Palestinian Attack on Israeli Seminary

[idrankwhat 0]

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While your reference is excellent, I still can get no answer that truly vindicates this strange hatred for the regions only operating, governing democracy (anywhere from Morocco to Saudi Arabia) versus a group of people that have no historical claim to the land they have been offered time, and time again, only to reject every measured peace option.

The Palestinians have as much historical claim to the land as the Israelis do. And without going through the last 60-80 years of history, let's just look at the current state and why the Palestinians aren't happy.
According to article 49 of the 4th Geneva convention "The occupying power shall not deport or transfer parts of its own population into the territories it occupies."
Israel is obviously in blatant violation of this as evidenced as recently as the call last week for 700 new building permits. Israel has also basically broken up the West Bank into six different regions. Palestinian travel within and without of those regions is completely at the discretion or at times "whim" of the occupying forces. There are "Israeli only" roads which even prohibit a Palestinian from crossing from one side to the other, thereby making a contiguous Palestinian territory impossible. Thousands of Palestinian homes and thousand year old orchards have been destroyed for what the IDF calls "security" considerations or "permit violations". Thousands of Palestinian homes have been occupied by Israeli settlers as part of an often very violent "Palestinian transfer" operation. Hebron is probably the ugliest example of that right now.
Israel as the occupying force has a responsibility to protect the safety of the entire civilian population yet the IDF often turns a blind eye to settler violence and in some cases enables it.
This is getting longer winded than I wanted it to be (and I haven't even mentioned Gaza yet) but check out the videos on the website and you'll get a better picture of what conditions the Palestinians are living under. I want to get to one of my biggest issues.
The part that annoys the crap out of me, and probably much of the rest of the world, is the double standard. The US publicly insists that Israel's actions are in violation of international law and that we don't approve of much of their activity. However not only do we NOT put any pressure on them to stop but we continue to support them with about $3 billion in aid per year, our UN veto power on most resolutions against Israel and even go so far as sending them (likely illegal) shipments of cluster bombs during the conflict with Lebanon. We've made a lot of enemies through this double standard. If we'd hold Israel accountable for their internationally illegal and inhumane treatment in the occupied territories we'd go a long way towards settling our problems with our adversaries in the Middle East. That doesn't mean we should let Israel be left to fend for itself but it does mean that we should use our economic power to force them to quit with their westward expansion and oppression and to ease the humanitarian crisis in Gaza. This policy of beating until morale improves isn't going to work. It may result in a larger Israel and Palestinians either exterminated or on reservations but it will only make problems worse as the rest of the world tries to hold us accountable for our complicity.

[Darius11 12]

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The part that annoys the crap out of me, and probably much of the rest of the world, is the double standard. The US publicly insists that Israel's actions are in violation of international law and that we don't approve of much of their activity. However not only do we NOT put any pressure on them to stop but we continue to support them with about $3 billion in aid per year, our UN veto power on most resolutions against Israel and even go so far as sending them (likely illegal) shipments of cluster bombs during the conflict with Lebanon. We've made a lot of enemies through this double standard. If we'd hold Israel accountable for their internationally illegal and inhumane treatment in the occupied territories we'd go a long way towards settling our problems with our adversaries in the Middle East. That doesn't mean we should let Israel be left to fend for itself but it does mean that we should use our economic power to force them to quit with their westward expansion and oppression and to ease the humanitarian crisis in Gaza. This policy of beating until morale improves isn't going to work. It may result in a larger Israel and Palestinians either exterminated or on reservations but it will only make problems worse as the rest of the world tries to hold us accountable for our complicity.

The reason I quoted that again is in hope that people will take the time to read it and try it imagine how it looks in the eyes of the people of the middle east.
It makes us look (rightfully so I might add) that we don’t have a problem with Apartheid, violent and an inhumane regime as long as the atrocities are being done by our friends and against Muslims. Combine that with all the torture scandals, and all of our actions and it is easy to see why we are viewed as hypocrites and hated.

I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain

[jakee 1,611]

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That wasn't your whole post now, was it?

Whatever man...why don't you point me to some of the stuff that I'm so in the dark about....O enlightened one...

The stuff in your own post that you've apparently forgotten that you wrote, or other stuff about Israel?

Tell you what, why don't we start with the indiscriminate rocket attacks?

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[Amazon 7]

I so love it when the Brits whine about the Israeli's....Y

all still have a hard on for them since they tossed your lot out... you could not beat them on their ground so you ran away..... to whine about it ever since.

[jakee 1,611]

I'm not sure why it's relevant but I can assure you that at the time of writing I was quite flacid.

How much does it bug you to know that other people can see issues in shades of grey, rather than the stark black and white to which you seem to be forever limited?

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[cumplidor 0]

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religious students at their studies

A bit of research into the 'religious school' or 'seminary', discovers that they refer to the 'seminary' locally as a 'Yeshiva' which, interestingly if one investigates what is taught at these centers, would amount to racism just about anywhere else.

read about how Christians in Israel want the Jews to stop spitting on them, and who is doing it, and where they go to school...

PLEASE DO NOT MISTAKE THIS POST AS SUPPORT FOR KILLING ANYONE, for whatever reason..

I do believe however, that some facts are intentionally omitted to help promote the 'okay-ness' or justify the heavy handed retaliation and increased hardships imposed on the refugees.. And had THOSE facts been out there, I believe there would be much more criticisim of their 'retaliation'

[Butters 0]

Both groups are insane ...

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"Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results." Albert Einstein

"That looks dangerous." Leopold Stotch

[idrankwhat 0]

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I do believe however, that some facts are intentionally omitted to help promote the 'okay-ness' or justify the heavy handed retaliation and increased hardships imposed on the refugees.. And had THOSE facts been out there, I believe there would be much more criticisim of their 'retaliation'

That just about sums up my problem with the coverage of the conflict.

[cumplidor 0]

I'm glad someone steps up and speaks the truth of how they feel. All this two faced lying and backstabbing has me confused. It seems our foreign policy lines up nicely with this maligned attitude of superiority. hmm coincidence?

Read it here

If this is coming from their religious leaders, isn't that called terrorism if we are talking about the Muslim folks?

edited to fix the click

[Skyrad 0]

It is often overlooked the Jewish Zionist's persecution of Christians in Israel just as Islamic extremists were overlooked during the '80's when it was conveniant to foriegn policy to do so. There is now a movement of Jews for genocide around the world who wish to persecute what happened in the Warsaw ghetto to the people in Gazza. Jews who advocate the denial of even water to the people living in the Gazza ghetto.
There are extreamists on both side but unfortunatly there are many in the world who only wish to focus on the Islamic ones. And decent people Jewish, Muslim and Christian are the ones to suffer at the extremists hands.

When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy.
Lucius Annaeus Seneca

[Skyrad 0]

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But WHY, every time some territory is given back to the Palestinians, does Hamas insist on moving right in and laying down a blanket of rocket fire on inhabited civilian areas that have now come within rocket range ?

The answer is in your own question. Creeping infiltration of settlers.

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WHY was Hamas passing out candies on the street in Gaza to celebrate a suicide bomber who blew himself and several Israeli civilians up in a civil marketplace ? What's to celebrate about that ? And WHY was there dancing and partying in the streets over somebody who walks into a library and starts shooting religious students at their studies ?

While not supporting the actions I think I can explain why they celebrate. Because as they see it the people that live on the farms and land of their fathers and great grandfathers are the very same people that die in these attacks, therefore these people are in their eyes legitimate targets.

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if the attackers had launched a raid against a military outpost, things like that are expected in war and could even be called "fair".

As the saying goes, all’s fair in love and war.

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So I'm even willing to overlook Israel's MANY AND EGREGIOUS sins, because they have to fight and be assholes

So it seems that you agree that all’s fair so why are you so indignant? If you are prepared to overlook the sins of Isreal you can hardly complain about those of Hamas (et al)

When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy.
Lucius Annaeus Seneca

[Skyrad 0]

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Desperation I guess.If you have nothing to live for you fight w/ the means available. No wonder they suicide bomb.

Some people when confronted with reality... make peace and then build a better life for themselves and their families. ARe you saying the Palistinians are too fucking stupid to make peace and build a better future?

Yea, makes you wonder why they don't embrace democracy and have an election. Surley the US would support or least mediate negotiations with a democraticly elected government. I mean its not like they'd shun a government chosen on democratic grounds. After all thats what the US government want from the Arabs isn't it, thats why 4000 american youngsters have died isn't it?

When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy.
Lucius Annaeus Seneca

[Amazon 7]

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As the saying goes, all’s fair in love and war.

Lets all remember this one when there is further bellyaching about the downtrodden poor Palistinians who get killed because their "freedon fighters" want to hide behind them.

[idrankwhat 0]

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As the saying goes, all’s fair in love and war.

Lets all remember this one when there is further bellyaching about the downtrodden poor Palistinians who get killed because their "freedon fighters" want to hide behind them.

Yes indeed, using human shields are war crimes. Do you agree?

[Amazon 7]

Like the man said.. all is fair...who am I to argue

I am going with that for now.



Further bellyaching to begin in


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[idrankwhat 0]

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Like the man said.. all is fair...who am I to argue

You're the same person who usually argues about things that are not fair or legal. And I typically agree with you, but I use less "colorful" language. So when McCain posts a massive win in only the counties with Diebold machines, that "fair" in your book?

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I am going with that for now.



Further bellyaching to begin in


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It was a simple question, just like the one I asked about the 4th Geneva Convention.
And yes, I can and will "bellyache" and I'm pretty sure that you didn't answer because you, once again, aren't interested in both sides of the story.
If you would really like to discuss the topic, I'd love to do that. We can even make it a game if you like. I'll provide examples of how each side in the Palestinian/Israeli conflict violates international law and hinders the peace process if you'll do enough research to return the gesture.

[Amazon 7]

Both sides......OMG.......how original



and refreshing...for once.

[rehmwa 2]

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who am I to argue

you're the queen of arguing

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[idrankwhat 0]

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Both sides......OMG.......how original



and refreshing...for once.

Deal?
I'll go first. See attachments.

[Amazon 7]

I suggest you look at the angle of the weapons fire.. and who is in cover and who is not.

[idrankwhat 0]

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I suggest you look at the angle of the weapons fire.. and who is in cover and who is not.

[Skyrad 0]

A scorpion came out of the desert to the banks of the Nile, whereupon he accosted a crocodile. "My dear chap," he said to the crocodile, "could we form an alliance to get to the other side of the Nile?"

The crocodile answered, "Do you think I am stupid? I would be at your complete mercy. You could sting me and kill me at any time during the crossing."

"Of course not," said the scorpion. "I promise not to sting you, because if I did sting you, I would drown."

The crocodile thought for a second and then agreed this made sense and took the scorpion on his back. About midstream, the scorpion became agitated and stung the crocodile.

As the two were about to go under, the crocodile turned to the scorpion and said, "Now we will both die. What possible explanation or logic is there for such an act?"

The crocodile replied,
I couldn't help myself, its my nature.

When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy.
Lucius Annaeus Seneca

[cumplidor 0]

Those pics-

The first-
could easily be that some 'wannabe' freedom fighters could be supporting the 'real' freedom fighter?

The second-
I dunno about that one. Does Israel wear fatigues like that? But the 'human shield' appears to be far enough behind the corner to not really be considered a 'shield'.

Another very interesting article...
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7335875.stm

Compares the actions of Israel against the population of the occupied territories, to the same type of treatment the Nazis gave to the Jews. and Israels response to the investigators UN report?

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A spokesman for the Israeli Foreign Ministry said that Israel wanted the UN investigator's mandate changed, so that he could look into human rights violations by the Palestinians as well as Israel.

If that were not to happen, the Israeli government may consider barring entry to the new UN investigator.

Ah, so change the investigation to suit us, or we will ban him from coming in. That's really sad. Oh but whose human rights are the Palestinians violating anyway? They have no ability to deprive medical attention, electricity, or food to anyone. They didn't cut off people from their land with a 30 foot high concrete fence. They lobbed rockets into illegal settlements. I wonder whose rights were violated 'more' in that case eh? the folks who lost their homes? or the folks trying to keep what they stole?
what would you do?

[idrankwhat 0]

Thanks for the link. The response from Israel is typical. It's also very reminiscent of the argument that the US uses when it's deciding what language needs to be added to a UN resolution to keep the US from vetoing it.
As for the pics, I was trying to post some images that were similar. The intent was to get reluctant readers to possibly research both sides of the situation but I won't hold my breath for that one. If I wanted to just bash Israel for using human shields I would have posted this article. Don't miss the video link on the right side of the page.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/6432133.stm
or this one
http://i16.tinypic.com/4lqe2q0.jpg

And by the way, your point about "wannabe" freedom fighters makes a valid point. When looking for some pics of Palestinian human shields I found quite a few showing voluntary shields rushing in to protect the fighters as they fled. Regardless, everything I've seen is ugly stuff, from both sides.

[Skyrad 0]

The IDF has used human shields for years and continues to do so. There is plenty of independent evidence.

*Excessive use of lethal force and using civilians as a "human shield".

http://www.amnesty.org/en/library/asset/MDE15/058/2002/en/dom-MDE150582002en.html

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On 6 October 2005, the High Court of Justice ruled that it was illegal for the IDF to use Palestinian civilians during military actions. The decision was made on a petition that B'Tselem and six other human rights organizations filed in 2002. The petition followed the IDF's use of Palestinian civilians as human shields since the beginning of the second intifada, primarily during IDF operations carried out in Palestinian population centers, as occurred in Operation Defensive Shield.
Soldiers used to pick civilians at random and force the civilians to protect them by doing dangerous tasks. For example, soldiers have ordered Palestinians to:
The method is the same each time: soldiers pick a civilian at random and force him to protect them by doing dangerous tasks that put his life at risk. For example, soldiers have ordered Palestinians to:
• enter buildings to check if they are booby-trapped, or to remove the occupants
• remove suspicious objects from roads used by the army
• stand inside houses where soldiers have set up military positions, so that Palestinians will not fire at the soldiers
• walk in front of soldiers to shield them from gunfire, while the soldiers hold a gun behind their backs and sometimes fire over their shoulders.
The soldiers in the field did not initiate this practice; rather, the order to use civilians as a means of protection was made by senior army officials.

http://www.btselem.org/English/Human_Shields/Index.asp

Its still happening, don't believe me? See for yourself.

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3387356,00.html

Note, the first scourse is a NGO and apolitical the second two are Israeli scources NOT arab.

When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy.
Lucius Annaeus Seneca