kallend 2,184
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rushmc 23
QuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteQuote>Again, that is not a gunshow issue now is it.
Yes, it is. See caps above.
Claiming it's not is like claiming that restaurant health code standards are not a restaurant issue because sometimes people cook at home. (using the example from your post.)
>if you are selling a handgun anywhere you should have the check, which,
>as I said, in Iowa you do.
If that is your position, then I agree. Background checks should always be required to help prevent convicted felons from buying guns.
I have no problem with background checks if, once the check is completed, it is destroyed as the law states. And, cap locks not withstanding, this is NOT a gunshow issue. Not even close
What kind of issue is it, then, since allowing felons (and loonies) to buy guns at will is CLEARLY an issue.
So, are you saying they ONLY get them (guns) at gunshows?
I'm ASKING you what kind of issue it is that felons and loonies can so readily buy guns.
It is an issue of criminals being criminals. Add that that your issue or wanting to place blame where it does not belong.
If I am wrong (IYO) you tell me what the issue is?
Otherwise, all you want to do is take guns away from the law abiding because you think that will some how magically remove gun availability from fellons.
Oh, and you still have not answered my question. The one that asks you if you really think gunshows is where fellons get thier weapons?
"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln
billvon 3,132
.thumb.jpg.4bb795e2eaf21b8b300039a5e1ec7f92.jpg)
>Many gather on a street corner. It is "said" that drugs are sold on that
>corner by those that gather there. That street corner is a drug problem
A street corner is a public place, not a private one advertised as a place to find drugs. But yes, if drugs are being sold at that street corner, then there is a drug problem on that street corner.
Let's make your example a better one. Many people go to street fairs where legal drugs (alcohol, tobacco) are sold by licensed sellers to adults. Many vendors also sell them illegally to underage kids; these vendors are easy to find because they clearly advertise "not a licensed dealer." They just sell beer from their own personal supply of Budweiser that they bring in a truck.
Would you claim that the problem of kids drinking underage at street fairs has NOTHING TO DO with street fairs, because kids can get alcohol elsewhere? Would you oppose any attempt to get these dealers to stop selling alcohol to kids?
The original statement you objected to is "in many states, a convicted felon can buy a gun at a gun show with no background check." That is 100% true no matter how much you twist the definitions of words, and no matter how many quotes you get from the NRA.
>corner by those that gather there. That street corner is a drug problem
A street corner is a public place, not a private one advertised as a place to find drugs. But yes, if drugs are being sold at that street corner, then there is a drug problem on that street corner.
Let's make your example a better one. Many people go to street fairs where legal drugs (alcohol, tobacco) are sold by licensed sellers to adults. Many vendors also sell them illegally to underage kids; these vendors are easy to find because they clearly advertise "not a licensed dealer." They just sell beer from their own personal supply of Budweiser that they bring in a truck.
Would you claim that the problem of kids drinking underage at street fairs has NOTHING TO DO with street fairs, because kids can get alcohol elsewhere? Would you oppose any attempt to get these dealers to stop selling alcohol to kids?
The original statement you objected to is "in many states, a convicted felon can buy a gun at a gun show with no background check." That is 100% true no matter how much you twist the definitions of words, and no matter how many quotes you get from the NRA.
kallend 2,184
QuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteQuote>Again, that is not a gunshow issue now is it.
Yes, it is. See caps above.
Claiming it's not is like claiming that restaurant health code standards are not a restaurant issue because sometimes people cook at home. (using the example from your post.)
>if you are selling a handgun anywhere you should have the check, which,
>as I said, in Iowa you do.
If that is your position, then I agree. Background checks should always be required to help prevent convicted felons from buying guns.
I have no problem with background checks if, once the check is completed, it is destroyed as the law states. And, cap locks not withstanding, this is NOT a gunshow issue. Not even close
What kind of issue is it, then, since allowing felons (and loonies) to buy guns at will is CLEARLY an issue.
So, are you saying they ONLY get them (guns) at gunshows?
I'm ASKING you what kind of issue it is that felons and loonies can so readily buy guns.
It is an issue of criminals being criminals. Add that that your issue or wanting to place blame where it does not belong.
If I am wrong (IYO) you tell me what the issue is?
?
You just dodge and weave.
ARe you now saying that a criminal with a gun is no worse than an unarmed criminal? That a loony with a gun is no more dangerous than an unarmed loony?
You could just answer the question.
...
The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.
The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.
rushmc 23
Quote>Many gather on a street corner. It is "said" that drugs are sold on that
>corner by those that gather there. That street corner is a drug problem
A street corner is a public place, not a private one advertised as a place to find drugs. But yes, if drugs are being sold at that street corner, then there is a drug problem on that street corner.
Let's make your example a better one. Many people go to street fairs where legal drugs (alcohol, tobacco) are sold by licensed sellers to adults. Many vendors also sell them illegally to underage kids; these vendors are easy to find because they clearly advertise "not a licensed dealer." They just sell beer from their own personal supply of Budweiser that they bring in a truck.
Would you claim that the problem of kids drinking underage at street fairs has NOTHING TO DO with street fairs, because kids can get alcohol elsewhere? Would you oppose any attempt to get these dealers to stop selling alcohol to kids?
The original statement you objected to is "in many states, a convicted felon can buy a gun at a gun show with no background check." That is 100% true no matter how much you twist the definitions of words, and no matter how many quotes you get from the NRA.
Maybe true but purposfully misleading and dishonest. It is ileagal for a fellon to buy any gun. Period, attacking gunshows and trying to shut them down for a false feeling of good is stupid and a waste of time. And as the post stated above, gunshows are not the end game and therein lies the rub sir.
Also, have you looked at the stats provided by law inforcement related to guns sold at gun shows and used in crimes by fellons (who purchased guns at gun shows)? It is a non-issue.
Some how I doubt it or you brushed if off.
"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln
rushmc 23
QuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteQuote>Again, that is not a gunshow issue now is it.
Yes, it is. See caps above.
Claiming it's not is like claiming that restaurant health code standards are not a restaurant issue because sometimes people cook at home. (using the example from your post.)
>if you are selling a handgun anywhere you should have the check, which,
>as I said, in Iowa you do.
If that is your position, then I agree. Background checks should always be required to help prevent convicted felons from buying guns.
I have no problem with background checks if, once the check is completed, it is destroyed as the law states. And, cap locks not withstanding, this is NOT a gunshow issue. Not even close
What kind of issue is it, then, since allowing felons (and loonies) to buy guns at will is CLEARLY an issue.
So, are you saying they ONLY get them (guns) at gunshows?
I'm ASKING you what kind of issue it is that felons and loonies can so readily buy guns.
It is an issue of criminals being criminals. Add that that your issue or wanting to place blame where it does not belong.
If I am wrong (IYO) you tell me what the issue is?
?
You just dodge and weave.
ARe you now saying that a criminal with a gun is no worse than an unarmed criminal? That a loony with a gun is no more dangerous than an unarmed loony?
You could just answer the question.
I did. You did not like the answer I guess, You have not answered mine and you put words in mhy mouth. Shame on you
"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln
kallend 2,184
Quote
Oh, and you still have not answered my question. The one that asks you if you really think gunshows is where fellons get thier weapons?
I think some felons get their guns from unscrupulous or careless "law abiding" dealers. I think some get their guns from straw purchases by "law abiding" gun owners. I think some steal guns (more than 300,000 every year) from "law abiding" gun owners who are too careless properly to secure their guns. And I think some get them from "legal" sales at gun shows.
In fact, "law abiding" gun dealers and owners are the primary routes by which felons (and loonies) get the guns with which they commit mayhem of various sorts.
...
The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.
The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.
kallend 2,184
Quote
I did. You did not like the answer I guess, You have not answered mine and you put words in mhy mouth. Shame on you
"Criminals are criminals" is a platitude, not an answer.
Do you think a criminal with a gun is no worse than an unarmed criminal?
...
The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.
The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.
billvon 3,132
>It is ileagal for a fellon to buy any gun. Period.
Ah, but here's the rub -
As Kennedy gleefully told me a few years back, it is also illegal to ask anyone if they are a felon. (Or more accurately, they can lie about it and are protected by the government.) So the only way you can ensure that with any certainty is with a background check, and thus any handgun sale must include a background check if you are to avoid selling handguns to felons.
(Or you can just trust felons to never, ever buy guns. Not even NRA supporters are that stupid, I hope.)
>attacking gunshows and trying to shut them down for a false feeling of
>good is stupid and a waste of time.
I have no problem with any gun show, provided that anyone selling a gun there runs a background check.
Ah, but here's the rub -
As Kennedy gleefully told me a few years back, it is also illegal to ask anyone if they are a felon. (Or more accurately, they can lie about it and are protected by the government.) So the only way you can ensure that with any certainty is with a background check, and thus any handgun sale must include a background check if you are to avoid selling handguns to felons.
(Or you can just trust felons to never, ever buy guns. Not even NRA supporters are that stupid, I hope.)
>attacking gunshows and trying to shut them down for a false feeling of
>good is stupid and a waste of time.
I have no problem with any gun show, provided that anyone selling a gun there runs a background check.
rushmc 23
QuoteQuote
Oh, and you still have not answered my question. The one that asks you if you really think gunshows is where fellons get thier weapons?
I think some felons get their guns from unscrupulous or careless "law abiding" dealers. I think some get their guns from straw purchases by "law abiding" gun owners. I think some steal guns (more than 300,000 every year) from "law abiding" gun owners who are too careless properly to secure their guns. And I think some get them from "legal" sales at gun shows.AH, kallend, it cant be a "legal" sale if a felon buys a gun
In fact, "law abiding" gun dealers and owners are the primary routes by whcih felons (and loonies) get the guns with which they commit mayhem of various sorts.
Ya, your position (however crazy) is becoming more clear the more you post on this site. That is good as I want to know who would be a one to suggest law that goes contrary to the constitution.
Good thing is I realize you have nothing here. You keep throwing out that 300,000 number that was "discussed" in another thread.
Thanks
"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln
rushmc 23
YesQuoteQuote
I did. You did not like the answer I guess, You have not answered mine and you put words in mhy mouth. Shame on you
"Criminals are criminals" is a platitude, not an answer.
Do you think a criminal with a gun is no worse than an unarmed criminal?
"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln
Quote
Let's make your example a better one. Many people go to street fairs where legal drugs (alcohol, tobacco) are sold by licensed sellers to adults. Many vendors also sell them illegally to underage kids; these vendors are easy to find because they clearly advertise "not a licensed dealer." They just sell beer from their own personal supply of Budweiser that they bring in a truck.
Would you claim that the problem of kids drinking underage at street fairs has NOTHING TO DO with street fairs, because kids can get alcohol elsewhere? Would you oppose any attempt to get these dealers to stop selling alcohol to kids?
It's not a great analogy, but here we go.
So the question then becomes - is it worth it to cut off 'unlicensed sales' of alcohol at street fairs to adults because a few adults and teenagers break the law? And unless you're driven entirely by moral issues, you answer that by determining the level of the problem. Felons rarely buy guns at gun shows because there are many safer places for them to commit this crime than a warehouse full of gun dealers and law authority.
To solve a non problem, you wish to ban private transfers entirely. Since the question is moot in California, I have to ask those who might know - do the organizers at gun shows elsewhere discourage or prohibit private sales at the shows in response to the smear campaign? What is clear is that the consequence of banning private sales adds a chunk of change to the transaction - for the DROS fee, and for the FFL that will likely charge for the service. Throw in the mandatory (here) trigger lock purchase and you're easily past $50 in nuisance fees that have done nothing to stop criminals from buying guns from other criminals.
rushmc 23
One more time, it has no relationship to a gunshow in general. If there is a problem then deal with the real problem, not one dreamed up becasue it has potential sound bites and media snippets that support an agendaQuote>It is ileagal for a fellon to buy any gun. Period.
Ah, but here's the rub -
As Kennedy gleefully told me a few years back, it is also illegal to ask anyone if they are a felon.Ya, thanks to the libs who say you cant ask that for reaosns of privacy (Or more accurately, they can lie about it and are protected by the government.) So the only way you can ensure that with any certainty is with a background check, and thus any handgun sale must include a background check if you are to avoid selling handguns to felons. AS Iowa has done and it was done with no regard to gunshows
(Or you can just trust felons to never, ever buy guns. Not even NRA supporters are that stupid, I hope.) and who supports this stupid statement? Certinanly not I
>attacking gunshows and trying to shut them down for a false feeling of
>good is stupid and a waste of time.
I have no problem with any gun show, provided that anyone selling a gun there runs a background check.
"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln
billvon 3,132
>is it worth it to cut off 'unlicensed sales' of alcohol at street fairs to
>adults because a few adults and teenagers break the law?
Yep, that is indeed the question.
>And unless you're driven entirely by moral issues, you answer that by
>determining the level of the problem.
Also agreed. Unfortunately, since private gun sales are totally untracked, getting any data (other than by polling captured criminals, which is a notoriously unreliable method of getting data) is somewhat difficult.
To go back to the above example, you could ask the people selling to underage kids how many underage kids they sold to and how many got drunk, and try to base any response on that. They will likely not give you a straight answer, since you could cut off their livelihood (or get them arrested) if they answered truthfully. You could ask the kids, but again, they have a vested interest in not answering truthfully.
Or you could do it statistically. Watch the booth and see how many kids are sold beer. Observe how many kids end up drunk (or in ER's, or arrested, or whatever criterion you choose.) Correlate the two numbers and you'd at least have a sense for what level of problem you had.
>adults because a few adults and teenagers break the law?
Yep, that is indeed the question.
>And unless you're driven entirely by moral issues, you answer that by
>determining the level of the problem.
Also agreed. Unfortunately, since private gun sales are totally untracked, getting any data (other than by polling captured criminals, which is a notoriously unreliable method of getting data) is somewhat difficult.
To go back to the above example, you could ask the people selling to underage kids how many underage kids they sold to and how many got drunk, and try to base any response on that. They will likely not give you a straight answer, since you could cut off their livelihood (or get them arrested) if they answered truthfully. You could ask the kids, but again, they have a vested interest in not answering truthfully.
Or you could do it statistically. Watch the booth and see how many kids are sold beer. Observe how many kids end up drunk (or in ER's, or arrested, or whatever criterion you choose.) Correlate the two numbers and you'd at least have a sense for what level of problem you had.
kallend 2,184
QuoteYesQuoteQuote
I did. You did not like the answer I guess, You have not answered mine and you put words in mhy mouth. Shame on you
"Criminals are criminals" is a platitude, not an answer.
Do you think a criminal with a gun is no worse than an unarmed criminal?
I suspect you're in a small minority. After all, armed robbery gets more serious sentences in every jurisdiction I can think of.
I can't recall the last mall or school shooting committed by an unarmed criminal, either.
But we can all draw our own conclusions.
...
The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.
The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.
billvon 3,132
>Ya, thanks to the libs who say you cant ask that for reaosns of privacy
Kennedy, that damn liberal!
>it has no relationship to a gunshow in general.
Background checks at gun shows have no relationships to gun shows? Not even you can spin that one hard enough to have it make any sense.
Kennedy, that damn liberal!
>it has no relationship to a gunshow in general.
Background checks at gun shows have no relationships to gun shows? Not even you can spin that one hard enough to have it make any sense.
I'm ASKING you what kind of issue it is that felons and loonies can so readily buy guns.
The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.
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