America a dim-bulb nation

[Amazon 7]

SO basically you are good with Bible Thumper Education ... I get it all now...you must be one of those people who believes the earth is what.. 7800 years old and that is all we really need to know.

[mirage62 0]

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I don't recall seeing such an attitude to the same extent when I started teaching in the late '60s.

You weren't stoned in the 60's?

Kevin Keenan is my hero, a double FUP, he does so much with so little

[lawrocket 3]

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SO basically you are good with Bible Thumper Education

I think people should make up their own minds. I personally find it laughable, but that's just me.

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you must be one of those people who believes the earth is what.. 7800 years old and that is all we really need to know

The anti-rationalist argument required rationalism on your part, Jeanne.

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[kallend 2,147]

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I don't recall seeing such an attitude to the same extent when I started teaching in the late '60s.

You weren't stoned in the 60's?

Only when absolutely necessary.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[mnealtx 0]

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SO basically you are good with Bible Thumper Education ... I get it all now...you must be one of those people who believes the earth is what.. 7800 years old and that is all we really need to know.

Bzzzt - wrong, try again.

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[Amazon 7]

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Bzzzt - wrong, try again.

But Mike.. you vilify the NEA for trying to teach young people their way....then you praise the way far right wing religious groups have taken over school boards across the country( one of Pat Robertsons initiatives I remember from watching the 700 Club) to control the schools to teach THEIR version of the right way....so you tell me.. whats a girl to think when I read that????

[champu 1]

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One of my favorite quotes from the Ivy League Professor's book, which may reflect my approach to Speakers Corner as well:
"The questions are all there. They only need to be addressed continuously and seriously for liberal learning to exist; for it does not consist so much in answers as in the permanent dialogue."

I look back at my elementary school education, and the various special programs I found myself funneled into, as a bit of a curiosity. (btw, if there was any doubt, it's remarkably difficult to play down how big of a nerd you are during unpleasant encounters with large groups of "cool" kids when even the school administration has labeled you thus.) I remember being given sudoku puzzles in first grade. (although instead of numbers it was different colored bears to be pasted onto a grid.) I remember all sorts of logic puzzles and homework assignments such as, "invent something" in third grade.

In fifth grade (I'm getting to my point, bear with me) we had an interesting exercise that your quote reminds me of. We'd read the first chapter of a story, then answer questions about what we thought was going on or what we thought about particular characters' traits. Then we'd read another chapter and answer another round of questions. At the end of the story we'd have to write a paper not about the story, but about why we thought our answers changed.

The curiousity I have is why I loved all this kind of stuff and completely ate it up while my contemporaries (even many who were in the programs with me) didn't seem to enjoy it.

[mnealtx 0]

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Bzzzt - wrong, try again.

But Mike.. you vilify the NEA for trying to teach young people their way....then you praise the way far right wing religious groups have taken over school boards across the country( one of Pat Robertsons initiatives I remember from watching the 700 Club) to control the schools to teach THEIR version of the right way....so you tell me.. whats a girl to think when I read that????

Show me where I've "praised the way the far right wing religious groups have taken over school boards"... please, do.

As I said in another thread - don't place YOUR biases upon ME.

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[lawrocket 3]

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But Mike.. you vilify the NEA for trying to teach young people their way....then you praise the way far right wing religious groups have taken over school boards across the country( one of Pat Robertsons initiatives I remember from watching the 700 Club) to control the schools to teach THEIR version of the right way....so you tell me.. whats a girl to think when I read that????

Part of it, Jeanne, is that the local population has better control over school boards. Don't like what they're doing? Vote them out.

Compare and contract to the NEA - a union of teachers. Also the largest union in the nation. Now, who does the Union represent? Students? Nope. Administrators? Nope. The people? Nope.

They represent teachers - specifically teachers at public schools. Thus, they have a primary interest to oppose: 1) vouchers; 2) merit-based incentives; and 3) termination of lousy teachers. In a sense, they are there to help ensure that teachers have supreme job security.

Teachers do not make policy. Teachers implement policy. Their policy is to get every kid in public school, thus increasing the union's power.

The union acts in its own best interests - not what it believes is in the best interests of the children (except to the extent that it believes that IT is in the best interests of children).

The school boards you speak of are a joke. However, there is much more popular oversight of them.

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[Amazon 7]

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They represent teachers - specifically teachers at public schools. Thus, they have a primary interest to oppose: 1) vouchers;(BAD IDEA I applaud them) 2) merit-based incentives;( yes there are idiots everywhere...including NEA) and 3) termination of lousy teachers. ;( yes there are idiots everywhere...including NEA) In a sense, they are there to help ensure that teachers have supreme job security.

Added a few things there

Overall the NEA has done an almost insurmountable job of educating a nation of idiots. There is some semblance of a curricula across the country.. and I think you do them a HUGE disservice when you paint all of them with the brush you did. There are a HELL of a lot of NEA members..( underpaid and overworked ones at that) who really DO give a damn about their students and educating the next generation. Education was taken from a hodge podge of some districts being really good to many districts that you still find in the south that dont provide very much incentive to learn anything more than the 3 R's ( in the vernacular of the Idiocracy). At least the NEA has TRIED to better the state of education in this country... especially when you have so many right wingers who want their kids out of the grasp of educators.. and get free money from the government to educate their children at home... like my cousins did with their children. What they ended up with is kids who know scripture and verse... have the social skills of hermits.. and are fully prepared for life in the 19th century. It really is too bad that my younger cousins are going to have to live with other human beings who have been prepared for life in the 21st century.


I spent 9 years in parochial schools, my mother who raised me herself paid for that education herself. If someone wants that education in a private school they too can pay for it themselves. I do admit.. my school was far better than the public schools my friends went to. BUT that parochial school taught far more than just bible studies. The classes I took in grade school had already taught me many of the subjects that my high school teachers were trying to teach the other students. I skated thru HS very very easily.

There still is no equality in school districts across the country in terms of learning.. but it would be far worse if it were not for the job your much hated NEA does to TRY to educate our young people. You only need to look at the average IQ based on the various states.. and where the RED states fall as opposed to the Blue States. Give the school systems over to the right wing rubes on school boards controlled by idiots and those scores will drop even farther into the abyss of stupidity.

[lawrocket 3]

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Overall the NEA has done an almost insurmountable job of educating a nation of idiots.

No, teachers paying dues to the NEA who operate under curricula set by the various governments have done the job.

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and I think you do them a HUGE disservice when you paint all of them with the brush you did.

WHy? Much like the disservice you paint to school boards? I've stated what the union's purpose it.

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There are a HELL of a lot of NEA members

Yes. 3.2 million or so.

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underpaid

But make enough to pay dues.

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who really DO give a damn about their students and educating the next generation

Yes. This is the vast majority of teachers.

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Education was taken from a hodge podge of some districts being really good to many districts that you still find in the south that dont provide very much incentive to learn anything more than the 3 R's

Adn yet, performance on the 3 R's has been plummetting, perhaps because of the lack of focus on these subjects.

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At least the NEA has TRIED to better the state of education in this country

And Bush TRIED to make the world a safer place. I don't give a shit about motives. I look at results.

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especially when you have so many right wingers who want their kids out of the grasp of educators

Like me? Nice choice of words - "Grasp." That's my problem. Don't GRASP them. Teach them.

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What they ended up with is kids who know scripture and verse... have the social skills of hermits..

Perhaps public schools should be teaching to understand and respect these kids. Nope. Not worth it.

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It really is too bad that my younger cousins are going to have to live with other human beings who have been prepared for life in the 21st century

Yep. And you can blame the parents. What about those kids who can't pass exit exams? Who do we blame?

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do admit.. my school was far better than the public schools my friends went to.

So would you support vouchers to send kids there? THAT is the question, Jeanne. The NEA would be against it.

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I skated thru HS very very easily

That sucks. They didn't challenge you. Wouldn't it have been cool to actually learn things there?

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There still is no equality in school districts across the country in terms of learning.

True.

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only need to look at the average IQ based on the various states.. and where the RED states fall as opposed to the Blue States.

What the????

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Give the school systems over to the right wing rubes on school boards controlled by idiots and those scores will drop even farther into the abyss of stupidity.

Versus those who went to school like you did. Oh, wait...

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[nerdgirl 0]

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One of my favorite quotes from the Ivy League Professor's book, which may reflect my approach to Speakers Corner as well:
"The questions are all there. They only need to be addressed continuously and seriously for liberal learning to exist; for it does not consist so much in answers as in the permanent dialogue."

In fifth grade (I'm getting to my point, bear with me) we had an interesting exercise that your quote reminds me of. We'd read the first chapter of a story, then answer questions about what we thought was going on or what we thought about particular characters' traits. Then we'd read another chapter and answer another round of questions. At the end of the story we'd have to write a paper not about the story, but about why we thought our answers changed.

Interesting approach. I may try that as an exercise. Thanks.

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The curiousity I have is why I loved all this kind of stuff and completely ate it up while my contemporaries (even many who were in the programs with me) didn't seem to enjoy it.

That’s a provocative question – I’ve wondered it too.
One might speculate that there may have been some minority of others who enjoyed it but weren’t comfortable/confident enough to admit it ‘cause even among nerds there is hierarchy … might think that I’m a ‘dweeb’… > or that there were things you disliked just as much but don’t remember now.

What I try to take from those kinds of experiences -- or at least the ones that I had -- is a motivation to do something and to be a role model for those kind of kids. Britney Spears, Snoop Dogg, etc. don’t have to be the only ‘role models.’ Sometimes the ‘tyranny of the now’ can *seem* insurmountable, especially for young teens who aren’t “cool”; just offering a possible future that they don’t get to see on tv/movies/internet/gym class/etc can be incredibly powerful. “You get to do that?” “You’re traveling where? Wow!” Being a geek/nerd as an adult can be really cool. And women like guys who can fix things.

VR/Marg

Act as if everything you do matters, while laughing at yourself for thinking anything you do matters.
Tibetan Buddhist saying

[Royd 0]

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And women like guys who can fix things.

At the end of the day,though, they still want a song and dance man.

[skydyvr 0]

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>What liberals (who control public schools in this country) have done to fuck up education . . .

Both my parents were teachers; they were both quite liberal (by both the dictionary definition and by their own political self-description.) My mother brought computer-based writing classes to her high school - there's a writing center named after her now. My father was principal of one of the more violent high schools on Long Island. He spent much of his time there fighting a conservative school board to get funding for basics like security, desks, heater repairs etc.

So from my personal experience, liberals don't "fuck up" education.

At a larger level, the democrats claim that conservatives want to cut funding for education to give the rich their tax cuts, want to teach creationism instead of science, and would rather have kids praying to their god instead of learning. Conservatives claim that liberals want to teach self esteem instead of math, science and english, and would rather everyone just get a medal instead of learning anything.

Which is right? Well, both are to a similar degree - which is to say, not much at all. I think if you knew many teachers you'd understand that their politics don't much enter into their desire to teach.

I hesitated in replying to this becasue I realized I was coming across with a too-simplistic "it's all the liberal's fault" attitude, and I know better than that.

I guess one way to look at problems in education and culture today is that "liberals" do drive some changes that are not good. But at the same time, "conservatives" impede some changes that are good.

. . =(_8^(1)

[mnealtx 0]

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I guess one way to look at problems in education and culture today is that "liberals" do drive some changes that are not good. But at the same time, "conservatives" impede some changes that are good.

Agreed.

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706