rickjump1 0 #26 February 28, 2008 Quote>Yesterday, my wife and I were in the grocery store and 1-qt. of >strawberries was $6.39! We passed on the strawberies. And that's the underlying reason "just send em all home" will end up failing. Local crops will go unsold, farmers will go out of business, the economy will slump further - until someone agrees to "look the other way" (just until the farmer gets back on his feet, of course.) Meanwhile, consumers will continue to buy the $4 bag o strawberries instead of the $8 100%-american-picked strawberries - and the farmers who _are_ trying to play by the rules will lose their farms. Nobody gets subsidized like the American farmer. First it's federal money and now it's illegal labor. Maybe some of the corporate farms need to fail with such a large pool of illegal labor and millions in aid. Things will adjust. Who knows, maybe the smaller family farms will prevail. Nobody ran out of organge jucice and grapfruit after Eisenhower sent them home. Maybe American kids will pick fruit after school. I did as a kid in California. Visiting a farmers market might be more productive than going to Walmart. I just bought a doz eggs from a little old lady in the middle of Montana. She has no illegal help and she modestly and proudly survives by herself. Markets adjust.Do your part for global warming: ban beans and hold all popcorn farts. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SBS 0 #27 February 28, 2008 QuoteThey get paid wages I don't want to work for, but they are subject to minimum wage laws as well as health and safety regs. This is an interesting point of view, because I think it's common that people believe that undocumented workers work for less than minimum wage and do not have health benefits. Speaking for the farm where I worked, they made minimally minimum wage, while making significantly more in the height of the season. Basically they pay hourly when the volume is relatively low, and when it is highest, they pay by the box. The day the per box pay starts, you literally see people running up and down the field with 2 or 3 boxes on their shoulder all day long. It's absolutely amazing. I have never seen such hard work. They didn't have health insurance from the company, and there's no 401k, but they are covered by workman's comp, just like anyone else._____________ I'm not conceited...I'm just realistic about my awesomeness... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,116 #28 February 28, 2008 > Nobody gets subsidized like the American farmer. There are subsidies for a lot of american industries - farming, oil (billion dollar tax breaks/grants) timber (free roads, access to public land) mining (mineral rights) etc etc. It's intended in part to keep jobs here instead of letting them go to Canada/Mexico/China. It's obviously not working 100%, but get rid of all the subsidies and you'd see a lot of those industries leaving the US even more quickly. So make sure you're OK with that first. It might well be a good idea overall, but the recession/depression it would cause initially, and the long term loss of US jobs, would be unpopular. >Maybe some of the corporate farms need to fail with such a large pool >of illegal labor and millions in aid. Smaller farms get hit a lot harder by loss of immigrant labor since they are currently not required to pay minimum wage and/or overtime. (Some big ones do this as well, but it's a big risk for them.) >Visiting a farmers market might be more productive than going to >Walmart. Better for the local community? Cleaner in terms of pesticides used, energy consumed and pollution generated? Safer in terms of being able to track back where food comes from? Definitely. But cheaper? No. That's the problem - that most people in the US buy on the basis of price. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SBS 0 #29 February 28, 2008 Quote Nobody gets subsidized like the American farmer. First it's federal money and now it's illegal labor. Maybe some of the corporate farms need to fail with such a large pool of illegal labor and millions in aid. Things will adjust. Who knows, maybe the smaller family farms will prevail. Nobody ran out of organge jucice and grapfruit after Eisenhower sent them home. Maybe American kids will pick fruit after school. I did as a kid in California. Visiting a farmers market might be more productive than going to Walmart. I just bought a doz eggs from a little old lady in the middle of Montana. She has no illegal help and she modestly and proudly survives by herself. Markets adjust. That would be awesome, if we all lived next door to a farm and could afford the time to go pick our own fruit. We could slaughter our own meat too. I can see the guy in LA walking out of work saying "no, can't go to the movie, gotta run down to Irvine to pick some strawberries", or in San Francisco, "sorry, maybe tomorrow, I have to go to Watsonville to get some artichokes". Where are the people in NYC going to get their produce? What about restaurants? Commerce was created to distribute product. Industry can focus on providing, and consumers can focus on what they are good at. Restaurants can focus on serving their customers, not harvesting their food. Sure, they each can have a department that does that, and then someone will come along and figure out that it is incredibly inefficient, and consolidate into a central entity that acts as the source for all of the local restaurants. Then they will see the opportunity to distribute to stores to get in on the growing consumer market. They'll be buying so much food that the farms are going to have to hire people to pick. I think this is about where we started this conversation, right?_____________ I'm not conceited...I'm just realistic about my awesomeness... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
masterrig 1 #30 February 28, 2008 Quote>Yesterday, my wife and I were in the grocery store and 1-qt. of >strawberries was $6.39! We passed on the strawberies. And that's the underlying reason "just send em all home" will end up failing. Local crops will go unsold, farmers will go out of business, the economy will slump further - until someone agrees to "look the other way" (just until the farmer gets back on his feet, of course.) Meanwhile, consumers will continue to buy the $4 bag o strawberries instead of the $8 100%-american-picked strawberries - and the farmers who _are_ trying to play by the rules will lose their farms. The American farmer doesn't set the prices at the grocery stores. The farmer gets what the buyer is offering. What we need to do is get some form of worker program where after the crops are picked they go home for the winter and hit it another lick in spring. Noone would have to turn a blind eye or any of that. I stiil think, the Brazero system was not all that bad. The farmers liked it and it worked. What we have today is a bunch of 'over thinking, politically correct' politicians passing out new laws. We have some good laws on the books... they just need to be enforced. Chuck Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,116 #31 February 28, 2008 >That would be awesome, if we all lived next door to a farm and could >afford the time to go pick our own fruit. We live in San Diego and we grow our own lemons, limes, oranges, beans and avocados. (Tomatoes in summer.) We get most of our vegetables from a local farm. It's not next door. >I can see the guy in LA walking out of work saying "no, can't go to the >movie, gotta run down to Irvine to pick some strawberries" Or "sorry, can't work this weekend, I have to drive 90 minutes each way to go skydiving." I would bet you that most people live closer to a farm than they live to a drop zone. But in any case you don't have to drive. Many CSA's deliver. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rickjump1 0 #32 February 28, 2008 Quote> Nobody gets subsidized like the American farmer. There are subsidies for a lot of american industries - farming, oil (billion dollar tax breaks/grants) timber (free roads, access to public land) mining (mineral rights) etc etc. It's intended in part to keep jobs here instead of letting them go to Canada/Mexico/China. It's obviously not working 100%, but get rid of all the subsidies and you'd see a lot of those industries leaving the US even more quickly.Quote Subsidies (in part) are for American workers; not for some excuse to employ those here illegally. So make sure you're OK with that first. It might well be a good idea overall, but the recession/depression it would cause initially, and the long term loss of US jobs, would be unpopular. Unpopular? Nobody said it would be popular. It certainly wasn't popular to those who employed them under Eisenhower. Initially, the market would shake, and like the airline industry, some would fall. >Maybe some of the corporate farms need to fail with such a large pool >of illegal labor and millions in aid. Smaller farms get hit a lot harder by loss of immigrant labor since they are currently not required to pay minimum wage and/or overtime. (Some big ones do this as well, but it's a big risk for them.)Quote The American family farmer is resilient enough to change. I knew successful cattle farmers in Arkansas who had no illegal help until Clinton and Huckabee let the state fill up with illegals. Additionally, the price of chicken never went down when Tyson started using illegals. When the Border Patrol raided chicken plants, a lot of low wage American workers came out of the wood work. >Visiting a farmers market might be more productive than going to >Walmart. Better for the local community? Cleaner in terms of pesticides used, energy consumed and pollution generated? Safer in terms of being able to track back where food comes from? Definitely.Quote It might also eliminate the middle man. I could not understand why rice produced in Arkansas cost less in California, and now (in Montana) apples from Washington are more expensive than far away Arkansas. I think it's the middle man. But cheaper? No. That's the problem - that most people in the US buy on the basis of price. That is correct, and the market adjusts.Do your part for global warming: ban beans and hold all popcorn farts. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites rickjump1 0 #33 February 28, 2008 How did all these people get their produce to market before we started filling up with cheap illegal labor? The price of food never came down. I would be willing to pay more for food produced with legal workers being paid minimum wage. Having slave labor will bite us in the butt; not forgetting the criminals and ones who will not work. We pay in the end.Do your part for global warming: ban beans and hold all popcorn farts. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites rickjump1 0 #34 February 28, 2008 QuoteQuote>Yesterday, my wife and I were in the grocery store and 1-qt. of >strawberries was $6.39! We passed on the strawberies. And that's the underlying reason "just send em all home" will end up failing. Local crops will go unsold, farmers will go out of business, the economy will slump further - until someone agrees to "look the other way" (just until the farmer gets back on his feet, of course.) Meanwhile, consumers will continue to buy the $4 bag o strawberries instead of the $8 100%-american-picked strawberries - and the farmers who _are_ trying to play by the rules will lose their farms. The American farmer doesn't set the prices at the grocery stores. The farmer gets what the buyer is offering. What we need to do is get some form of worker program where after the crops are picked they go home for the winter and hit it another lick in spring. Noone would have to turn a blind eye or any of that. I stiil think, the Brazero system was not all that bad. The farmers liked it and it worked. What we have today is a bunch of 'over thinking, politically correct' politicians passing out new laws. We have some good laws on the books... they just need to be enforced. Chuck Good solution, and it has worked before. All we need is the moral leadership. Repeating again: we did not starve when Eisenhower sent them home before.Do your part for global warming: ban beans and hold all popcorn farts. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites billvon 3,116 #35 February 28, 2008 > Subsidies (in part) are for American workers; not for some excuse >to employ those here illegally. Well, no. At the most basic level, subsidies are there to make people vote for politicians. Oil companies lobby for oil tax breaks out of greed (they want to pay less tax and therefore make more money) and farmers, miners and timber execs do the same thing. The rationale usually floated for this is to help out american industry. You can think that "subsidies should not be used to hire illegal immigrants" and I agree. But there's no inherent relationship between subsidies and illegal immigrants. >That is correct, and the market adjusts. Right. That's what I am saying. The market adjusts. The small farmers go out of business, and the massive factory farms that supply Wal-Mart take up the slack. That's been happening for a while now. Whether that's a good thing or not depends on your point of view, I suppose. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites rickjump1 0 #36 February 28, 2008 Quote> Subsidies (in part) are for American workers; not for some excuse >to employ those here illegally. Well, no. At the most basic level, subsidies are there to make people vote for politicians. Oil companies lobby for oil tax breaks out of greed (they want to pay less tax and therefore make more money) and farmers, miners and timber execs do the same thing. The rationale usually floated for this is to help out american industry. You can think that "subsidies should not be used to hire illegal immigrants" and I agree. But there's no inherent relationship between subsidies and illegal immigrants.Quote Ok; no relationship with subsidies. Thankfully, congress has been trying to adjust subsidies in favor of the family farmers. >That is correct, and the market adjusts. Right. That's what I am saying. The market adjusts. The small farmers go out of business, and the massive factory farms that supply Wal-Mart take up the slack. That's been happening for a while now. Whether that's a good thing or not depends on your point of view, I suppose. If the massive factory farms and the small farmers both employ "legally" documented workers wouldn't things remain constant between them? Ever been a pea picker? Regardless of the outcome, I see more people seeking out the smaller markets and buying directly from the family farms when possible. I think it's a trend to continue for people who value what they eat.Do your part for global warming: ban beans and hold all popcorn farts. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites masterrig 1 #37 February 28, 2008 QuoteQuoteQuote>Yesterday, my wife and I were in the grocery store and 1-qt. of >strawberries was $6.39! We passed on the strawberies. And that's the underlying reason "just send em all home" will end up failing. Local crops will go unsold, farmers will go out of business, the economy will slump further - until someone agrees to "look the other way" (just until the farmer gets back on his feet, of course.) Meanwhile, consumers will continue to buy the $4 bag o strawberries instead of the $8 100%-american-picked strawberries - and the farmers who _are_ trying to play by the rules will lose their farms. The American farmer doesn't set the prices at the grocery stores. The farmer gets what the buyer is offering. What we need to do is get some form of worker program where after the crops are picked they go home for the winter and hit it another lick in spring. Noone would have to turn a blind eye or any of that. I stiil think, the Brazero system was not all that bad. The farmers liked it and it worked. What we have today is a bunch of 'over thinking, politically correct' politicians passing out new laws. We have some good laws on the books... they just need to be enforced. Chuck Good solution, and it has worked before. All we need is the moral leadership. Repeating again: we did not starve when Eisenhower sent them home before. I've spoken with a lot of farmers over the years and they've all said they wish, they would bring back the Brasero system. The farmers went to a location, told them how many workers they needed and they went back to the farm. Farmers did, have to supply shelter for the workers but, the system worked. Chuck Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kallend 2,148 #38 February 28, 2008 Quote So how much do you suppose wages would have to increase to motivate Joe Blow Outta Work to get out into a field and pick berries? Chuck How many people fall into the category of refusing to work? Mnealtx keeps going on about them too, but he always ducks the question when asked how big of a problem it really is.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites SBS 0 #39 February 28, 2008 Quote How did all these people get their produce to market before we started filling up with cheap illegal labor? I don't know. QuoteI would be willing to pay more for food produced with legal workers being paid minimum wage. A) Legal workers would not do this for minimum wage unless we are talking about making those who are now illegal legal. B) They are already paid minimum wage or more. QuoteHaving slave labor will bite us in the butt; not forgetting the criminals and ones who will not work. We pay in the end. We are talking about immigrants, not slave labor. I would consider this a significantly different discussion if we were talking about people who were making $3 or $4 an hour or nothing at all._____________ I'm not conceited...I'm just realistic about my awesomeness... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites billvon 3,116 #40 February 28, 2008 > If the massive factory farms and the small farmers both employ >"legally" documented workers wouldn't things remain constant between >them? Well: 1) Right now small farmers have exemptions that basically allow them to pay next to nothing for labor. If you had all farms employ the same laborers and pay them similar wages, then small farmers are at more of a disadvantage than they are now. 2) All things being equal, larger farms have economies of scale working for them. >Ever been a pea picker? Not as a job! Although I did pick about two pounds of peas last week. >Regardless of the outcome, I see more people seeking out the smaller >markets and buying directly from the family farms when possible. I think >it's a trend to continue for people who value what they eat. I hope that does continue as a trend. The economics are against it, but perhaps there's getting to be more perceived value in local farms. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites masterrig 1 #41 February 28, 2008 QuoteQuote So how much do you suppose wages would have to increase to motivate Joe Blow Outta Work to get out into a field and pick berries? Chuck How many people fall into the category of refusing to work? Mnealtx keeps going on about them too, but he always ducks the question when asked how big of a problem it really is. Have you looked at the welfare rolls lately? There's too many people who would not do 'manual labor'. Too many people who are afraid to get their hands dirty. Seems like, this country has produced a nation of over-achievers only willing to start at the top. The old days of working your way up the ladder seems to have faded into history. Recently, some of the larger 'chain' stores had to 'import' people from branch stores in other states because they couldn't get help. Yet, there were no teenagers taking summer jobs. Chuck Chuck Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites rickjump1 0 #42 February 28, 2008 QuoteQuote How did all these people get their produce to market before we started filling up with cheap illegal labor? I don't know. QuoteI would be willing to pay more for food produced with legal workers being paid minimum wage. A) Legal workers would not do this for minimum wage unless we are talking about making those who are now illegal legal. B) They are already paid minimum wage or more.QuoteIf they are already paid the minimum wage, I am wrong. They are still here illegally and can return legally under one of the guest worker programs and go home after harvest. QuoteHaving slave labor will bite us in the butt; not forgetting the criminals and ones who will not work. We pay in the end. We are talking about immigrants, not slave labor. I would consider this a significantly different discussion if we were talking about people who were making $3 or $4 an hour or nothing at all.We are talking about "illegal" immigrants; not legal immigrants. If I'm mistaken about how much they do make, I've learned something. Fact is they are here illegally and should be deported. Like I said, they can come back under a guest worker program. Criminals and those who don't want to work can stay home.Do your part for global warming: ban beans and hold all popcorn farts. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites SBS 0 #43 February 28, 2008 QuoteWe live in San Diego and we grow our own lemons, limes, oranges, beans and avocados. (Tomatoes in summer.) We get most of our vegetables from a local farm. It's not next door. More power to you. I don't have room on my apartment balcony for a lemon tree. I have tried to grow stuff and I can't do it for crap. In any event, as a society we did the grow your own food thing for centuries and the local farm, etc. The local video store was owned by a local family, Blockbuster was not a factor. Starbucks replaced the local coffee house, and McDonalds is the new local family owned hamburger stand. Through our actions we have changed the way things are done...why do we want to go back? Why can't we just let the machine work and go about our lives? QuoteOr "sorry, can't work this weekend, I have to drive 90 minutes each way to go skydiving." I would bet you that most people live closer to a farm than they live to a drop zone. I don't see the relevance. Because we elect to drive 90 minutes to pursue our hobby on the weekend, we should be ok with driving 30 minutes to a local farm to get our produce? I choose to spend my time on other endeavors and take advantage of the infrastructure that has been built to afford me the opportunity to do so. Quote But in any case you don't have to drive. Many CSA's deliver. I'm sure that's not expensive...and how inefficient would that be to have someone deliver a bunch of asparagus, a head of lettuce, and 2 apples? BTW, as far as supporting your local farmer and screwing the big guys, where do we think the big guys get their produce? Those little guys have contracts with the big guys to provide fruit and vegetables...you kill the big guys, you kill the little guys. Sure, there are some who wouldn't mind going and selling a few hundred boxes at a local market, but their bread and butter is the contracts that they have to provide thousands to the Driscoll's and the Naturipes, etc._____________ I'm not conceited...I'm just realistic about my awesomeness... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites SBS 0 #44 February 28, 2008 QuoteWe are talking about "illegal" immigrants; not legal immigrants. If I'm mistaken about how much they do make, I've learned something. The ones that I have known have been paid minimum wage or higher, and have paid more in taxes than those who make a similar wage who are legal due to the fact that if they were legal they would be able to be refunded the taxes that had been withheld from their paychecks. QuoteFact is they are here illegally and should be deported. Like I said, they can come back under a guest worker program. Criminals and those who don't want to work can stay home. Agreed in principle. My argument is that in practice it is not that simple. As Chuck pointed out, we live in a society where people are afraid to get their hands dirty and "want to start at the top". The notion that the labor is just going to appear is ridiculous. It's equally ridiculous to think that people will not have a problem paying significantly higher prices that will result from higher labor costs. It's nice to say, but the reality is that people already have problems paying the prices as they stand today. And not yet mentioned is the question "what are we going to bitch about when they are gone?" What's going to be the next scapegoat of "what's wrong with our society" if we no longer have this argument? I don't know that I have EVER seen statistics of the negative impact that illegal immigrants have on our economy. I would be interested if someone does have some._____________ I'm not conceited...I'm just realistic about my awesomeness... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mnealtx 0 #45 February 28, 2008 QuoteQuote So how much do you suppose wages would have to increase to motivate Joe Blow Outta Work to get out into a field and pick berries? Chuck How many people fall into the category of refusing to work? Mnealtx keeps going on about them too, but he always ducks the question when asked how big of a problem it really is. In my instance, however, I can speak from personal knowledge of people I knew doing just that - when are you going to provide anything past your "300k stolen guns/year" in regards to chain of custody, etc?Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kallend 2,148 #46 February 28, 2008 QuoteQuoteQuote So how much do you suppose wages would have to increase to motivate Joe Blow Outta Work to get out into a field and pick berries? Chuck How many people fall into the category of refusing to work? Mnealtx keeps going on about them too, but he always ducks the question when asked how big of a problem it really is. Have you looked at the welfare rolls lately? There's too many people who would not do 'manual labor'. Too many people who are afraid to get their hands dirty. Seems like, this country has produced a nation of over-achievers only willing to start at the top. The old days of working your way up the ladder seems to have faded into history. Recently, some of the larger 'chain' stores had to 'import' people from branch stores in other states because they couldn't get help. Yet, there were no teenagers taking summer jobs. Chuck Chuck So what fraction of the welfare rolls are people who REFUSE to work? I continue to hear griping about them; I'd like to know the MAGNITUDE of the problem. Were the teenagers who didn't take summer jobs on welfare or is that a red herring?... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites masterrig 1 #47 February 28, 2008 Quote Quote Quote Quote So how much do you suppose wages would have to increase to motivate Joe Blow Outta Work to get out into a field and pick berries? Chuck How many people fall into the category of refusing to work? Mnealtx keeps going on about them too, but he always ducks the question when asked how big of a problem it really is. Have you looked at the welfare rolls lately? There's too many people who would not do 'manual labor'. Too many people who are afraid to get their hands dirty. Seems like, this country has produced a nation of over-achievers only willing to start at the top. The old days of working your way up the ladder seems to have faded into history. Recently, some of the larger 'chain' stores had to 'import' people from branch stores in other states because they couldn't get help. Yet, there were no teenagers taking summer jobs. Chuck Chuck So what fraction of the welfare rolls are people who REFUSE to work? I continue to hear griping about them; I'd like to know the MAGNITUDE of the problem. Were the teenagers who didn't take summer jobs on welfare or is that a red herring? Most of the teens who didn't have summer jobs, had daddys with fat walets. When i hear folks say they are waiting on the government to do this or that for them and they 'appear' physically able to work, I do wonder about that. Not just folks I hear being interviewed by some reporter but people I've met. The biggest excuse I've heard was 'back problems'. That's the oldest excuse in the world.Chuck Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kallend 2,148 #48 February 28, 2008 Quote Quote Quote Quote Quote So how much do you suppose wages would have to increase to motivate Joe Blow Outta Work to get out into a field and pick berries? Chuck How many people fall into the category of refusing to work? Mnealtx keeps going on about them too, but he always ducks the question when asked how big of a problem it really is. Have you looked at the welfare rolls lately? There's too many people who would not do 'manual labor'. Too many people who are afraid to get their hands dirty. Seems like, this country has produced a nation of over-achievers only willing to start at the top. The old days of working your way up the ladder seems to have faded into history. Recently, some of the larger 'chain' stores had to 'import' people from branch stores in other states because they couldn't get help. Yet, there were no teenagers taking summer jobs. Chuck Chuck So what fraction of the welfare rolls are people who REFUSE to work? I continue to hear griping about them; I'd like to know the MAGNITUDE of the problem. Were the teenagers who didn't take summer jobs on welfare or is that a red herring? Most of the teens who didn't have summer jobs, had daddys with fat walets. OK, so the teenager comment thing was a red herring. Quote When i hear folks say they are waiting on the government to do this or that for them and they 'appear' physically able to work, I do wonder about that. Not just folks I hear being interviewed by some reporter but people I've met. The biggest excuse I've heard was 'back problems'. That's the oldest excuse in the world.Chuck You don't have a number, either, then?... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites masterrig 1 #49 February 29, 2008 Quote Quote Quote Quote Quote Quote So how much do you suppose wages would have to increase to motivate Joe Blow Outta Work to get out into a field and pick berries? Chuck How many people fall into the category of refusing to work? Mnealtx keeps going on about them too, but he always ducks the question when asked how big of a problem it really is. Have you looked at the welfare rolls lately? There's too many people who would not do 'manual labor'. Too many people who are afraid to get their hands dirty. Seems like, this country has produced a nation of over-achievers only willing to start at the top. The old days of working your way up the ladder seems to have faded into history. Recently, some of the larger 'chain' stores had to 'import' people from branch stores in other states because they couldn't get help. Yet, there were no teenagers taking summer jobs. Chuck Chuck So what fraction of the welfare rolls are people who REFUSE to work? I continue to hear griping about them; I'd like to know the MAGNITUDE of the problem. Were the teenagers who didn't take summer jobs on welfare or is that a red herring? Most of the teens who didn't have summer jobs, had daddys with fat walets. OK, so the teenager comment thing was a red herring. Quote When i hear folks say they are waiting on the government to do this or that for them and they 'appear' physically able to work, I do wonder about that. Not just folks I hear being interviewed by some reporter but people I've met. The biggest excuse I've heard was 'back problems'. That's the oldest excuse in the world.Chuck You don't have a number, either, then? No, I don't. Then too, all kinds of trickery and scullduggery cand be done with numbers. Tell you what. I'll do some digging and see what kinds of numbers I can find for you... how's that? Chuck Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites masterrig 1 #50 February 29, 2008 As for numbers? I couldn't find anything in regard to those who are able to work but, waiting on government money and help. The way stats are kept in regards to pro sports teams and players, you'd think, someone would have a stat on our question. edit to add: I got to thinking, why would the govt. publish such numbers? It would only piss-off too many folks and the govt. doesn't want to hear it. They just want to go-on with their big spending, wastefull ways. Chuck Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 Next Page 2 of 2 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. 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rickjump1 0 #33 February 28, 2008 How did all these people get their produce to market before we started filling up with cheap illegal labor? The price of food never came down. I would be willing to pay more for food produced with legal workers being paid minimum wage. Having slave labor will bite us in the butt; not forgetting the criminals and ones who will not work. We pay in the end.Do your part for global warming: ban beans and hold all popcorn farts. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rickjump1 0 #34 February 28, 2008 QuoteQuote>Yesterday, my wife and I were in the grocery store and 1-qt. of >strawberries was $6.39! We passed on the strawberies. And that's the underlying reason "just send em all home" will end up failing. Local crops will go unsold, farmers will go out of business, the economy will slump further - until someone agrees to "look the other way" (just until the farmer gets back on his feet, of course.) Meanwhile, consumers will continue to buy the $4 bag o strawberries instead of the $8 100%-american-picked strawberries - and the farmers who _are_ trying to play by the rules will lose their farms. The American farmer doesn't set the prices at the grocery stores. The farmer gets what the buyer is offering. What we need to do is get some form of worker program where after the crops are picked they go home for the winter and hit it another lick in spring. Noone would have to turn a blind eye or any of that. I stiil think, the Brazero system was not all that bad. The farmers liked it and it worked. What we have today is a bunch of 'over thinking, politically correct' politicians passing out new laws. We have some good laws on the books... they just need to be enforced. Chuck Good solution, and it has worked before. All we need is the moral leadership. Repeating again: we did not starve when Eisenhower sent them home before.Do your part for global warming: ban beans and hold all popcorn farts. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,116 #35 February 28, 2008 > Subsidies (in part) are for American workers; not for some excuse >to employ those here illegally. Well, no. At the most basic level, subsidies are there to make people vote for politicians. Oil companies lobby for oil tax breaks out of greed (they want to pay less tax and therefore make more money) and farmers, miners and timber execs do the same thing. The rationale usually floated for this is to help out american industry. You can think that "subsidies should not be used to hire illegal immigrants" and I agree. But there's no inherent relationship between subsidies and illegal immigrants. >That is correct, and the market adjusts. Right. That's what I am saying. The market adjusts. The small farmers go out of business, and the massive factory farms that supply Wal-Mart take up the slack. That's been happening for a while now. Whether that's a good thing or not depends on your point of view, I suppose. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rickjump1 0 #36 February 28, 2008 Quote> Subsidies (in part) are for American workers; not for some excuse >to employ those here illegally. Well, no. At the most basic level, subsidies are there to make people vote for politicians. Oil companies lobby for oil tax breaks out of greed (they want to pay less tax and therefore make more money) and farmers, miners and timber execs do the same thing. The rationale usually floated for this is to help out american industry. You can think that "subsidies should not be used to hire illegal immigrants" and I agree. But there's no inherent relationship between subsidies and illegal immigrants.Quote Ok; no relationship with subsidies. Thankfully, congress has been trying to adjust subsidies in favor of the family farmers. >That is correct, and the market adjusts. Right. That's what I am saying. The market adjusts. The small farmers go out of business, and the massive factory farms that supply Wal-Mart take up the slack. That's been happening for a while now. Whether that's a good thing or not depends on your point of view, I suppose. If the massive factory farms and the small farmers both employ "legally" documented workers wouldn't things remain constant between them? Ever been a pea picker? Regardless of the outcome, I see more people seeking out the smaller markets and buying directly from the family farms when possible. I think it's a trend to continue for people who value what they eat.Do your part for global warming: ban beans and hold all popcorn farts. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites masterrig 1 #37 February 28, 2008 QuoteQuoteQuote>Yesterday, my wife and I were in the grocery store and 1-qt. of >strawberries was $6.39! We passed on the strawberies. And that's the underlying reason "just send em all home" will end up failing. Local crops will go unsold, farmers will go out of business, the economy will slump further - until someone agrees to "look the other way" (just until the farmer gets back on his feet, of course.) Meanwhile, consumers will continue to buy the $4 bag o strawberries instead of the $8 100%-american-picked strawberries - and the farmers who _are_ trying to play by the rules will lose their farms. The American farmer doesn't set the prices at the grocery stores. The farmer gets what the buyer is offering. What we need to do is get some form of worker program where after the crops are picked they go home for the winter and hit it another lick in spring. Noone would have to turn a blind eye or any of that. I stiil think, the Brazero system was not all that bad. The farmers liked it and it worked. What we have today is a bunch of 'over thinking, politically correct' politicians passing out new laws. We have some good laws on the books... they just need to be enforced. Chuck Good solution, and it has worked before. All we need is the moral leadership. Repeating again: we did not starve when Eisenhower sent them home before. I've spoken with a lot of farmers over the years and they've all said they wish, they would bring back the Brasero system. The farmers went to a location, told them how many workers they needed and they went back to the farm. Farmers did, have to supply shelter for the workers but, the system worked. Chuck Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kallend 2,148 #38 February 28, 2008 Quote So how much do you suppose wages would have to increase to motivate Joe Blow Outta Work to get out into a field and pick berries? Chuck How many people fall into the category of refusing to work? Mnealtx keeps going on about them too, but he always ducks the question when asked how big of a problem it really is.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites SBS 0 #39 February 28, 2008 Quote How did all these people get their produce to market before we started filling up with cheap illegal labor? I don't know. QuoteI would be willing to pay more for food produced with legal workers being paid minimum wage. A) Legal workers would not do this for minimum wage unless we are talking about making those who are now illegal legal. B) They are already paid minimum wage or more. QuoteHaving slave labor will bite us in the butt; not forgetting the criminals and ones who will not work. We pay in the end. We are talking about immigrants, not slave labor. I would consider this a significantly different discussion if we were talking about people who were making $3 or $4 an hour or nothing at all._____________ I'm not conceited...I'm just realistic about my awesomeness... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites billvon 3,116 #40 February 28, 2008 > If the massive factory farms and the small farmers both employ >"legally" documented workers wouldn't things remain constant between >them? Well: 1) Right now small farmers have exemptions that basically allow them to pay next to nothing for labor. If you had all farms employ the same laborers and pay them similar wages, then small farmers are at more of a disadvantage than they are now. 2) All things being equal, larger farms have economies of scale working for them. >Ever been a pea picker? Not as a job! Although I did pick about two pounds of peas last week. >Regardless of the outcome, I see more people seeking out the smaller >markets and buying directly from the family farms when possible. I think >it's a trend to continue for people who value what they eat. I hope that does continue as a trend. The economics are against it, but perhaps there's getting to be more perceived value in local farms. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites masterrig 1 #41 February 28, 2008 QuoteQuote So how much do you suppose wages would have to increase to motivate Joe Blow Outta Work to get out into a field and pick berries? Chuck How many people fall into the category of refusing to work? Mnealtx keeps going on about them too, but he always ducks the question when asked how big of a problem it really is. Have you looked at the welfare rolls lately? There's too many people who would not do 'manual labor'. Too many people who are afraid to get their hands dirty. Seems like, this country has produced a nation of over-achievers only willing to start at the top. The old days of working your way up the ladder seems to have faded into history. Recently, some of the larger 'chain' stores had to 'import' people from branch stores in other states because they couldn't get help. Yet, there were no teenagers taking summer jobs. Chuck Chuck Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites rickjump1 0 #42 February 28, 2008 QuoteQuote How did all these people get their produce to market before we started filling up with cheap illegal labor? I don't know. QuoteI would be willing to pay more for food produced with legal workers being paid minimum wage. A) Legal workers would not do this for minimum wage unless we are talking about making those who are now illegal legal. B) They are already paid minimum wage or more.QuoteIf they are already paid the minimum wage, I am wrong. They are still here illegally and can return legally under one of the guest worker programs and go home after harvest. QuoteHaving slave labor will bite us in the butt; not forgetting the criminals and ones who will not work. We pay in the end. We are talking about immigrants, not slave labor. I would consider this a significantly different discussion if we were talking about people who were making $3 or $4 an hour or nothing at all.We are talking about "illegal" immigrants; not legal immigrants. If I'm mistaken about how much they do make, I've learned something. Fact is they are here illegally and should be deported. Like I said, they can come back under a guest worker program. Criminals and those who don't want to work can stay home.Do your part for global warming: ban beans and hold all popcorn farts. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites SBS 0 #43 February 28, 2008 QuoteWe live in San Diego and we grow our own lemons, limes, oranges, beans and avocados. (Tomatoes in summer.) We get most of our vegetables from a local farm. It's not next door. More power to you. I don't have room on my apartment balcony for a lemon tree. I have tried to grow stuff and I can't do it for crap. In any event, as a society we did the grow your own food thing for centuries and the local farm, etc. The local video store was owned by a local family, Blockbuster was not a factor. Starbucks replaced the local coffee house, and McDonalds is the new local family owned hamburger stand. Through our actions we have changed the way things are done...why do we want to go back? Why can't we just let the machine work and go about our lives? QuoteOr "sorry, can't work this weekend, I have to drive 90 minutes each way to go skydiving." I would bet you that most people live closer to a farm than they live to a drop zone. I don't see the relevance. Because we elect to drive 90 minutes to pursue our hobby on the weekend, we should be ok with driving 30 minutes to a local farm to get our produce? I choose to spend my time on other endeavors and take advantage of the infrastructure that has been built to afford me the opportunity to do so. Quote But in any case you don't have to drive. Many CSA's deliver. I'm sure that's not expensive...and how inefficient would that be to have someone deliver a bunch of asparagus, a head of lettuce, and 2 apples? BTW, as far as supporting your local farmer and screwing the big guys, where do we think the big guys get their produce? Those little guys have contracts with the big guys to provide fruit and vegetables...you kill the big guys, you kill the little guys. Sure, there are some who wouldn't mind going and selling a few hundred boxes at a local market, but their bread and butter is the contracts that they have to provide thousands to the Driscoll's and the Naturipes, etc._____________ I'm not conceited...I'm just realistic about my awesomeness... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites SBS 0 #44 February 28, 2008 QuoteWe are talking about "illegal" immigrants; not legal immigrants. If I'm mistaken about how much they do make, I've learned something. The ones that I have known have been paid minimum wage or higher, and have paid more in taxes than those who make a similar wage who are legal due to the fact that if they were legal they would be able to be refunded the taxes that had been withheld from their paychecks. QuoteFact is they are here illegally and should be deported. Like I said, they can come back under a guest worker program. Criminals and those who don't want to work can stay home. Agreed in principle. My argument is that in practice it is not that simple. As Chuck pointed out, we live in a society where people are afraid to get their hands dirty and "want to start at the top". The notion that the labor is just going to appear is ridiculous. It's equally ridiculous to think that people will not have a problem paying significantly higher prices that will result from higher labor costs. It's nice to say, but the reality is that people already have problems paying the prices as they stand today. And not yet mentioned is the question "what are we going to bitch about when they are gone?" What's going to be the next scapegoat of "what's wrong with our society" if we no longer have this argument? I don't know that I have EVER seen statistics of the negative impact that illegal immigrants have on our economy. I would be interested if someone does have some._____________ I'm not conceited...I'm just realistic about my awesomeness... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mnealtx 0 #45 February 28, 2008 QuoteQuote So how much do you suppose wages would have to increase to motivate Joe Blow Outta Work to get out into a field and pick berries? Chuck How many people fall into the category of refusing to work? Mnealtx keeps going on about them too, but he always ducks the question when asked how big of a problem it really is. In my instance, however, I can speak from personal knowledge of people I knew doing just that - when are you going to provide anything past your "300k stolen guns/year" in regards to chain of custody, etc?Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kallend 2,148 #46 February 28, 2008 QuoteQuoteQuote So how much do you suppose wages would have to increase to motivate Joe Blow Outta Work to get out into a field and pick berries? Chuck How many people fall into the category of refusing to work? Mnealtx keeps going on about them too, but he always ducks the question when asked how big of a problem it really is. Have you looked at the welfare rolls lately? There's too many people who would not do 'manual labor'. Too many people who are afraid to get their hands dirty. Seems like, this country has produced a nation of over-achievers only willing to start at the top. The old days of working your way up the ladder seems to have faded into history. Recently, some of the larger 'chain' stores had to 'import' people from branch stores in other states because they couldn't get help. Yet, there were no teenagers taking summer jobs. Chuck Chuck So what fraction of the welfare rolls are people who REFUSE to work? I continue to hear griping about them; I'd like to know the MAGNITUDE of the problem. Were the teenagers who didn't take summer jobs on welfare or is that a red herring?... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites masterrig 1 #47 February 28, 2008 Quote Quote Quote Quote So how much do you suppose wages would have to increase to motivate Joe Blow Outta Work to get out into a field and pick berries? Chuck How many people fall into the category of refusing to work? Mnealtx keeps going on about them too, but he always ducks the question when asked how big of a problem it really is. Have you looked at the welfare rolls lately? There's too many people who would not do 'manual labor'. Too many people who are afraid to get their hands dirty. Seems like, this country has produced a nation of over-achievers only willing to start at the top. The old days of working your way up the ladder seems to have faded into history. Recently, some of the larger 'chain' stores had to 'import' people from branch stores in other states because they couldn't get help. Yet, there were no teenagers taking summer jobs. Chuck Chuck So what fraction of the welfare rolls are people who REFUSE to work? I continue to hear griping about them; I'd like to know the MAGNITUDE of the problem. Were the teenagers who didn't take summer jobs on welfare or is that a red herring? Most of the teens who didn't have summer jobs, had daddys with fat walets. When i hear folks say they are waiting on the government to do this or that for them and they 'appear' physically able to work, I do wonder about that. Not just folks I hear being interviewed by some reporter but people I've met. The biggest excuse I've heard was 'back problems'. That's the oldest excuse in the world.Chuck Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kallend 2,148 #48 February 28, 2008 Quote Quote Quote Quote Quote So how much do you suppose wages would have to increase to motivate Joe Blow Outta Work to get out into a field and pick berries? Chuck How many people fall into the category of refusing to work? Mnealtx keeps going on about them too, but he always ducks the question when asked how big of a problem it really is. Have you looked at the welfare rolls lately? There's too many people who would not do 'manual labor'. Too many people who are afraid to get their hands dirty. Seems like, this country has produced a nation of over-achievers only willing to start at the top. The old days of working your way up the ladder seems to have faded into history. Recently, some of the larger 'chain' stores had to 'import' people from branch stores in other states because they couldn't get help. Yet, there were no teenagers taking summer jobs. Chuck Chuck So what fraction of the welfare rolls are people who REFUSE to work? I continue to hear griping about them; I'd like to know the MAGNITUDE of the problem. Were the teenagers who didn't take summer jobs on welfare or is that a red herring? Most of the teens who didn't have summer jobs, had daddys with fat walets. OK, so the teenager comment thing was a red herring. Quote When i hear folks say they are waiting on the government to do this or that for them and they 'appear' physically able to work, I do wonder about that. Not just folks I hear being interviewed by some reporter but people I've met. The biggest excuse I've heard was 'back problems'. That's the oldest excuse in the world.Chuck You don't have a number, either, then?... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites masterrig 1 #49 February 29, 2008 Quote Quote Quote Quote Quote Quote So how much do you suppose wages would have to increase to motivate Joe Blow Outta Work to get out into a field and pick berries? Chuck How many people fall into the category of refusing to work? Mnealtx keeps going on about them too, but he always ducks the question when asked how big of a problem it really is. Have you looked at the welfare rolls lately? There's too many people who would not do 'manual labor'. Too many people who are afraid to get their hands dirty. Seems like, this country has produced a nation of over-achievers only willing to start at the top. The old days of working your way up the ladder seems to have faded into history. Recently, some of the larger 'chain' stores had to 'import' people from branch stores in other states because they couldn't get help. Yet, there were no teenagers taking summer jobs. Chuck Chuck So what fraction of the welfare rolls are people who REFUSE to work? I continue to hear griping about them; I'd like to know the MAGNITUDE of the problem. Were the teenagers who didn't take summer jobs on welfare or is that a red herring? Most of the teens who didn't have summer jobs, had daddys with fat walets. OK, so the teenager comment thing was a red herring. Quote When i hear folks say they are waiting on the government to do this or that for them and they 'appear' physically able to work, I do wonder about that. Not just folks I hear being interviewed by some reporter but people I've met. The biggest excuse I've heard was 'back problems'. That's the oldest excuse in the world.Chuck You don't have a number, either, then? No, I don't. Then too, all kinds of trickery and scullduggery cand be done with numbers. Tell you what. I'll do some digging and see what kinds of numbers I can find for you... how's that? Chuck Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites masterrig 1 #50 February 29, 2008 As for numbers? I couldn't find anything in regard to those who are able to work but, waiting on government money and help. The way stats are kept in regards to pro sports teams and players, you'd think, someone would have a stat on our question. edit to add: I got to thinking, why would the govt. publish such numbers? It would only piss-off too many folks and the govt. doesn't want to hear it. They just want to go-on with their big spending, wastefull ways. Chuck Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 Next Page 2 of 2 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. 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masterrig 1 #37 February 28, 2008 QuoteQuoteQuote>Yesterday, my wife and I were in the grocery store and 1-qt. of >strawberries was $6.39! We passed on the strawberies. And that's the underlying reason "just send em all home" will end up failing. Local crops will go unsold, farmers will go out of business, the economy will slump further - until someone agrees to "look the other way" (just until the farmer gets back on his feet, of course.) Meanwhile, consumers will continue to buy the $4 bag o strawberries instead of the $8 100%-american-picked strawberries - and the farmers who _are_ trying to play by the rules will lose their farms. The American farmer doesn't set the prices at the grocery stores. The farmer gets what the buyer is offering. What we need to do is get some form of worker program where after the crops are picked they go home for the winter and hit it another lick in spring. Noone would have to turn a blind eye or any of that. I stiil think, the Brazero system was not all that bad. The farmers liked it and it worked. What we have today is a bunch of 'over thinking, politically correct' politicians passing out new laws. We have some good laws on the books... they just need to be enforced. Chuck Good solution, and it has worked before. All we need is the moral leadership. Repeating again: we did not starve when Eisenhower sent them home before. I've spoken with a lot of farmers over the years and they've all said they wish, they would bring back the Brasero system. The farmers went to a location, told them how many workers they needed and they went back to the farm. Farmers did, have to supply shelter for the workers but, the system worked. Chuck Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,148 #38 February 28, 2008 Quote So how much do you suppose wages would have to increase to motivate Joe Blow Outta Work to get out into a field and pick berries? Chuck How many people fall into the category of refusing to work? Mnealtx keeps going on about them too, but he always ducks the question when asked how big of a problem it really is.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SBS 0 #39 February 28, 2008 Quote How did all these people get their produce to market before we started filling up with cheap illegal labor? I don't know. QuoteI would be willing to pay more for food produced with legal workers being paid minimum wage. A) Legal workers would not do this for minimum wage unless we are talking about making those who are now illegal legal. B) They are already paid minimum wage or more. QuoteHaving slave labor will bite us in the butt; not forgetting the criminals and ones who will not work. We pay in the end. We are talking about immigrants, not slave labor. I would consider this a significantly different discussion if we were talking about people who were making $3 or $4 an hour or nothing at all._____________ I'm not conceited...I'm just realistic about my awesomeness... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,116 #40 February 28, 2008 > If the massive factory farms and the small farmers both employ >"legally" documented workers wouldn't things remain constant between >them? Well: 1) Right now small farmers have exemptions that basically allow them to pay next to nothing for labor. If you had all farms employ the same laborers and pay them similar wages, then small farmers are at more of a disadvantage than they are now. 2) All things being equal, larger farms have economies of scale working for them. >Ever been a pea picker? Not as a job! Although I did pick about two pounds of peas last week. >Regardless of the outcome, I see more people seeking out the smaller >markets and buying directly from the family farms when possible. I think >it's a trend to continue for people who value what they eat. I hope that does continue as a trend. The economics are against it, but perhaps there's getting to be more perceived value in local farms. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
masterrig 1 #41 February 28, 2008 QuoteQuote So how much do you suppose wages would have to increase to motivate Joe Blow Outta Work to get out into a field and pick berries? Chuck How many people fall into the category of refusing to work? Mnealtx keeps going on about them too, but he always ducks the question when asked how big of a problem it really is. Have you looked at the welfare rolls lately? There's too many people who would not do 'manual labor'. Too many people who are afraid to get their hands dirty. Seems like, this country has produced a nation of over-achievers only willing to start at the top. The old days of working your way up the ladder seems to have faded into history. Recently, some of the larger 'chain' stores had to 'import' people from branch stores in other states because they couldn't get help. Yet, there were no teenagers taking summer jobs. Chuck Chuck Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rickjump1 0 #42 February 28, 2008 QuoteQuote How did all these people get their produce to market before we started filling up with cheap illegal labor? I don't know. QuoteI would be willing to pay more for food produced with legal workers being paid minimum wage. A) Legal workers would not do this for minimum wage unless we are talking about making those who are now illegal legal. B) They are already paid minimum wage or more.QuoteIf they are already paid the minimum wage, I am wrong. They are still here illegally and can return legally under one of the guest worker programs and go home after harvest. QuoteHaving slave labor will bite us in the butt; not forgetting the criminals and ones who will not work. We pay in the end. We are talking about immigrants, not slave labor. I would consider this a significantly different discussion if we were talking about people who were making $3 or $4 an hour or nothing at all.We are talking about "illegal" immigrants; not legal immigrants. If I'm mistaken about how much they do make, I've learned something. Fact is they are here illegally and should be deported. Like I said, they can come back under a guest worker program. Criminals and those who don't want to work can stay home.Do your part for global warming: ban beans and hold all popcorn farts. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites SBS 0 #43 February 28, 2008 QuoteWe live in San Diego and we grow our own lemons, limes, oranges, beans and avocados. (Tomatoes in summer.) We get most of our vegetables from a local farm. It's not next door. More power to you. I don't have room on my apartment balcony for a lemon tree. I have tried to grow stuff and I can't do it for crap. In any event, as a society we did the grow your own food thing for centuries and the local farm, etc. The local video store was owned by a local family, Blockbuster was not a factor. Starbucks replaced the local coffee house, and McDonalds is the new local family owned hamburger stand. Through our actions we have changed the way things are done...why do we want to go back? Why can't we just let the machine work and go about our lives? QuoteOr "sorry, can't work this weekend, I have to drive 90 minutes each way to go skydiving." I would bet you that most people live closer to a farm than they live to a drop zone. I don't see the relevance. Because we elect to drive 90 minutes to pursue our hobby on the weekend, we should be ok with driving 30 minutes to a local farm to get our produce? I choose to spend my time on other endeavors and take advantage of the infrastructure that has been built to afford me the opportunity to do so. Quote But in any case you don't have to drive. Many CSA's deliver. I'm sure that's not expensive...and how inefficient would that be to have someone deliver a bunch of asparagus, a head of lettuce, and 2 apples? BTW, as far as supporting your local farmer and screwing the big guys, where do we think the big guys get their produce? Those little guys have contracts with the big guys to provide fruit and vegetables...you kill the big guys, you kill the little guys. Sure, there are some who wouldn't mind going and selling a few hundred boxes at a local market, but their bread and butter is the contracts that they have to provide thousands to the Driscoll's and the Naturipes, etc._____________ I'm not conceited...I'm just realistic about my awesomeness... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites SBS 0 #44 February 28, 2008 QuoteWe are talking about "illegal" immigrants; not legal immigrants. If I'm mistaken about how much they do make, I've learned something. The ones that I have known have been paid minimum wage or higher, and have paid more in taxes than those who make a similar wage who are legal due to the fact that if they were legal they would be able to be refunded the taxes that had been withheld from their paychecks. QuoteFact is they are here illegally and should be deported. Like I said, they can come back under a guest worker program. Criminals and those who don't want to work can stay home. Agreed in principle. My argument is that in practice it is not that simple. As Chuck pointed out, we live in a society where people are afraid to get their hands dirty and "want to start at the top". The notion that the labor is just going to appear is ridiculous. It's equally ridiculous to think that people will not have a problem paying significantly higher prices that will result from higher labor costs. It's nice to say, but the reality is that people already have problems paying the prices as they stand today. And not yet mentioned is the question "what are we going to bitch about when they are gone?" What's going to be the next scapegoat of "what's wrong with our society" if we no longer have this argument? I don't know that I have EVER seen statistics of the negative impact that illegal immigrants have on our economy. I would be interested if someone does have some._____________ I'm not conceited...I'm just realistic about my awesomeness... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mnealtx 0 #45 February 28, 2008 QuoteQuote So how much do you suppose wages would have to increase to motivate Joe Blow Outta Work to get out into a field and pick berries? Chuck How many people fall into the category of refusing to work? Mnealtx keeps going on about them too, but he always ducks the question when asked how big of a problem it really is. In my instance, however, I can speak from personal knowledge of people I knew doing just that - when are you going to provide anything past your "300k stolen guns/year" in regards to chain of custody, etc?Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kallend 2,148 #46 February 28, 2008 QuoteQuoteQuote So how much do you suppose wages would have to increase to motivate Joe Blow Outta Work to get out into a field and pick berries? Chuck How many people fall into the category of refusing to work? Mnealtx keeps going on about them too, but he always ducks the question when asked how big of a problem it really is. Have you looked at the welfare rolls lately? There's too many people who would not do 'manual labor'. Too many people who are afraid to get their hands dirty. Seems like, this country has produced a nation of over-achievers only willing to start at the top. The old days of working your way up the ladder seems to have faded into history. Recently, some of the larger 'chain' stores had to 'import' people from branch stores in other states because they couldn't get help. Yet, there were no teenagers taking summer jobs. Chuck Chuck So what fraction of the welfare rolls are people who REFUSE to work? I continue to hear griping about them; I'd like to know the MAGNITUDE of the problem. Were the teenagers who didn't take summer jobs on welfare or is that a red herring?... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites masterrig 1 #47 February 28, 2008 Quote Quote Quote Quote So how much do you suppose wages would have to increase to motivate Joe Blow Outta Work to get out into a field and pick berries? Chuck How many people fall into the category of refusing to work? Mnealtx keeps going on about them too, but he always ducks the question when asked how big of a problem it really is. Have you looked at the welfare rolls lately? There's too many people who would not do 'manual labor'. Too many people who are afraid to get their hands dirty. Seems like, this country has produced a nation of over-achievers only willing to start at the top. The old days of working your way up the ladder seems to have faded into history. Recently, some of the larger 'chain' stores had to 'import' people from branch stores in other states because they couldn't get help. Yet, there were no teenagers taking summer jobs. Chuck Chuck So what fraction of the welfare rolls are people who REFUSE to work? I continue to hear griping about them; I'd like to know the MAGNITUDE of the problem. Were the teenagers who didn't take summer jobs on welfare or is that a red herring? Most of the teens who didn't have summer jobs, had daddys with fat walets. When i hear folks say they are waiting on the government to do this or that for them and they 'appear' physically able to work, I do wonder about that. Not just folks I hear being interviewed by some reporter but people I've met. The biggest excuse I've heard was 'back problems'. That's the oldest excuse in the world.Chuck Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kallend 2,148 #48 February 28, 2008 Quote Quote Quote Quote Quote So how much do you suppose wages would have to increase to motivate Joe Blow Outta Work to get out into a field and pick berries? Chuck How many people fall into the category of refusing to work? Mnealtx keeps going on about them too, but he always ducks the question when asked how big of a problem it really is. Have you looked at the welfare rolls lately? There's too many people who would not do 'manual labor'. Too many people who are afraid to get their hands dirty. Seems like, this country has produced a nation of over-achievers only willing to start at the top. The old days of working your way up the ladder seems to have faded into history. Recently, some of the larger 'chain' stores had to 'import' people from branch stores in other states because they couldn't get help. Yet, there were no teenagers taking summer jobs. Chuck Chuck So what fraction of the welfare rolls are people who REFUSE to work? I continue to hear griping about them; I'd like to know the MAGNITUDE of the problem. Were the teenagers who didn't take summer jobs on welfare or is that a red herring? Most of the teens who didn't have summer jobs, had daddys with fat walets. OK, so the teenager comment thing was a red herring. Quote When i hear folks say they are waiting on the government to do this or that for them and they 'appear' physically able to work, I do wonder about that. Not just folks I hear being interviewed by some reporter but people I've met. The biggest excuse I've heard was 'back problems'. That's the oldest excuse in the world.Chuck You don't have a number, either, then?... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites masterrig 1 #49 February 29, 2008 Quote Quote Quote Quote Quote Quote So how much do you suppose wages would have to increase to motivate Joe Blow Outta Work to get out into a field and pick berries? Chuck How many people fall into the category of refusing to work? Mnealtx keeps going on about them too, but he always ducks the question when asked how big of a problem it really is. Have you looked at the welfare rolls lately? There's too many people who would not do 'manual labor'. Too many people who are afraid to get their hands dirty. Seems like, this country has produced a nation of over-achievers only willing to start at the top. The old days of working your way up the ladder seems to have faded into history. Recently, some of the larger 'chain' stores had to 'import' people from branch stores in other states because they couldn't get help. Yet, there were no teenagers taking summer jobs. Chuck Chuck So what fraction of the welfare rolls are people who REFUSE to work? I continue to hear griping about them; I'd like to know the MAGNITUDE of the problem. Were the teenagers who didn't take summer jobs on welfare or is that a red herring? Most of the teens who didn't have summer jobs, had daddys with fat walets. OK, so the teenager comment thing was a red herring. Quote When i hear folks say they are waiting on the government to do this or that for them and they 'appear' physically able to work, I do wonder about that. Not just folks I hear being interviewed by some reporter but people I've met. The biggest excuse I've heard was 'back problems'. That's the oldest excuse in the world.Chuck You don't have a number, either, then? No, I don't. Then too, all kinds of trickery and scullduggery cand be done with numbers. Tell you what. I'll do some digging and see what kinds of numbers I can find for you... how's that? Chuck Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites masterrig 1 #50 February 29, 2008 As for numbers? I couldn't find anything in regard to those who are able to work but, waiting on government money and help. The way stats are kept in regards to pro sports teams and players, you'd think, someone would have a stat on our question. edit to add: I got to thinking, why would the govt. publish such numbers? It would only piss-off too many folks and the govt. doesn't want to hear it. They just want to go-on with their big spending, wastefull ways. Chuck Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 Next Page 2 of 2 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. 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SBS 0 #43 February 28, 2008 QuoteWe live in San Diego and we grow our own lemons, limes, oranges, beans and avocados. (Tomatoes in summer.) We get most of our vegetables from a local farm. It's not next door. More power to you. I don't have room on my apartment balcony for a lemon tree. I have tried to grow stuff and I can't do it for crap. In any event, as a society we did the grow your own food thing for centuries and the local farm, etc. The local video store was owned by a local family, Blockbuster was not a factor. Starbucks replaced the local coffee house, and McDonalds is the new local family owned hamburger stand. Through our actions we have changed the way things are done...why do we want to go back? Why can't we just let the machine work and go about our lives? QuoteOr "sorry, can't work this weekend, I have to drive 90 minutes each way to go skydiving." I would bet you that most people live closer to a farm than they live to a drop zone. I don't see the relevance. Because we elect to drive 90 minutes to pursue our hobby on the weekend, we should be ok with driving 30 minutes to a local farm to get our produce? I choose to spend my time on other endeavors and take advantage of the infrastructure that has been built to afford me the opportunity to do so. Quote But in any case you don't have to drive. Many CSA's deliver. I'm sure that's not expensive...and how inefficient would that be to have someone deliver a bunch of asparagus, a head of lettuce, and 2 apples? BTW, as far as supporting your local farmer and screwing the big guys, where do we think the big guys get their produce? Those little guys have contracts with the big guys to provide fruit and vegetables...you kill the big guys, you kill the little guys. Sure, there are some who wouldn't mind going and selling a few hundred boxes at a local market, but their bread and butter is the contracts that they have to provide thousands to the Driscoll's and the Naturipes, etc._____________ I'm not conceited...I'm just realistic about my awesomeness... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SBS 0 #44 February 28, 2008 QuoteWe are talking about "illegal" immigrants; not legal immigrants. If I'm mistaken about how much they do make, I've learned something. The ones that I have known have been paid minimum wage or higher, and have paid more in taxes than those who make a similar wage who are legal due to the fact that if they were legal they would be able to be refunded the taxes that had been withheld from their paychecks. QuoteFact is they are here illegally and should be deported. Like I said, they can come back under a guest worker program. Criminals and those who don't want to work can stay home. Agreed in principle. My argument is that in practice it is not that simple. As Chuck pointed out, we live in a society where people are afraid to get their hands dirty and "want to start at the top". The notion that the labor is just going to appear is ridiculous. It's equally ridiculous to think that people will not have a problem paying significantly higher prices that will result from higher labor costs. It's nice to say, but the reality is that people already have problems paying the prices as they stand today. And not yet mentioned is the question "what are we going to bitch about when they are gone?" What's going to be the next scapegoat of "what's wrong with our society" if we no longer have this argument? I don't know that I have EVER seen statistics of the negative impact that illegal immigrants have on our economy. I would be interested if someone does have some._____________ I'm not conceited...I'm just realistic about my awesomeness... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnealtx 0 #45 February 28, 2008 QuoteQuote So how much do you suppose wages would have to increase to motivate Joe Blow Outta Work to get out into a field and pick berries? Chuck How many people fall into the category of refusing to work? Mnealtx keeps going on about them too, but he always ducks the question when asked how big of a problem it really is. In my instance, however, I can speak from personal knowledge of people I knew doing just that - when are you going to provide anything past your "300k stolen guns/year" in regards to chain of custody, etc?Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,148 #46 February 28, 2008 QuoteQuoteQuote So how much do you suppose wages would have to increase to motivate Joe Blow Outta Work to get out into a field and pick berries? Chuck How many people fall into the category of refusing to work? Mnealtx keeps going on about them too, but he always ducks the question when asked how big of a problem it really is. Have you looked at the welfare rolls lately? There's too many people who would not do 'manual labor'. Too many people who are afraid to get their hands dirty. Seems like, this country has produced a nation of over-achievers only willing to start at the top. The old days of working your way up the ladder seems to have faded into history. Recently, some of the larger 'chain' stores had to 'import' people from branch stores in other states because they couldn't get help. Yet, there were no teenagers taking summer jobs. Chuck Chuck So what fraction of the welfare rolls are people who REFUSE to work? I continue to hear griping about them; I'd like to know the MAGNITUDE of the problem. Were the teenagers who didn't take summer jobs on welfare or is that a red herring?... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
masterrig 1 #47 February 28, 2008 Quote Quote Quote Quote So how much do you suppose wages would have to increase to motivate Joe Blow Outta Work to get out into a field and pick berries? Chuck How many people fall into the category of refusing to work? Mnealtx keeps going on about them too, but he always ducks the question when asked how big of a problem it really is. Have you looked at the welfare rolls lately? There's too many people who would not do 'manual labor'. Too many people who are afraid to get their hands dirty. Seems like, this country has produced a nation of over-achievers only willing to start at the top. The old days of working your way up the ladder seems to have faded into history. Recently, some of the larger 'chain' stores had to 'import' people from branch stores in other states because they couldn't get help. Yet, there were no teenagers taking summer jobs. Chuck Chuck So what fraction of the welfare rolls are people who REFUSE to work? I continue to hear griping about them; I'd like to know the MAGNITUDE of the problem. Were the teenagers who didn't take summer jobs on welfare or is that a red herring? Most of the teens who didn't have summer jobs, had daddys with fat walets. When i hear folks say they are waiting on the government to do this or that for them and they 'appear' physically able to work, I do wonder about that. Not just folks I hear being interviewed by some reporter but people I've met. The biggest excuse I've heard was 'back problems'. That's the oldest excuse in the world.Chuck Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,148 #48 February 28, 2008 Quote Quote Quote Quote Quote So how much do you suppose wages would have to increase to motivate Joe Blow Outta Work to get out into a field and pick berries? Chuck How many people fall into the category of refusing to work? Mnealtx keeps going on about them too, but he always ducks the question when asked how big of a problem it really is. Have you looked at the welfare rolls lately? There's too many people who would not do 'manual labor'. Too many people who are afraid to get their hands dirty. Seems like, this country has produced a nation of over-achievers only willing to start at the top. The old days of working your way up the ladder seems to have faded into history. Recently, some of the larger 'chain' stores had to 'import' people from branch stores in other states because they couldn't get help. Yet, there were no teenagers taking summer jobs. Chuck Chuck So what fraction of the welfare rolls are people who REFUSE to work? I continue to hear griping about them; I'd like to know the MAGNITUDE of the problem. Were the teenagers who didn't take summer jobs on welfare or is that a red herring? Most of the teens who didn't have summer jobs, had daddys with fat walets. OK, so the teenager comment thing was a red herring. Quote When i hear folks say they are waiting on the government to do this or that for them and they 'appear' physically able to work, I do wonder about that. Not just folks I hear being interviewed by some reporter but people I've met. The biggest excuse I've heard was 'back problems'. That's the oldest excuse in the world.Chuck You don't have a number, either, then?... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
masterrig 1 #49 February 29, 2008 Quote Quote Quote Quote Quote Quote So how much do you suppose wages would have to increase to motivate Joe Blow Outta Work to get out into a field and pick berries? Chuck How many people fall into the category of refusing to work? Mnealtx keeps going on about them too, but he always ducks the question when asked how big of a problem it really is. Have you looked at the welfare rolls lately? There's too many people who would not do 'manual labor'. Too many people who are afraid to get their hands dirty. Seems like, this country has produced a nation of over-achievers only willing to start at the top. The old days of working your way up the ladder seems to have faded into history. Recently, some of the larger 'chain' stores had to 'import' people from branch stores in other states because they couldn't get help. Yet, there were no teenagers taking summer jobs. Chuck Chuck So what fraction of the welfare rolls are people who REFUSE to work? I continue to hear griping about them; I'd like to know the MAGNITUDE of the problem. Were the teenagers who didn't take summer jobs on welfare or is that a red herring? Most of the teens who didn't have summer jobs, had daddys with fat walets. OK, so the teenager comment thing was a red herring. Quote When i hear folks say they are waiting on the government to do this or that for them and they 'appear' physically able to work, I do wonder about that. Not just folks I hear being interviewed by some reporter but people I've met. The biggest excuse I've heard was 'back problems'. That's the oldest excuse in the world.Chuck You don't have a number, either, then? No, I don't. Then too, all kinds of trickery and scullduggery cand be done with numbers. Tell you what. I'll do some digging and see what kinds of numbers I can find for you... how's that? Chuck Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
masterrig 1 #50 February 29, 2008 As for numbers? I couldn't find anything in regard to those who are able to work but, waiting on government money and help. The way stats are kept in regards to pro sports teams and players, you'd think, someone would have a stat on our question. edit to add: I got to thinking, why would the govt. publish such numbers? It would only piss-off too many folks and the govt. doesn't want to hear it. They just want to go-on with their big spending, wastefull ways. Chuck Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
