as bad.
QuoteCollective punishment is against international law.
can you show me the law that says that an country has to provide supplies to another country in a state of war?
Fouth Geneva convention, article 33.
Article 33. No protected person may be punished for an offence he or she has not personally committed. Collective penalties and likewise all measures of intimidation or of terrorism are prohibited.
Pillage is prohibited.
Reprisals against protected persons and their property are prohibited.
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face it, it is a bit odd that Israel provides supplies to the same entity that launches rockets (targeting civilian towns BTW) and attacks the very same border crossings that are used in order to provide these supplies.
and again, Israel does not control Gaza.
O
Sounds like control to me.
http://www.btselem.org/english/Gaza_Strip/Gaza_Status.asp
falxori 0
Quotephotographs of her getting run over by a bulldozer
there is a big difference between being run over by a D9 bulldozer at work and being run over by a D9 bulldozer intentionally.
QuoteThat's like saying that a rat controls his cage.
well if the rat keeps trying to bite the hand that is feeding it. and again, the Gaza strip has a pretty open border with Egypt. too bad its mostly used for other kinds of "goods"
Quotethe results of a legal and democratic election,
I don't care how they came to power, I care only about what is their agenda. Hitler came to power by democratic election too.
and you know what, if indeed Hamas is the "people's choice" than i feel less bad about the people's suffering.
you can't have it both ways.
QuoteYou can't "take matters into your own hands" when you are cut off from the outside world by Israel
thats the thing, they didnt even try.
had the shooting stopped, had the fuel and food terminals not been targetted all the time and STILL Israel would have prevented free flow of people and goods, then you might have had a point.
QuoteFouth Geneva convention, article 33
this has nothing to do with the issue at hand. carpet bombing neighbourhoods regardless of whether or not there is terrorist activity there will fall under this definition. not trading with a nation that is in a state of war with you is not.
and somewhere in that Geneva convention i believe it was stated that combat units must be clearly marked and that no militaristic operations may take place in civilian environments. if they dont follow this rule they cant complain if civilians get hurt (especially when they are actually targetting civilians
QuoteSounds like control to me.
Israel controls either what is needed for its security (airspace for example) or what was never settled as part of the agreements (safe passage between Gaza and the west bank).
obviously it controls the border crossings between the Gaza strip and Israel mush like any border checkpoint.
the Raffah crossing between Gaza and Egypt is not under Israeli control (not that they need it as they smuggle whatever they want across the Egyptian border.
o
O
"Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero."
QuoteQuotephotographs of her getting run over by a bulldozer
there is a big difference between being run over by a D9 bulldozer at work and being run over by a D9 bulldozer intentionally.
See attachment......again. Ok, I'll admit it. It's not exactly the same picture I posted last time. This is a different angle.
falxori 0
have you ever been inside D9 bulldozer?
do you know the "dead areas" from the drivers position?
do you know how limited the field of view is in such heavy and heavily armored vehicles?
you seem almost too eager to say they had run her over on purpose
but again, I wasnt there so I dont know, all I know it makes sooo much sense that she was running around a D9 Bulldozer at work and got hit by it.
If someone had wanted to hurt her on purpose, there are much easier ways that chasing her down with a heavily armored bulldozer.
O
do you know the "dead areas" from the drivers position?
do you know how limited the field of view is in such heavy and heavily armored vehicles?
you seem almost too eager to say they had run her over on purpose
but again, I wasnt there so I dont know, all I know it makes sooo much sense that she was running around a D9 Bulldozer at work and got hit by it.
If someone had wanted to hurt her on purpose, there are much easier ways that chasing her down with a heavily armored bulldozer.
O
"Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero."
Amazon 7
QuoteSee attachment......again. Ok, I'll admit it. It's not exactly the same picture I posted last time. This is a different angle.
That whole putting your body in front of large.. even slow moving metal objects just goes to prove that unless you are Superman.. it just does not work out well for most people whe seem to feel that they are invincible because they are entitled Americans.
Hmm One way airfare to Cairo from New York is about $700 dollars.. why dont you go hang out in Gaza for a month or so and see how it works out for you.
Quotehave you ever been inside D9 bulldozer?
do you know the "dead areas" from the drivers position?
do you know how limited the field of view is in such heavy and heavily armored vehicles?
you seem almost too eager to say they had run her over on purpose
but again, I wasnt there so I dont know, all I know it makes sooo much sense that she was running around a D9 Bulldozer at work and got hit by it.
If someone had wanted to hurt her on purpose, there are much easier ways that chasing her down with a heavily armored bulldozer.
O
I don't know if the driver saw her or not when he ran her over. The protesters were on the site for hours prior to the incident trying to act as human shields. The IDF knew they were there but they still continued to bulldoze the homes. But what I am "so eager" to point out is that the IDF's report calling her death the result of "falling debris" is complete crap.
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Hmm One way airfare to Cairo from New York is about $700 dollars.. why dont you go hang out in Gaza for a month or so and see how it works out for you.
I think you would probably benefit more from the trip. I'm already willing to acknowledge the conditions. I'm also not certain that Israel would let me in. Israel wouldn't let a high profile guy like Carter in so what chance does little old me have?
By the way, I'm not ignoring the rest of your earlier post. It's just that it's getting late and it's obvious that our last conversation on this issue had absolutely no impact. I'm getting the same old rhetoric again.
I'm glad you're doing well and I'll admit that I do get a little concerned when you disappear from discussions on the topic for months at a time.
However, we will never see eye to eye on this issue. You think that land outside of Israel's border is "in dispute" and that by not taking more that Israel is making a compromise. I think, as does most of the world, that the green line is your border and that by continuing to take more land and Israel's policy of apartheid that you threaten our national security. Israel violates our own official policy on the issue and I wish it to be held accountable.
I also understand that by living with this conflict for so many years that you are willing to accept a certain degree of inhumane treatment of your neighbors. I understand it but I don't accept it. But regardless of how either of us feels about it, it really doesn't matter. The human rights abuses are illegal. Which means that I also understand why people would want to hold both you and me accountable for it.
I'm glad you're doing well and I'll admit that I do get a little concerned when you disappear from discussions on the topic for months at a time.
However, we will never see eye to eye on this issue. You think that land outside of Israel's border is "in dispute" and that by not taking more that Israel is making a compromise. I think, as does most of the world, that the green line is your border and that by continuing to take more land and Israel's policy of apartheid that you threaten our national security. Israel violates our own official policy on the issue and I wish it to be held accountable.
I also understand that by living with this conflict for so many years that you are willing to accept a certain degree of inhumane treatment of your neighbors. I understand it but I don't accept it. But regardless of how either of us feels about it, it really doesn't matter. The human rights abuses are illegal. Which means that I also understand why people would want to hold both you and me accountable for it.
QuoteI think, as does most of the world, that the green line is your border and that by continuing to take more land and Israel's policy of apartheid that you threaten our national security.
So you acknowledge Israel's right to exist within pre-1967 borders?
falxori 0
QuoteI don't know if the driver saw her or not when he ran her over.
so you accept the possibility of it being an accident?
Quotetrying to act as human shields
well shields of all sorts are likely to get hurt sometimes. if she chose to jump in front of a working bulldozer, she can only blame herself.
QuoteIDF's report calling her death the result of "falling debris" is complete crap
since you weren't there, I dont see how you can be so sure. but, does it really matter if she got hurt by debris or by the bulldozer that was working there itself?
"Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero."
falxori 0
QuoteI'm getting the same old rhetoric again.
getting and giving
QuoteI'm glad you're doing well and I'll admit that I do get a little concerned when you disappear from discussions on the topic for months at a time.
just been busy at work, but if you miss me just send me an email, I can always make some time for a good debate...
QuoteThe human rights abuses are illegal.
you can't take things out of context. you can't ignore the fact that the buldozed house belongs to a suicide bomber or that a sniper was hiding in it while shooting at farmers across the border.
you cant ignore the fact that in the roadblocks, a lot of explosives and terrorists are caught and that when these roadblocks are removed the result is usually a bus or a coffee shot blowing up.
I'm not saying that civilians are not suffering (on both sides) but none of these measures are taken just because Israel feels like making the Palestinian lives harder
O
"Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero."
QuoteQuoteI think, as does most of the world, that the green line is your border and that by continuing to take more land and Israel's policy of apartheid that you threaten our national security.
So you acknowledge Israel's right to exist within pre-1967 borders?
Yep. I have a reservation or two on how the state of Israel was created but there has to be some sort of framework established if there's going to be any chance of peace. And part of that framework entails keeping Jerusalem as an international city. You have three religions which lay claim to its importance and we all know that religions don't play well together, no matter how closely related.
QuoteQuoteI don't know if the driver saw her or not when he ran her over.
so you accept the possibility of it being an accident?
I do think it's possible that the driver didn't know she was right in front of him at that moment. Due to the blind spots on the machines the IDF often uses spotters to help guide the equipment.
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Quotetrying to act as human shields
well shields of all sorts are likely to get hurt sometimes. if she chose to jump in front of a working bulldozer, she can only blame herself.
True, but the machine operator also knew that there were protesters trying to stop the destruction and that there was the possibility that he could kill someone. It was his decision to continue.
QuoteIDF's report calling her death the result of "falling debris" is complete crap
since you weren't there, I dont see how you can be so sure. but, does it really matter if she got hurt by debris or by the bulldozer that was working there itself?
I can be sure because it's obvious that she was run over by a bulldozer. That's not "debris". And I think it matters because if this had happened in Iran then we would have started "Corrie's war" and bombed the crap out of the country. When an "ally" does it we get a small write up in a couple of local papers.
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QuoteThe human rights abuses are illegal.
you can't take things out of context. you can't ignore the fact that the buldozed house belongs to a suicide bomber or that a sniper was hiding in it while shooting at farmers across the border.
In the minority of cases that is true. But many more home destructions were either for punitive reasons, supposed building permit violations or for "military purposes". In addition to the homes the IDF has destroyed three thousand year old orchards as well as squash and tomato fields. That's collective punishment.
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you cant ignore the fact that in the roadblocks, a lot of explosives and terrorists are caught and that when these roadblocks are removed the result is usually a bus or a coffee shot blowing up.
You can't expect to live in peace with your neighbor if you create a system of oppression and second class citizenry.
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I'm not saying that civilians are not suffering (on both sides) but none of these measures are taken just because Israel feels like making the Palestinian lives harder
O
Then what would be the purpose for not letting a farmer get to his land on some days but not on others?
What would be the purpose of beating up the family members of a little girl who touched the separation barrier with her finger?
What would be the purpose of repeatedly harassing the Palestinians living in towns such as Hebron to the point that the residents have to put up metal gates on the windows and doors to keep the settlers out?
What would be the purpose of keeping a Palestinian farmer's produce stuck at a roadblock until it rots?
What would be the purpose for the west bank settlers repeatedly attacking Palestinians with stones?
Apparently quite a bit is done in an effort to make the Palestinian life harder.
question is, is this "cease fire" a first step towards peace or is it just taking a break in order to smuggle more explosives and arms through the Egyptian border.
if its a strategic choice, great. if its a tactic move that will allow them to prepare for the next planned round than no thanks.
where you there? did you see it happen? or are you making a call that matches your existing views (and please, let skip all of the "unbiased" reports that you have lined up already)
even if so, who says Israel has to supply them with anything? Israel does not control Gaza anymore, Hamas does.
and you refuse to acknowledge that Israel has left Gaza completely and that the main reason for the crisis in Gaza is the failure of the Palestinians to take matters into their own hands.
can you show me the law that says that an country has to provide supplies to another country in a state of war?
face it, it is a bit odd that Israel provides supplies to the same entity that launches rockets (targeting civilian towns BTW) and attacks the very same border crossings that are used in order to provide these supplies.
and again, Israel does not control Gaza.
O
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