Gawain 0 #51 March 11, 2008 QuoteUnfortunately most don’t see the Israel government for the racist regime that it is. The Israelis are using the holocaust sympathy that they rightfully deserve to implement the same pain on another group, and they have been doing it for more then 50 years.Quote It wasn't the Israelis that rejected every internationally brokered deal that could be struck. Arab States started (and had their asses handed to them) no less than three wars on Israel. QuoteThe facts are there. Indeed. Israeli raids on Palestinians are well documented. When was the last time an Israeli soldier sneaked into a Palestinian religious school or Mosque, sprayed the hall with bullets, reloaded, and hunted down every kid he could find, shooting them point-blank in the head? When was the last time Israel launch indiscriminate rocket attacks with no regard for their impact? Israel has been under attack since its creation. Still they are a thriving democracy. The fact that they chose to halt continued raids in the wake of this latest attack is quite a brave move in my opinion. I believe they will be rewarded with more attacks.So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright 'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life Make light! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites tbrown 26 #52 March 11, 2008 QuoteUnfortunately most don’t see the Israel government for the racist regime that it is. The Israelis are using the holocaust sympathy that they rightfully deserve to implement the same pain on another group, and they have been doing it for more then 50 years. The facts are there. Indeed the facts ARE there. I'm going to be respectful but forceful about this Darius, because I value your steadfast opinions that go against the norm, but which I frankly disagree with. I have often myself thought that Israelis are themselves racist. Former President Jimmy Carter has himself used the word apartheid to describe the current situation. Up in Seattle, I was friends with an Israeli who deserted from the army and came back to the US because he could no longer take part in the nightly raids on civilians in their homes. But WHY, every time some territory is given back to the Palestinians, does Hamas insist on moving right in and laying down a blanket of rocket fire on inhabited civilian areas that have now come within rocket range ? More to the point, WHY was Hamas passing out candies on the street in Gaza to celebrate a suicide bomber who blew himself and several Israeli civilians up in a civil marketplace ? What's to celebrate about that ? And WHY was there dancing and partying in the streets over somebody who walks into a library and starts shooting religious students at their studies ? I could honestly understand some enthusiasm if the attackers had launched a raid against a military outpost, things like that are expected in war and could even be called "fair". What it comes down to is that when people commit acts like suicide bombing or shooting up a library, people have to decide which side they're going to be on. Hamas has created a war of their own chosing, on a playing field of their own choice. And since they will kill anyone, preferably unarmed civilians, they have also set the rules of the game. So if Israel decides to play along and act in kind with a large scale attack against Gaza, where the fuck do Hamas OR the fucking UN get off condemning it ? I'm not Israeli, or even a Jew, but if I were in the Middle East, my American passport would make me a target, no matter that I support Barak Obama, or have been opposed to the war in Iraq and George Bush all the way back to my vote for Al Gore in 2000. It would make no matter, those people would be happy to kill me, my wife, our daughters. So I'm supposed to have an ounce of sympathy for any of them ? The sides have already been chosen for me and I know which side I'm on. So I'm even willing to overlook Israel's MANY AND EGREGIOUS sins, because they have to fight and be assholes. They have no choice and neither does Western civilization in Europe or America. The truth is that Hamas has already stated they're not interested in peace, or co-existence with Israel in any way, shape, or form. They are committed to the destruction of Israel and willing to kill anyone (especially those least likely to shoot back) to pursue that end. That's an ugly and dangerous kind of enemy and there's only one way to fight an enemy like that. Which is what makes war such a terrible thing. Personally I think Gaza has become enough of a vexation that Israel would be justified in annihilating the city with a fire bombing on the scale of Dresden and just be done with it. It would teach Hamas an object lesson as well and perhaps even make remaining Palestinians on the West Bank re-think who they might vote for in the future. Is this a barbaric proposition ? Yes, it is. It's horrible. But the way things are shaping up, it may be the only realistic solution. Leaders who start wars need to consider the consequences they may bring on their own people. Too many of them don't give it a second thought. Your humble servant.....Professor Gravity ! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Channman 2 #53 March 11, 2008 Quote>The Palestinians cannot self govern. Hamas cannot govern. So what's the solution? Speak Softly, and carry a Big Stick..."peace through strenth." Handle it like your father taught you how to handle a bully at school. Sometimes you got to learn to fight back, and when you have to, you hit them three ways; Fast, Hard and continuously. My father made a comment to me many years ago in reference to Hitler. "There is only two ways to change an evil man, (1) change is heart or (2) Put a bullet through his brain. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Channman 2 #54 March 11, 2008 Quote Quote As opposed to Israel making concessions and the Palestinians demanding more and more and more like we have now, you mean? -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- If you had what the Palestinians currently have I bet you'd want more! Lifes a bitch when you keep attacking a people you hate and they keep kicking your ass. That is the history of the Palistinian people since before Israel was even a state. They have vowed to destroy the state of Israel.. and unfortunately for them... the Israelis have not rolled over and let them win. SOOO they and their Arab surrogates attacked again.. and lost some more ground... and did it again.. several times. The solution is simple dont attack people... especially ones who have specialized in beating you. The palistinians lob rockets across the boarder daily... the Israilis TRY very very hard to target ONLY the Hamas and Hezbollah fighters who DELIBERATLY hide behind their civilians I highlighted that for those of you who refuse to see what the people you are championing do. Your boys target civilians indiscriminately.to them.. a dead jew is a good jew.. and time for celebration.. and keep lobbing rockets..When Israel attacks Hamas gunmen.. to Israelis celebrate with huge parades????? Hell If you want parity.. perhaps Israel should just launch UNTARGETED rocket attacks into anyplace that fires a rocket at THEIR cities..Then yall could whine in a reality based scenario of how the evil Jews are targeting civilians. Damn, did I just walk into a conservative blog from Amazon. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites idrankwhat 0 #55 March 11, 2008 Quote Drill a well, plant a garden, feed your family and lose the hate. They do. But it's hard to eek out an existence when Israeli roadblocks or "security" fences keep you from getting to your field. And it's hard to reap the rewards of your work when the Israeli government forces you to sell your produce to Israel and then may or may not pay you, and if they do it will likely be only a fraction of the previously agreed upon price. Or when you try to bring your food to market the IDF stops your truck at a checkpoint for a week until your food rots. Most of the Palestinians are trying to do you what you're asking of them but they're not being allowed to. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites idrankwhat 0 #56 March 11, 2008 That was a good post. It helps me understand some of your shorter, more pointed responses a lot better. I agree that Hamas' current refusal to recognize Israel and the rocket attacks, which are indeed war crimes, are counter productive to say the least. Where I think we went wrong was when Hamas was elected. We immediately began to isolate them and allowed Israel to target or kidnap a democratically elected leadership. In 2006 Hamas did state that they were willing to recognize Israel in a peace deal under certain conditions, mostly dealing with the 1967 border. That was a (tiny) window of opportunity that was closed rather quickly but it was an indicator that there was room to negotiate. The US and Israel maintained a hard line against Hamas and continue to treat Abbas government as if it was the legitimate leadership. When Hamas took over Gaza much of it had to do with Hamas' view that the Abbas government was corrupt and living a lavish lifestyle while the Palestinians in Gaza suffered due to the blockade. Israel has turned Gaza into a concentration camp. It controls what comes in, what goes out, whether or not people can fish, how much (or little) electricity they get, it bars family members living in Israel from visiting their relatives in Gaza, and Israel maintains a "death zone" around the Gaza perimeter fence that has resulted in at least 284 deaths since 2000, some of which were children as far away as 800 meters. And this is the very short list of issues. And it doesn't help much when Israeli leaders publicly threaten a "holocaust" in Gaza like one did last week. So what it comes down to for me is that Hamas is guilty of war crimes and is a hindrance to peace but I can also understand why a population under extreme stress might regard them as freedom fighters. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Royd 0 #57 March 11, 2008 Drill a well, plant a garden, feed your family and lose the hate. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- QuoteThey do. But it's hard to eek out an existence when Israeli roadblocks or "security" fences keep you from getting to your field. And it's hard to reap the rewards of your work when the Israeli government forces you to sell your produce to Israel and then may or may not pay you, and if they do it will likely be only a fraction of the previously agreed upon price. Or when you try to bring your food to market the IDF stops your truck at a checkpoint for a week until your food rots. Most of the Palestinians are trying to do you what you're asking of them but they're not being allowed to.What does Israel have anything to do with them providing for themselves on their side of the border? Why would you have to do your farming in the enemy's yard? Why do they have to take their produce to Israel? Where's the help from the Arab brothers to get them on their feet, and going in the right direction, instead of continuing to just stir up a hornet's nest, because of a general hate for Israel? Even if we removed all armed conflict from the situation, and the Jews paid them no attention, the Palestinians would still continue to wallow in their victimhood, and be driven by a desire to destroy Israel, instead of grabbing life by the horns and learning to prosper. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites idrankwhat 0 #58 March 11, 2008 QuoteWhat does Israel have anything to do with them providing for themselves on their side of the border? That's what I'd like to know. Quote Why would you have to do your farming in the enemy's yard? They're not. They're farming on their own land but Israel has built a fence/wall outside of the Israeli border, cutting people off from their own property. Sometimes the IDF will let the farmers go work their land, sometimes not. Here's an example: http://www.btselem.org/English/Video/20060130_Separation_Barrier_Testimony_of_Abd_a_Latif_Odeh.asp Quote Why do they have to take their produce to Israel? Because the IDF controls the flow of goods and people in the West Bank. They decide what the Palestinians can and cannot do and it changes from day to day. Quote Where's the help from the Arab brothers to get them on their feet, and going in the right direction, instead of continuing to just stir up a hornet's nest, because of a general hate for Israel? Sometimes the aid is distributed. Sometimes it isn't. That's up to Israel as well. Quote Even if we removed all armed conflict from the situation, and the Jews paid them no attention, the Palestinians would still continue to wallow in their victimhood, and be driven by a desire to destroy Israel, instead of grabbing life by the horns and learning to prosper. That's simply not true. Sure, there would be few who want to be rid of Israel completely and won't stop until they are dead. But there also many Israelis who won't be satisfied until the Palestinians have been driven completely from the West Bank because they believe that it is theirs to take. But the majority of the Palestinians just want to be allowed to determine the course of their own lives. Here's a link to lots of videos on various issues. http://www.btselem.org/English/Video/Index.asp Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Darius11 12 #59 March 11, 2008 Thank you for the thoughtful post I always like honest, respectful debate. I will try to answer all of your questions as honestly as I can IMHO. QuoteBut WHY, every time some territory is given back to the Palestinians, does Hamas insist on moving right in and laying down a blanket of rocket fire on inhabited civilian areas that have now come within rocket range ? I believe most think it is not enough, most think all the land is their land. I view it as someone forcefully taking my house then allowing me to live in the garage under their watch. QuoteMore to the point, WHY was Hamas passing out candies on the street in Gaza to celebrate a suicide bomber who blew himself and several Israeli civilians up in a civil marketplace ? What's to celebrate about that ? Most Palestinians view the Israelis as the main reason for all there misery it is viewed as a victory to kill your enemy by any means necessary (and they do not have many means), and giving candy or sweets is a form of celebration in the middle east. Most Palestinians have a few family members who have been killed, imprisoned, or had their homes bulldozed with out any due process. There is a lot of hate and to me the hate is understandable. QuoteAnd WHY was there dancing and partying in the streets over somebody who walks into a library and starts shooting religious students at their studies ? I don’t think killing any civilians or anyone is ever a good thing. I know the redneck crowed is waiting to jump on anything I say that they can take out of text. Here is the but. But when you have seen Palestinian children killed, imprisoned (I believe Israel has the highest amount of children in prison), Tortured by the same people who you view as the occupiers it is hard to find sympathy for someone who has shown you none. QuoteI could honestly understand some enthusiasm if the attackers had launched a raid against a military outpost, things like that are expected in war and could even be called "fair". Fair is not really a word to use for war. No one wants a fair war they want to be able to annihilate the enemy. I believe you know the Israeli army capabilities, and you know the Palestinians so you already know why they fight the way they do. I have used the US revolutionary solders as an example before. We invented guerrilla warfare because we had a weaker army and could not fight the British in what was viewed as fair or honorable at the time. So our people hid in the bushes and didn’t line up and play the drums. It is about survival and again it comes back to the Israeli army being viewed as an occupying army by most of the world. If it was not viewed that way Israel would just go in and kill anything that moved. It simply was not there land, and it doesn’t make since that Land that the Palestinians were living on was given away because of what Germany did. It doesn’t make since that some Israelis believe God has told them this land is theirs. QuoteWhat it comes down to is that when people commit acts like suicide bombing or shooting up a library, people have to decide which side they're going to be on. Hamas has created a war of their own chosing, on a playing field of their own choice. And since they will kill anyone, preferably unarmed civilians, they have also set the rules of the game. So if Israel decides to play along and act in kind with a large scale attack against Gaza, where the fuck do Hamas OR the fucking UN get off condemning it ? Again killing is killing, and the civilian trade of is about a 100 Palestinian civilians to one Israeli so should we start bombing Israeli right now or should we at least stop sending them our tax dollars? There is way more Inocent blood on Israeli hands then the Palestinians. Why do people jusyfie that? Simple are news and media groups most are on Israeli side and unfortunately most American Jews can’t seem to see past their religion and group mentality to see the facts. This is a true story (you can take me at my word or not that’s up to you). I was listening to NPR when Lebanon/Israeli thing was going on. They spent 45 sec. Talking about one Israeli civilian who had died. Talk about how he loved riding his bike, when he moved to Israel, how many children he had (basically painted a picture). When that was finished on the news report they mentioned 9 civilians killed on the other side but spent about 4 sec just mention the number. What does that tell you? That’s the news most Americans get one sided already decided who is evil and who is not. It funny cause most Americans (who are not already committed to the Israeli fight) that go over there see the same thing. The mistreatment of a group of people, Jews only roads, Jews only jobs. The Palestinians have to be up at 2 am and wait in line so they can go do the jobs that the Israelis do not want to do for shit pay. Imagine that for a sec. That a group takes your land kills your family destroyed your homes, and now the only way to be civil is to spend your whole life working for the very people who took every thing from you. This is why I can understand the hate. When I look at the whole picture of daily Palestinian life I can see why they hate there enemy so much that they are willing to sacrifice there lives. QuoteI'm not Israeli, or even a Jew, but if I were in the Middle East, my American passport would make me a target, no matter that I support Barak Obama, or have been opposed to the war in Iraq and George Bush all the way back to my vote for Al Gore in 2000. It would make no matter, those people would be happy to kill me, my wife, our daughters. So I'm supposed to have an ounce of sympathy for any of them ? Yet many Americans still go to the Middle East and have a good time. Most talk about how friendly the people are, and how good the food is. Simple as you go any where else you respect there culture and you will be fine. QuoteThe sides have already been chosen for me and I know which side I'm on. So I'm even willing to overlook Israel's MANY AND EGREGIOUS sins, because they have to fight and be assholes. They have no choice and neither does Western civilization in Europe or America. I guess that’s why I find ridiculous. I understand if you have chosen the side but whenever I talk to someone who has chosen that side ask for the reasoning they seem to well misinformed. Most talk about civilians dying but have no idea that the west hand is far bloodier then the east. Many have no clue that Israel is viewed as a gross humane rights violator by the rest of the world. Most can understand how we should target people who are helping are enemy but can not see why we are hated for heavily supporting Israel for more then 50 years. It seems people’s morals change to fit there view I think that’s what I have noticed as the mane difference. We have military bases all over the middle east, we have ships and have had ships there for decades with our guns and cruze missals pointed at what ever country we felt like at the moment. How would we feel if the roles were reversed? How would we feel if there were Iranian battle groups out side Florida waters? All these are things to think about if you view things in fair manner. If you have already chosen your side regardless of the facts then why are we even having this discussion? QuoteThe truth is that Hamas has already stated they're not interested in peace, or co-existence with Israel in any way, shape, or form. They are committed to the destruction of Israel and willing to kill anyone (especially those least likely to shoot back) to pursue that end. That's an ugly and dangerous kind of enemy and there's only one way to fight an enemy like that. Which is what makes war such a terrible thing. When Hamass was democratically elected we decided we want democracy but only if our guy wins. Kind of the same bullshit as usual, and never gave them a chance. Then we wonder why? Hypocrisy, Hypocrisy, and Hypocrisy is our foreign policy QuotePersonally I think Gaza has become enough of a vexation that Israel would be justified in annihilating the city with a fire bombing on the scale of Dresden and just be done with it. It would teach Hamas an object lesson as well and perhaps even make remaining Palestinians on the West Bank re-think who they might vote for in the future. Is this a barbaric proposition ? Yes, it is. It's horrible. But the way things are shaping up, it may be the only realistic solution. Leaders who start wars need to consider the consequences they may bring on their own people. Too many of them don't give it a second thought. Well Israel has the power to do so, and I believe they lack the morals not to. The only thing holding them back is world opinion. In most of the world out side the US Israel is viewed as an occupying army and a huge violator of humane right, and UN sanctions. I also believe that Israel is fully aware that such a move might mean their destruction as well. I hope that the world would treat them as Hitler was treated. I don’t believe living trough an atrocity gives you the right to commit atrocities, and I would hope that the world doesn’t sit back and just watch. Millions of inocent people get evaporated and just let it pass i hope not.I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites jakee 1,611 #60 March 11, 2008 QuoteWhen was the last time Israel launch indiscriminate rocket attacks with no regard for their impact? When you intentionally target villages and farms with cluster munitions and land mines then you have no regard for their impact.Do you want to have an ideagasm? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Skyrad 0 #61 March 12, 2008 Quotehttp://news.yahoo.com/s/time/20080306/wl_time/deathcomesforisraelsseminarians An attack on teenage seminarians. Many shot at point blank range. The paratrooper that came in and ended this guys life is a hero. So, if Israel were to "turn the cheek", would the Palestinians back down and allow peace talks to continue? I suspect, no. How many times must the olive branch be burned? Israel, I believe, needs to reassess its goals, and standing with the Palestinians. It is pretty clear to me that there is no real desire to co-exist. The Palestinian President Abbas has proved impotent, and Gaza is in the hands of Hamas. The Palestinians cannot self govern. Hamas cannot govern. So what do you sugest Max?When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy. Lucius Annaeus Seneca Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Skyrad 0 #62 March 12, 2008 Quote Quote Quote Doesn't really matter when the rest of them do not raise a finger in protest of anything done in the "name of their religion". Well that's just a lie. Really, then why does Hamas continue to run Gaza? Why does Hezbollah undermine the Government of Lebanon? Why do the Iranians somehow allow themselves to be ruled by isolated mullahs? How is it that Palestinian Authority cannot contain movements in their own West Bank, in Jerusalem? How is it that no one has condemned the killing of Theo van Gogh, or the isolation of Ayaan Hirsi Ali in The Netherlands? Where is the outrage over these kids shot in Jerusalem? How is it that France had to endure over three weeks of riots in nearly 300 cities and towns for fear of cracking down on legitimate criminal behavior? Well, at least there's outrage over a couple of comics. Everyone has their priorities in order. Hell, the Iraqis are doing a better job not putting up with the extremists now. JUst because Hammas is a extreame Islamic group doesn't make their fight an Islamic fight. Its a nationalistic group rather that a Jihadist one regardless of how they spin it at home. Regardless of a shared faith (not forgetting there are several strands of Islamic faith) the Palastinians have been persecuted and killed by Arabs as well as Jews which people tend to forget. Sure its easier to lump anyone brown and Muslim into the same group but thats just lazy and unhelpful. Being a Muslim makes you no more untied in your aims and struggles than being a Christian.When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy. Lucius Annaeus Seneca Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Skyrad 0 #63 March 12, 2008 Quote The thing that really bugs me deeply about the "poor folks" in Gaza is the way they celebrate over these events. The fuckers were out dancing and partying in the streets, into the night, over the killing of these students. Hamas was also standing out in traffic, passing out candies to celebrate a suicide bomber who'd blown up in an israeli marketplace. Then we have to see this boo-hoo propoganda about how miserable they all are in the Gaza dialysis clinic. Fuck these people, they voted for Hamas. Kill 'em all. You liberals crack me up.When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy. Lucius Annaeus Seneca Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Skyrad 0 #64 March 12, 2008 Why is it that Americans only ever pick Palastinian atrocities to condemn? Where is your condemnation of Israeli terror attacks on civillians?When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy. Lucius Annaeus Seneca Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Gawain 0 #65 March 12, 2008 QuoteWhy is it that Americans only ever pick Palastinian atrocities to condemn? Where is your condemnation of Israeli terror attacks on civillians? It's not just the US. Had the Arabs used the UN partition plan to their advantage, and declared a nation like Israel did, the US, USSR and a bunch of other countries would have likely recognized them as well. I can find no account of Israel troops staging a raid into Palestinian schools, or a Mosque, shooting kids at point blank range. Everyone keeps bringing this up, and I know the Israel raids into the Palestinian areas. Often innocent bystanders get killed. However, there is rarely a direct account that it was an Israeli soldier that did it...in fact, given the Palestinian militants choice of using AK-47 type weapons, weapons that are not all that accurate, in the hands of people that get next-to-zero training (compared to Israeli soldiers), my money is on an errant bullet shot from the hip of a militant causing more collateral damage. Either way, Israel has taken the high road in the wake of the Seminary attack. I hope it bears real fruit, but I fear that it will not. Sooner or later, peace will arrive through a willing effort, or it will arrive through overwhelming force.So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright 'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life Make light! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Skyrad 0 #66 March 12, 2008 I won't bother posting the very many impartial news accounts and documentarys to be found on you tube that document Israeli attacks on civillian targets. But I do agree with your sentiments that hopefully peace will come to both Palistinians and Jews alike.When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy. Lucius Annaeus Seneca Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites idrankwhat 0 #67 March 12, 2008 Quote Everyone keeps bringing this up, and I know the Israel raids into the Palestinian areas. Often innocent bystanders get killed. However, there is rarely a direct account that it was an Israeli soldier that did it... There are plenty of direct accounts. But you rarely hear about them through the major channels. Quote in fact, given the Palestinian militants choice of using AK-47 type weapons, weapons that are not all that accurate, in the hands of people that get next-to-zero training (compared to Israeli soldiers), my money is on an errant bullet shot from the hip of a militant causing more collateral damage. ra·tion·al·ize (past and past participle ra·tion·al·ized, present participle ra·tion·al·iz·ing, 3rd person present singular ra·tion·al·iz·es) verb Definition: 1. transitive and intransitive verb offer reasonable explanation for something: to attempt to justify behavior normally considered irrational or unacceptable by offering an apparently reasonable explanation Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites jakee 1,611 #68 March 12, 2008 Are you actually being intentionally blind now?Do you want to have an ideagasm? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Gawain 0 #69 March 12, 2008 QuoteAre you actually being intentionally blind now? No, but apparently you are, reread my post: QuoteI can find no account of Israel troops staging a raid into Palestinian schools, or a Mosque, shooting kids at point blank range. I have repeatedly stated that Israeli raids are well documented. I have found accounts of a 11 year old girl getting shot by militants:http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/3657652.stm I also found this account from 2007, where a 10 year old and 30 year old got killed by an artillery blast, but I think we can agree that is not point blank or intentional: http://www.iht.com/articles/2007/06/27/news/gaza.php I found this one on English al-Jazeera, a teacher was killed when a missile missed its target: http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/A9239A00-5057-4F2E-875A-065987125470.htm And this one, is most recent, about a guy in the West Bank getting killed: http://www.presstv.ir/detail.aspx?id=47124§ionid=351020202 So, again, I ask about when Israel has directly targeted women, children, in schools and mosques, akin to the types of stunts the Palestinians try to pull.So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright 'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life Make light! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites jakee 1,611 #70 March 12, 2008 That wasn't your whole post now, was it?Do you want to have an ideagasm? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Gawain 0 #71 March 13, 2008 QuoteThat wasn't your whole post now, was it? Whatever man...why don't you point me to some of the stuff that I'm so in the dark about....O enlightened one...So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright 'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life Make light! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites idrankwhat 0 #72 March 13, 2008 I understand your frustration. I felt the same way when I started reading more, realized that I was poorly informed and paying to help support an oppressive regime. But to answer your question, I can't show you where an Israeli soldier ran into a classroom and shot a Palestinian child but I can show you where a couple were picked off while looking out of a window or a child was used as a human shield. And to be fair, I also cannot show you where a Palestinian launched an air raid. If you want a more specific list of fatalities the check out this link. You can't get much more specific, but you do have to read. http://www.btselem.org/English/Statistics/Casualties.asp Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites nathaniel 0 #73 March 13, 2008 Quote Why is it that Americans only ever pick Palastinian atrocities to condemn? Where is your condemnation of Israeli terror attacks on civillians? The difference, so far as I can tell, is that Israel is spending millions of dollars to protect citizens on both sides, whereas Hamas et al go to lengths to blend in and cause civilian causalties on both sides. Israeli develops smart bombs, Hamas focuses on quantity rather than quality. International law is fairly clear on the subject; it's fair game to go after your enemy when he uses human shields. It's his responsibility to protect the noncombatants in his territory. Of course it's in good taste to minimize the damage you cause when you attack an enemy that is hiding among noncombatants. On this count Israel has famously strayed, eg using 2000 lbs bombs in residential neighborhoods, area denial weapons, etc.My advice is to do what your parents did; get a job, sir. The bums will always lose. Do you hear me, Lebowski? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites likearock 2 #74 March 13, 2008 QuoteI understand your frustration. I felt the same way when I started reading more, realized that I was poorly informed and paying to help support an oppressive regime. But to answer your question, I can't show you where an Israeli soldier ran into a classroom and shot a Palestinian child but I can show you where a couple were picked off while looking out of a window or a child was used as a human shield. And to be fair, I also cannot show you where a Palestinian launched an air raid. If you want a more specific list of fatalities the check out this link. You can't get much more specific, but you do have to read. http://www.btselem.org/English/Statistics/Casualties.asp Wow, an Israeli website that documents Palestinian casualties in a way that doesn't celebrate them. What a concept. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Gawain 0 #75 March 13, 2008 QuoteI understand your frustration. I felt the same way when I started reading more, realized that I was poorly informed and paying to help support an oppressive regime. But to answer your question, I can't show you where an Israeli soldier ran into a classroom and shot a Palestinian child but I can show you where a couple were picked off while looking out of a window or a child was used as a human shield. And to be fair, I also cannot show you where a Palestinian launched an air raid. If you want a more specific list of fatalities the check out this link. You can't get much more specific, but you do have to read. http://www.btselem.org/English/Statistics/Casualties.asp With due respect, this site is very informative. However, I am again looking for accounts that illustrate where Israel is acting in a fashion other than a targeted operation, designed to maim and kill as many innocent bystanders as possible. Every time I react to a Palestinian attach on Israel (99% of which are against civilians, not military or political targets), the apologists come out and say, "Yeah, but Israel inflicts far more innocent casualties, every day, and before they kill the poor kids, they pee in their cheerios and leave the freezer open to melt their ice cream" type rant...then present no recorded account of it. While your reference is excellent, I still can get no answer that truly vindicates this strange hatred for the regions only operating, governing democracy (anywhere from Morocco to Saudi Arabia) versus a group of people that have no historical claim to the land they have been offered time, and time again, only to reject every measured peace option.So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright 'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life Make light! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 3 4 5 6 Next Page 3 of 6 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 0 Go To Topic Listing
tbrown 26 #52 March 11, 2008 QuoteUnfortunately most don’t see the Israel government for the racist regime that it is. The Israelis are using the holocaust sympathy that they rightfully deserve to implement the same pain on another group, and they have been doing it for more then 50 years. The facts are there. Indeed the facts ARE there. I'm going to be respectful but forceful about this Darius, because I value your steadfast opinions that go against the norm, but which I frankly disagree with. I have often myself thought that Israelis are themselves racist. Former President Jimmy Carter has himself used the word apartheid to describe the current situation. Up in Seattle, I was friends with an Israeli who deserted from the army and came back to the US because he could no longer take part in the nightly raids on civilians in their homes. But WHY, every time some territory is given back to the Palestinians, does Hamas insist on moving right in and laying down a blanket of rocket fire on inhabited civilian areas that have now come within rocket range ? More to the point, WHY was Hamas passing out candies on the street in Gaza to celebrate a suicide bomber who blew himself and several Israeli civilians up in a civil marketplace ? What's to celebrate about that ? And WHY was there dancing and partying in the streets over somebody who walks into a library and starts shooting religious students at their studies ? I could honestly understand some enthusiasm if the attackers had launched a raid against a military outpost, things like that are expected in war and could even be called "fair". What it comes down to is that when people commit acts like suicide bombing or shooting up a library, people have to decide which side they're going to be on. Hamas has created a war of their own chosing, on a playing field of their own choice. And since they will kill anyone, preferably unarmed civilians, they have also set the rules of the game. So if Israel decides to play along and act in kind with a large scale attack against Gaza, where the fuck do Hamas OR the fucking UN get off condemning it ? I'm not Israeli, or even a Jew, but if I were in the Middle East, my American passport would make me a target, no matter that I support Barak Obama, or have been opposed to the war in Iraq and George Bush all the way back to my vote for Al Gore in 2000. It would make no matter, those people would be happy to kill me, my wife, our daughters. So I'm supposed to have an ounce of sympathy for any of them ? The sides have already been chosen for me and I know which side I'm on. So I'm even willing to overlook Israel's MANY AND EGREGIOUS sins, because they have to fight and be assholes. They have no choice and neither does Western civilization in Europe or America. The truth is that Hamas has already stated they're not interested in peace, or co-existence with Israel in any way, shape, or form. They are committed to the destruction of Israel and willing to kill anyone (especially those least likely to shoot back) to pursue that end. That's an ugly and dangerous kind of enemy and there's only one way to fight an enemy like that. Which is what makes war such a terrible thing. Personally I think Gaza has become enough of a vexation that Israel would be justified in annihilating the city with a fire bombing on the scale of Dresden and just be done with it. It would teach Hamas an object lesson as well and perhaps even make remaining Palestinians on the West Bank re-think who they might vote for in the future. Is this a barbaric proposition ? Yes, it is. It's horrible. But the way things are shaping up, it may be the only realistic solution. Leaders who start wars need to consider the consequences they may bring on their own people. Too many of them don't give it a second thought. Your humble servant.....Professor Gravity ! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Channman 2 #53 March 11, 2008 Quote>The Palestinians cannot self govern. Hamas cannot govern. So what's the solution? Speak Softly, and carry a Big Stick..."peace through strenth." Handle it like your father taught you how to handle a bully at school. Sometimes you got to learn to fight back, and when you have to, you hit them three ways; Fast, Hard and continuously. My father made a comment to me many years ago in reference to Hitler. "There is only two ways to change an evil man, (1) change is heart or (2) Put a bullet through his brain. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Channman 2 #54 March 11, 2008 Quote Quote As opposed to Israel making concessions and the Palestinians demanding more and more and more like we have now, you mean? -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- If you had what the Palestinians currently have I bet you'd want more! Lifes a bitch when you keep attacking a people you hate and they keep kicking your ass. That is the history of the Palistinian people since before Israel was even a state. They have vowed to destroy the state of Israel.. and unfortunately for them... the Israelis have not rolled over and let them win. SOOO they and their Arab surrogates attacked again.. and lost some more ground... and did it again.. several times. The solution is simple dont attack people... especially ones who have specialized in beating you. The palistinians lob rockets across the boarder daily... the Israilis TRY very very hard to target ONLY the Hamas and Hezbollah fighters who DELIBERATLY hide behind their civilians I highlighted that for those of you who refuse to see what the people you are championing do. Your boys target civilians indiscriminately.to them.. a dead jew is a good jew.. and time for celebration.. and keep lobbing rockets..When Israel attacks Hamas gunmen.. to Israelis celebrate with huge parades????? Hell If you want parity.. perhaps Israel should just launch UNTARGETED rocket attacks into anyplace that fires a rocket at THEIR cities..Then yall could whine in a reality based scenario of how the evil Jews are targeting civilians. Damn, did I just walk into a conservative blog from Amazon. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
idrankwhat 0 #55 March 11, 2008 Quote Drill a well, plant a garden, feed your family and lose the hate. They do. But it's hard to eek out an existence when Israeli roadblocks or "security" fences keep you from getting to your field. And it's hard to reap the rewards of your work when the Israeli government forces you to sell your produce to Israel and then may or may not pay you, and if they do it will likely be only a fraction of the previously agreed upon price. Or when you try to bring your food to market the IDF stops your truck at a checkpoint for a week until your food rots. Most of the Palestinians are trying to do you what you're asking of them but they're not being allowed to. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
idrankwhat 0 #56 March 11, 2008 That was a good post. It helps me understand some of your shorter, more pointed responses a lot better. I agree that Hamas' current refusal to recognize Israel and the rocket attacks, which are indeed war crimes, are counter productive to say the least. Where I think we went wrong was when Hamas was elected. We immediately began to isolate them and allowed Israel to target or kidnap a democratically elected leadership. In 2006 Hamas did state that they were willing to recognize Israel in a peace deal under certain conditions, mostly dealing with the 1967 border. That was a (tiny) window of opportunity that was closed rather quickly but it was an indicator that there was room to negotiate. The US and Israel maintained a hard line against Hamas and continue to treat Abbas government as if it was the legitimate leadership. When Hamas took over Gaza much of it had to do with Hamas' view that the Abbas government was corrupt and living a lavish lifestyle while the Palestinians in Gaza suffered due to the blockade. Israel has turned Gaza into a concentration camp. It controls what comes in, what goes out, whether or not people can fish, how much (or little) electricity they get, it bars family members living in Israel from visiting their relatives in Gaza, and Israel maintains a "death zone" around the Gaza perimeter fence that has resulted in at least 284 deaths since 2000, some of which were children as far away as 800 meters. And this is the very short list of issues. And it doesn't help much when Israeli leaders publicly threaten a "holocaust" in Gaza like one did last week. So what it comes down to for me is that Hamas is guilty of war crimes and is a hindrance to peace but I can also understand why a population under extreme stress might regard them as freedom fighters. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Royd 0 #57 March 11, 2008 Drill a well, plant a garden, feed your family and lose the hate. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- QuoteThey do. But it's hard to eek out an existence when Israeli roadblocks or "security" fences keep you from getting to your field. And it's hard to reap the rewards of your work when the Israeli government forces you to sell your produce to Israel and then may or may not pay you, and if they do it will likely be only a fraction of the previously agreed upon price. Or when you try to bring your food to market the IDF stops your truck at a checkpoint for a week until your food rots. Most of the Palestinians are trying to do you what you're asking of them but they're not being allowed to.What does Israel have anything to do with them providing for themselves on their side of the border? Why would you have to do your farming in the enemy's yard? Why do they have to take their produce to Israel? Where's the help from the Arab brothers to get them on their feet, and going in the right direction, instead of continuing to just stir up a hornet's nest, because of a general hate for Israel? Even if we removed all armed conflict from the situation, and the Jews paid them no attention, the Palestinians would still continue to wallow in their victimhood, and be driven by a desire to destroy Israel, instead of grabbing life by the horns and learning to prosper. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
idrankwhat 0 #58 March 11, 2008 QuoteWhat does Israel have anything to do with them providing for themselves on their side of the border? That's what I'd like to know. Quote Why would you have to do your farming in the enemy's yard? They're not. They're farming on their own land but Israel has built a fence/wall outside of the Israeli border, cutting people off from their own property. Sometimes the IDF will let the farmers go work their land, sometimes not. Here's an example: http://www.btselem.org/English/Video/20060130_Separation_Barrier_Testimony_of_Abd_a_Latif_Odeh.asp Quote Why do they have to take their produce to Israel? Because the IDF controls the flow of goods and people in the West Bank. They decide what the Palestinians can and cannot do and it changes from day to day. Quote Where's the help from the Arab brothers to get them on their feet, and going in the right direction, instead of continuing to just stir up a hornet's nest, because of a general hate for Israel? Sometimes the aid is distributed. Sometimes it isn't. That's up to Israel as well. Quote Even if we removed all armed conflict from the situation, and the Jews paid them no attention, the Palestinians would still continue to wallow in their victimhood, and be driven by a desire to destroy Israel, instead of grabbing life by the horns and learning to prosper. That's simply not true. Sure, there would be few who want to be rid of Israel completely and won't stop until they are dead. But there also many Israelis who won't be satisfied until the Palestinians have been driven completely from the West Bank because they believe that it is theirs to take. But the majority of the Palestinians just want to be allowed to determine the course of their own lives. Here's a link to lots of videos on various issues. http://www.btselem.org/English/Video/Index.asp Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Darius11 12 #59 March 11, 2008 Thank you for the thoughtful post I always like honest, respectful debate. I will try to answer all of your questions as honestly as I can IMHO. QuoteBut WHY, every time some territory is given back to the Palestinians, does Hamas insist on moving right in and laying down a blanket of rocket fire on inhabited civilian areas that have now come within rocket range ? I believe most think it is not enough, most think all the land is their land. I view it as someone forcefully taking my house then allowing me to live in the garage under their watch. QuoteMore to the point, WHY was Hamas passing out candies on the street in Gaza to celebrate a suicide bomber who blew himself and several Israeli civilians up in a civil marketplace ? What's to celebrate about that ? Most Palestinians view the Israelis as the main reason for all there misery it is viewed as a victory to kill your enemy by any means necessary (and they do not have many means), and giving candy or sweets is a form of celebration in the middle east. Most Palestinians have a few family members who have been killed, imprisoned, or had their homes bulldozed with out any due process. There is a lot of hate and to me the hate is understandable. QuoteAnd WHY was there dancing and partying in the streets over somebody who walks into a library and starts shooting religious students at their studies ? I don’t think killing any civilians or anyone is ever a good thing. I know the redneck crowed is waiting to jump on anything I say that they can take out of text. Here is the but. But when you have seen Palestinian children killed, imprisoned (I believe Israel has the highest amount of children in prison), Tortured by the same people who you view as the occupiers it is hard to find sympathy for someone who has shown you none. QuoteI could honestly understand some enthusiasm if the attackers had launched a raid against a military outpost, things like that are expected in war and could even be called "fair". Fair is not really a word to use for war. No one wants a fair war they want to be able to annihilate the enemy. I believe you know the Israeli army capabilities, and you know the Palestinians so you already know why they fight the way they do. I have used the US revolutionary solders as an example before. We invented guerrilla warfare because we had a weaker army and could not fight the British in what was viewed as fair or honorable at the time. So our people hid in the bushes and didn’t line up and play the drums. It is about survival and again it comes back to the Israeli army being viewed as an occupying army by most of the world. If it was not viewed that way Israel would just go in and kill anything that moved. It simply was not there land, and it doesn’t make since that Land that the Palestinians were living on was given away because of what Germany did. It doesn’t make since that some Israelis believe God has told them this land is theirs. QuoteWhat it comes down to is that when people commit acts like suicide bombing or shooting up a library, people have to decide which side they're going to be on. Hamas has created a war of their own chosing, on a playing field of their own choice. And since they will kill anyone, preferably unarmed civilians, they have also set the rules of the game. So if Israel decides to play along and act in kind with a large scale attack against Gaza, where the fuck do Hamas OR the fucking UN get off condemning it ? Again killing is killing, and the civilian trade of is about a 100 Palestinian civilians to one Israeli so should we start bombing Israeli right now or should we at least stop sending them our tax dollars? There is way more Inocent blood on Israeli hands then the Palestinians. Why do people jusyfie that? Simple are news and media groups most are on Israeli side and unfortunately most American Jews can’t seem to see past their religion and group mentality to see the facts. This is a true story (you can take me at my word or not that’s up to you). I was listening to NPR when Lebanon/Israeli thing was going on. They spent 45 sec. Talking about one Israeli civilian who had died. Talk about how he loved riding his bike, when he moved to Israel, how many children he had (basically painted a picture). When that was finished on the news report they mentioned 9 civilians killed on the other side but spent about 4 sec just mention the number. What does that tell you? That’s the news most Americans get one sided already decided who is evil and who is not. It funny cause most Americans (who are not already committed to the Israeli fight) that go over there see the same thing. The mistreatment of a group of people, Jews only roads, Jews only jobs. The Palestinians have to be up at 2 am and wait in line so they can go do the jobs that the Israelis do not want to do for shit pay. Imagine that for a sec. That a group takes your land kills your family destroyed your homes, and now the only way to be civil is to spend your whole life working for the very people who took every thing from you. This is why I can understand the hate. When I look at the whole picture of daily Palestinian life I can see why they hate there enemy so much that they are willing to sacrifice there lives. QuoteI'm not Israeli, or even a Jew, but if I were in the Middle East, my American passport would make me a target, no matter that I support Barak Obama, or have been opposed to the war in Iraq and George Bush all the way back to my vote for Al Gore in 2000. It would make no matter, those people would be happy to kill me, my wife, our daughters. So I'm supposed to have an ounce of sympathy for any of them ? Yet many Americans still go to the Middle East and have a good time. Most talk about how friendly the people are, and how good the food is. Simple as you go any where else you respect there culture and you will be fine. QuoteThe sides have already been chosen for me and I know which side I'm on. So I'm even willing to overlook Israel's MANY AND EGREGIOUS sins, because they have to fight and be assholes. They have no choice and neither does Western civilization in Europe or America. I guess that’s why I find ridiculous. I understand if you have chosen the side but whenever I talk to someone who has chosen that side ask for the reasoning they seem to well misinformed. Most talk about civilians dying but have no idea that the west hand is far bloodier then the east. Many have no clue that Israel is viewed as a gross humane rights violator by the rest of the world. Most can understand how we should target people who are helping are enemy but can not see why we are hated for heavily supporting Israel for more then 50 years. It seems people’s morals change to fit there view I think that’s what I have noticed as the mane difference. We have military bases all over the middle east, we have ships and have had ships there for decades with our guns and cruze missals pointed at what ever country we felt like at the moment. How would we feel if the roles were reversed? How would we feel if there were Iranian battle groups out side Florida waters? All these are things to think about if you view things in fair manner. If you have already chosen your side regardless of the facts then why are we even having this discussion? QuoteThe truth is that Hamas has already stated they're not interested in peace, or co-existence with Israel in any way, shape, or form. They are committed to the destruction of Israel and willing to kill anyone (especially those least likely to shoot back) to pursue that end. That's an ugly and dangerous kind of enemy and there's only one way to fight an enemy like that. Which is what makes war such a terrible thing. When Hamass was democratically elected we decided we want democracy but only if our guy wins. Kind of the same bullshit as usual, and never gave them a chance. Then we wonder why? Hypocrisy, Hypocrisy, and Hypocrisy is our foreign policy QuotePersonally I think Gaza has become enough of a vexation that Israel would be justified in annihilating the city with a fire bombing on the scale of Dresden and just be done with it. It would teach Hamas an object lesson as well and perhaps even make remaining Palestinians on the West Bank re-think who they might vote for in the future. Is this a barbaric proposition ? Yes, it is. It's horrible. But the way things are shaping up, it may be the only realistic solution. Leaders who start wars need to consider the consequences they may bring on their own people. Too many of them don't give it a second thought. Well Israel has the power to do so, and I believe they lack the morals not to. The only thing holding them back is world opinion. In most of the world out side the US Israel is viewed as an occupying army and a huge violator of humane right, and UN sanctions. I also believe that Israel is fully aware that such a move might mean their destruction as well. I hope that the world would treat them as Hitler was treated. I don’t believe living trough an atrocity gives you the right to commit atrocities, and I would hope that the world doesn’t sit back and just watch. Millions of inocent people get evaporated and just let it pass i hope not.I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jakee 1,611 #60 March 11, 2008 QuoteWhen was the last time Israel launch indiscriminate rocket attacks with no regard for their impact? When you intentionally target villages and farms with cluster munitions and land mines then you have no regard for their impact.Do you want to have an ideagasm? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Skyrad 0 #61 March 12, 2008 Quotehttp://news.yahoo.com/s/time/20080306/wl_time/deathcomesforisraelsseminarians An attack on teenage seminarians. Many shot at point blank range. The paratrooper that came in and ended this guys life is a hero. So, if Israel were to "turn the cheek", would the Palestinians back down and allow peace talks to continue? I suspect, no. How many times must the olive branch be burned? Israel, I believe, needs to reassess its goals, and standing with the Palestinians. It is pretty clear to me that there is no real desire to co-exist. The Palestinian President Abbas has proved impotent, and Gaza is in the hands of Hamas. The Palestinians cannot self govern. Hamas cannot govern. So what do you sugest Max?When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy. Lucius Annaeus Seneca Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Skyrad 0 #62 March 12, 2008 Quote Quote Quote Doesn't really matter when the rest of them do not raise a finger in protest of anything done in the "name of their religion". Well that's just a lie. Really, then why does Hamas continue to run Gaza? Why does Hezbollah undermine the Government of Lebanon? Why do the Iranians somehow allow themselves to be ruled by isolated mullahs? How is it that Palestinian Authority cannot contain movements in their own West Bank, in Jerusalem? How is it that no one has condemned the killing of Theo van Gogh, or the isolation of Ayaan Hirsi Ali in The Netherlands? Where is the outrage over these kids shot in Jerusalem? How is it that France had to endure over three weeks of riots in nearly 300 cities and towns for fear of cracking down on legitimate criminal behavior? Well, at least there's outrage over a couple of comics. Everyone has their priorities in order. Hell, the Iraqis are doing a better job not putting up with the extremists now. JUst because Hammas is a extreame Islamic group doesn't make their fight an Islamic fight. Its a nationalistic group rather that a Jihadist one regardless of how they spin it at home. Regardless of a shared faith (not forgetting there are several strands of Islamic faith) the Palastinians have been persecuted and killed by Arabs as well as Jews which people tend to forget. Sure its easier to lump anyone brown and Muslim into the same group but thats just lazy and unhelpful. Being a Muslim makes you no more untied in your aims and struggles than being a Christian.When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy. Lucius Annaeus Seneca Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Skyrad 0 #63 March 12, 2008 Quote The thing that really bugs me deeply about the "poor folks" in Gaza is the way they celebrate over these events. The fuckers were out dancing and partying in the streets, into the night, over the killing of these students. Hamas was also standing out in traffic, passing out candies to celebrate a suicide bomber who'd blown up in an israeli marketplace. Then we have to see this boo-hoo propoganda about how miserable they all are in the Gaza dialysis clinic. Fuck these people, they voted for Hamas. Kill 'em all. You liberals crack me up.When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy. Lucius Annaeus Seneca Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Skyrad 0 #64 March 12, 2008 Why is it that Americans only ever pick Palastinian atrocities to condemn? Where is your condemnation of Israeli terror attacks on civillians?When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy. Lucius Annaeus Seneca Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gawain 0 #65 March 12, 2008 QuoteWhy is it that Americans only ever pick Palastinian atrocities to condemn? Where is your condemnation of Israeli terror attacks on civillians? It's not just the US. Had the Arabs used the UN partition plan to their advantage, and declared a nation like Israel did, the US, USSR and a bunch of other countries would have likely recognized them as well. I can find no account of Israel troops staging a raid into Palestinian schools, or a Mosque, shooting kids at point blank range. Everyone keeps bringing this up, and I know the Israel raids into the Palestinian areas. Often innocent bystanders get killed. However, there is rarely a direct account that it was an Israeli soldier that did it...in fact, given the Palestinian militants choice of using AK-47 type weapons, weapons that are not all that accurate, in the hands of people that get next-to-zero training (compared to Israeli soldiers), my money is on an errant bullet shot from the hip of a militant causing more collateral damage. Either way, Israel has taken the high road in the wake of the Seminary attack. I hope it bears real fruit, but I fear that it will not. Sooner or later, peace will arrive through a willing effort, or it will arrive through overwhelming force.So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright 'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life Make light! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Skyrad 0 #66 March 12, 2008 I won't bother posting the very many impartial news accounts and documentarys to be found on you tube that document Israeli attacks on civillian targets. But I do agree with your sentiments that hopefully peace will come to both Palistinians and Jews alike.When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy. Lucius Annaeus Seneca Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
idrankwhat 0 #67 March 12, 2008 Quote Everyone keeps bringing this up, and I know the Israel raids into the Palestinian areas. Often innocent bystanders get killed. However, there is rarely a direct account that it was an Israeli soldier that did it... There are plenty of direct accounts. But you rarely hear about them through the major channels. Quote in fact, given the Palestinian militants choice of using AK-47 type weapons, weapons that are not all that accurate, in the hands of people that get next-to-zero training (compared to Israeli soldiers), my money is on an errant bullet shot from the hip of a militant causing more collateral damage. ra·tion·al·ize (past and past participle ra·tion·al·ized, present participle ra·tion·al·iz·ing, 3rd person present singular ra·tion·al·iz·es) verb Definition: 1. transitive and intransitive verb offer reasonable explanation for something: to attempt to justify behavior normally considered irrational or unacceptable by offering an apparently reasonable explanation Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jakee 1,611 #68 March 12, 2008 Are you actually being intentionally blind now?Do you want to have an ideagasm? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gawain 0 #69 March 12, 2008 QuoteAre you actually being intentionally blind now? No, but apparently you are, reread my post: QuoteI can find no account of Israel troops staging a raid into Palestinian schools, or a Mosque, shooting kids at point blank range. I have repeatedly stated that Israeli raids are well documented. I have found accounts of a 11 year old girl getting shot by militants:http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/3657652.stm I also found this account from 2007, where a 10 year old and 30 year old got killed by an artillery blast, but I think we can agree that is not point blank or intentional: http://www.iht.com/articles/2007/06/27/news/gaza.php I found this one on English al-Jazeera, a teacher was killed when a missile missed its target: http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/A9239A00-5057-4F2E-875A-065987125470.htm And this one, is most recent, about a guy in the West Bank getting killed: http://www.presstv.ir/detail.aspx?id=47124§ionid=351020202 So, again, I ask about when Israel has directly targeted women, children, in schools and mosques, akin to the types of stunts the Palestinians try to pull.So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright 'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life Make light! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jakee 1,611 #70 March 12, 2008 That wasn't your whole post now, was it?Do you want to have an ideagasm? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gawain 0 #71 March 13, 2008 QuoteThat wasn't your whole post now, was it? Whatever man...why don't you point me to some of the stuff that I'm so in the dark about....O enlightened one...So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright 'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life Make light! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
idrankwhat 0 #72 March 13, 2008 I understand your frustration. I felt the same way when I started reading more, realized that I was poorly informed and paying to help support an oppressive regime. But to answer your question, I can't show you where an Israeli soldier ran into a classroom and shot a Palestinian child but I can show you where a couple were picked off while looking out of a window or a child was used as a human shield. And to be fair, I also cannot show you where a Palestinian launched an air raid. If you want a more specific list of fatalities the check out this link. You can't get much more specific, but you do have to read. http://www.btselem.org/English/Statistics/Casualties.asp Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nathaniel 0 #73 March 13, 2008 Quote Why is it that Americans only ever pick Palastinian atrocities to condemn? Where is your condemnation of Israeli terror attacks on civillians? The difference, so far as I can tell, is that Israel is spending millions of dollars to protect citizens on both sides, whereas Hamas et al go to lengths to blend in and cause civilian causalties on both sides. Israeli develops smart bombs, Hamas focuses on quantity rather than quality. International law is fairly clear on the subject; it's fair game to go after your enemy when he uses human shields. It's his responsibility to protect the noncombatants in his territory. Of course it's in good taste to minimize the damage you cause when you attack an enemy that is hiding among noncombatants. On this count Israel has famously strayed, eg using 2000 lbs bombs in residential neighborhoods, area denial weapons, etc.My advice is to do what your parents did; get a job, sir. The bums will always lose. Do you hear me, Lebowski? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
likearock 2 #74 March 13, 2008 QuoteI understand your frustration. I felt the same way when I started reading more, realized that I was poorly informed and paying to help support an oppressive regime. But to answer your question, I can't show you where an Israeli soldier ran into a classroom and shot a Palestinian child but I can show you where a couple were picked off while looking out of a window or a child was used as a human shield. And to be fair, I also cannot show you where a Palestinian launched an air raid. If you want a more specific list of fatalities the check out this link. You can't get much more specific, but you do have to read. http://www.btselem.org/English/Statistics/Casualties.asp Wow, an Israeli website that documents Palestinian casualties in a way that doesn't celebrate them. What a concept. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gawain 0 #75 March 13, 2008 QuoteI understand your frustration. I felt the same way when I started reading more, realized that I was poorly informed and paying to help support an oppressive regime. But to answer your question, I can't show you where an Israeli soldier ran into a classroom and shot a Palestinian child but I can show you where a couple were picked off while looking out of a window or a child was used as a human shield. And to be fair, I also cannot show you where a Palestinian launched an air raid. If you want a more specific list of fatalities the check out this link. You can't get much more specific, but you do have to read. http://www.btselem.org/English/Statistics/Casualties.asp With due respect, this site is very informative. However, I am again looking for accounts that illustrate where Israel is acting in a fashion other than a targeted operation, designed to maim and kill as many innocent bystanders as possible. Every time I react to a Palestinian attach on Israel (99% of which are against civilians, not military or political targets), the apologists come out and say, "Yeah, but Israel inflicts far more innocent casualties, every day, and before they kill the poor kids, they pee in their cheerios and leave the freezer open to melt their ice cream" type rant...then present no recorded account of it. While your reference is excellent, I still can get no answer that truly vindicates this strange hatred for the regions only operating, governing democracy (anywhere from Morocco to Saudi Arabia) versus a group of people that have no historical claim to the land they have been offered time, and time again, only to reject every measured peace option.So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright 'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life Make light! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
