Rioting in the streets of Belgrade, Serbia

[CanuckInUSA 0]

I stand corrected. Told you I was no expert on the Balkans. But since it was the region that set off the start of "The Great War", we should probably not ignore it and we should get our leaders to think twice before they just blindly accept independent declarations of complex enthic regions with histories going back long before the concept of an independent USA was ever conceived.

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[shropshire 0]

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Wasn't Albania a hard-line repressive communist country not all that long ago?

I think they still are.

Aren't you thinking about Alabama?

(.)Y(.)
Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome

[Andrewwhyte 1]

Nato invaded Serbia in 1999. They have been there ever since. They are not peace keepers since by definition peace keepers need to be invited by both sides; Serbia has made it clear they are not welcome since day one. You can make a good argument that the action is justifies because of Serbia's treatment of the Albanian Kosovars, but you need to see how many Serbians see it.
Now that the precedent has been set how long before the Cetniks (ethnic Serbs in Croatia) try to hive off part of that country. What happens to Bosnia?
Billy, you refer to the Serbs as Christians. It is important to remember that they are Orthodox Christians (Russian sphere of influence) while the Croats are Roman Catholic (German sphere of influence).
Gets more fun by the minute doesn't it.
BTW the northern part of Greece is called Macedonia, just like the former Yugoslavian Republic to the north. They have traditionally been in the Bulgarian sphere of influence, so the Greeks aren't to fucking pleased either.

[mircan 0]

* I will do my best not to be biased.
Well, it goes something like this...
...Through the history Kosovo was (more or less) part of the Serbian state. I think there has always been Albanian population there, but not in vast majority like now. For the Serbs, as you have already heard, Kosovo bears significant "ancestral issuses": the biggest battle between (islamic) Turks and (christian) Serbs was there, numerous churches and monasteries etc... There are also large mineral wealth in that region, so the economic factor is in the game too.
Now, as I can recall at the end of the WWII the population ratio was about 50:50.
Then, when Albania became part of the Eastern block, and Yugoslavia didn`t, many Albanians fled from Albania to Kosovo (Serbia and Kosovo in it was then in part of Yugoslavia). The regime back then encouraged "deflections" from Albania to Kosovo. That and the large birth rate of the Albanian population made the Albanians majority. As they became majority they were getting more and more rights and share in the government, which culminated in vast autonomy. The confrontations between Serbs and Albanians started some time when Serbs started to feel endangered, and Albanians started to think they need even more power. That was at the 80`s. Then in the 90`s came Milosevic, he backed up the Serbs and ended Kosovo`s autonomy. Then shit hit the fan, as Kosovo became more like Israel (bombs, killings, terrorist acts, attacks on police and army, attacks on civilians...). Of course government tried to enforce the law by sending more and more police and army troops...
It culminated in 1999. when Albanians started open armed uprising against the Serbian government. Government, of course send even more troops... I`ll try not to comment what happened next, because some people see it as humanitarian disaster, and some don`t (But you can see that there are numerous trials for war crimes made by the both sides, civil wars are the bloodiest ones).
Then NATO came in bombing the sh*t out of Serbia, and as Andrewwhyte said they were not welcomed by the Serbs.
Status Quo was on since then. Kosovo was part of the Serbia on the paper, and not in reality. It was colony-like NATO mini state. Attacks on the remaining Serbian minority proceded.
The negotiations between Serbs and Albanians were futile, as USA at the very beginning of the negotiations said to ALbanians that they will have their independence no matter what. So you can imagine the farse. Even when Serbian government was ready to give them everything they want, except independence.
And now they proclaimed independence and some countries backed them up. OTOH the countries wit minority problems and separatist movements didn`t.
And that`s about it.
As I see it it`s like you let your friend live in your house and give him a room. Then, as the time pass by he spends more and more time in the living room, holds the TV remote all the time, leave hair in the bath tub... At the end he says I live in this house long enough, I think this room belongs to me and I`m gonna smash the hole in this wall and make my own door. Weather you like it or not.
Basically USA came and said: Kosovo is going to be independent weather you like it or not and there is nothing you can do about it. Period.
That is why general notion here is thet we`re ass-raped by the USA.

Yesterday we went to peaceful protest to state to the world, in dignity, that we disagree with this (like it would do any help...). There were, some say, about 1.2 million people. After this protest couple of friends and me went for a drink. Some time after that I got an SMS from my brother telling me to stay off the streets because he saw on TV that embassies are burning and all hell broke loose. When we got out it was like tornado passed by. Horrible. I said before, i hate drunken-redneck-mob. One girl burned to death in the embassy because she was hit by a torch. Really horrible.
That about sums it up. I know Albanians see it differently. They say: we live here, we are majority and we have every right to claim this to be our state...

Now try to replace word Kosovo with problem region of your choice (Quebc, Texas, Florida, Baskia...)

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Cetniks (ethnic Serbs in Croatia)

Correction: Cetniks are Serbian extreme nationalist movement not limited to Croatia.

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What happens to Bosnia?

I was in Bosnia during the war. My family still lives there. The Serbs in Bosnia now see it that if the Kosovo got independent, why wouldn`t we be independent too. Bosnia, although one country is made of two "entities": Serbian and Muslim-Croatian.
Balkans is one big can of worms and by the day I don`t think situation is improving. That is why a lot of young people (including myself) are thinking of getting the hell away from here.

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I stand corrected. Told you I was no expert on the Balkans. But since it was the region that set off the start of "The Great War", we should probably not ignore it and we should get our leaders to think twice before they just blindly accept independent declarations of complex enthic regions with histories going back long before the concept of an independent USA was ever conceived.

You`re right 100%. The last Balkan war (1991.-1995.) started when Germany (and some other countries) rushed to accept independence of Croatia, Bosnia and Slovenia.

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I'm going to amend my sentiments from "fucking serbs" to "fucking drunken rioters". Forgive me if I forgot there are good people there like you. Smile

Forgetaboutit. We`re used to be the world`s bad guys.

But, not everything is black. We get to jump from time to time. http://www.dropzone.com/videos/Miscellaneous/Season_2007._157.html
from season 2007. I was all over the place (Bosnia, Serbia, Croatia). We don`t make war all the time...

Sorry for such a long post.

dudeist skydiver #42

[BillyVance 34]

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Billy, you refer to the Serbs as Christians. It is important to remember that they are Orthodox Christians (Russian sphere of influence) while the Croats are Roman Catholic (German sphere of influence).

I thought that's what I called them?

Edited to add: not in this thread.... must have been another one...

"Mediocre people don't like high achievers, and high achievers don't like mediocre people." - SIX TIME National Champion coach Nick Saban

[kallend 2,106]

About 30 million casualties resulted from a previous dust-up in the Balkans. Dangerous place.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[mircan 0]

It can get dangerous from time to time. About every 50 years we have a war here. But I think it`s far from places like Liberia, Avganistan, Siera Leone...

However, my parents say it was a very, very nice place to live during Tito`s reign. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Josip_Broz_Tito)

dudeist skydiver #42

[CanuckInUSA 0]

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Sorry for such a long post

No it was a good read ... we in the west do not know as much as we should know from such a complex region and a couple of years ago I worked with a Serbian male and female in Vancouver. They were both good people. So I know Serbs are not the monsters some people in the media have made them out to be.

PS: It is interesting that Serbia and Montenegro were able to split with each other peacefully a couple of years ago. But I guess the enthic tensions did not exist there like they do in Kosovo. Oh and I am interested in the stability of this region because I know someone in neighboring Bulgaria and I would hate to see problems spill over into that entire region. It's bad enough what is happening in Iraq, Afghanistan, Pakistan (and now Turkey is in Iraq). Yikes ...

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[mircan 0]

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So I know Serbs are not the monsters some people in the media have made them out to be.

Well it seems that we aren`t experts when media relations are in question. Serbs are funny people. They tend to think that there is large world conspiracy against them. TV reports (and current global politics) just fuel that notion. But, I`m not even 100% serbian, I come from mixed family (my folks married when we were all one big happy family). And I have friends in all countries.

Second:
Serbia and Montenegro split by mutual agreement after referendum. It was a process that took several years. Not rushed. Lots of people here think that Serbs and Montenegros (i don`t know if this the right plural for citizens of Montenegro) are the same nation. But Albanians are majority in some parts of the Montenegro too, and I just hope there is not going to be similar problems over there.

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I know someone in neighboring Bulgaria and I would hate to see problems spill over into that entire region.

Noooooo. I don`t think this scenario is possible. Bulgaria is in the EU now.
OTOH, you mentioned Turkey. I find interesting that Turkey accepted Kosovo independence while they not only have very similar situation with Kurds, but they also invaded other country (Iraq) to fight and deal with Kurds.

dudeist skydiver #42

[Butters 0]

The world can be a f**ked up place.
Filled with the human race.
With race, sex, age, politics, religion, and more.
There are plenty of things to adore or abhor.
The world can be a f**ked up place.
Filled with the human race.

"That looks dangerous." Leopold Stotch

[superhina 0]

http://youtube.com/watch?v=qj0HSfbi4sU

I'm disagree whit you my Friend.Who don't want "idiot mob in riot " like that
P.S.
I'm just kidding, bastards are just bastard, even if they are " blonds " I work in one sport shop, and mob are devastate all

[mircan 0]

They trashed your store too...?
Anyway, blonds didn`t torch embassies. They were "just" stealing.
But this video makes my point. It seems that most damage was not made by people protesting, but by thief blonds and alike. Like the real reason for riots was just robbing.

Paradox:
They are stealing American clothes, against which they protested in the first place. And they steal it from the Serbian stores. Go figure...

Hina, are you still up for Sunday?

dudeist skydiver #42

[tbrown 26]

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Fucking Serbs...

I do not view the Serbs as innocent, but they are not 100% at fault here.

Okay, well I'll go for 99.9% then. Fucking Serbs have been whining like little crybabies about how picked on they are, while they've systematically murdered Bosnians, Croatians, and Kosovar Albanians. I mean think about it - they had to be really BAD to get Bill Clinton to go to war with them.

Fuck the Serbs, they brought it on themselves. For burning our embassy, the US should firebomb the fucking city of Belgrade. Serbs are vermin, just like the Palestinians.

Your humble servant.....Professor Gravity !

[Andy_Copland 0]

Not very up to date on your history are you? Just reading as far back to the part were the Serbs are doing all the murdering?

6 of one half a dozen of the other, you sound like a small minded tosser.

1338

People aint made of nothin' but water and shit.

Until morale improves, the beatings will continue.

[christelsabine 1]

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......
I mean think about it - they had to be really BAD to get Bill Clinton to go to war with them.

What a BS. Since when is it needed to be "bad" for the US to start a war somewhere else??

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Fuck the Serbs, they brought it on themselves. For burning our embassy, the US should firebomb the fucking city of Belgrade. Serbs are vermin, just like the Palestinians.

Jeez, your historical knowledge is overwhelming. Ever heard about Milosewic and what he did in the Kosovo during the nineties? Man, there is a Serbia without a Kosovo, ever heard that?!?

I'll refrain from answering to your "..... just like the Palestinians." That's a different building site; I doubt you know more about it than about Serbia.

Firebombing is the answer, always, right?

Holy shit.

dudeist skydiver # 3105

[mircan 0]

From your comment I can only understand that if the situation was the other way around (Serbia accepting Texas independence, * like that would ever happen) you would be one of the crowd burning Serbian embassy in Washington. Although I`m sad to read it here...

Man, I lived in Croatia just before the war, was in the Bosnia during the shit, and witnessed shitless bombing of Serbia after it. Please don`t talk to me about things that, as you clearly stated here, don`t know anything about. I guess you build your opinion based on CNN (and alike) TV reports.

And as far as the Clinton go, can you say: "Monica Lewinsky". It is sad that if you are a president of a big country, you can bomb another country just to cover up your lies about getting a blow job. That country being Sudan or Serbia is of no importance.

dudeist skydiver #42

[headcase 0]

Unfortunate you are so quick to condemn an entire nation and culture without knowing the true facts as they are. It is very complex. Your quick summation smacks of the nationalism which flames the fires that be. Serbs are tough intelligent hard-working and most of all civilized.

Two top tennis plyers now, the "Vladiball", Tesla, (and I can go on)-- but for a region with so few people they have contributed to modern society well out of proportion to their numbers. They suffer primarily from occupying the crossroads of the East -West and have been subject to the power struggles that have ebbed and flowed as a result for many millenia.
I can continue but only ask that you understand and not lightly make accusatory statements against the greater Serbian people. Lastly there is good intel that the violence was staged.

[Frenchy68 0]

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From your comment I can only understand that if the situation was the other way around (Serbia accepting Texas independence, * like that would ever happen) you would be one of the crowd burning Serbian embassy in Washington. Although I`m sad to read it here...

Actually, the civil war in the US would be an interesting example. The part which seceded (South) was subsequently violently brought back into the fold. The man leading the charge was later rewarded by having his face on a Dollar bill... We as human have many double standards. The internet thank god provides us with the ability to change the world, ignore while remaking history, thump our chest while proclaiming how greatly we shall kick some foreign ass, and give us the bravado we lack in our everyday lives.

"For once you have tasted Absinthe you will walk the earth with your eyes turned towards the gutter, for there you have been and there you will long to return."

[Amazon 7]

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We as human have many double standards. The internet thank god provides us with the ability to change the world, ignore while remaking history, thump our chest while proclaiming how greatly we shall kick some foreign ass, and give us the bravado we lack in our everyday lives.

I for one never thought that ethnic cleansing would become a reality in the late 20th century....but lets not forget who got the most bang for their buck in most of the former members of Yugoslavia. I would think that will take a while to live down.

[Gawain 0]

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Two top tennis plyers now, the "Vladiball", Tesla, (and I can go on)--

Tesla was born in Smiljan, Croatia and became a US citizen.

As for tennis, you're talking about Djokovic right? I don't know the other guy.

This region is a good example of how "resentments" affect societies to their core. From my perspective across the Atlantic, I would have thought that everyone would've simply rejoiced in the fall of the Soviet Union and Yugoslavia becoming a "free" nation.

What I watched unfold astonished me. My great-grandfather was from Croatia.

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Lastly there is good intel that the violence was staged.

Most events like that are...then they let the mob-mentality take hold.

So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh
Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright
'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life
Make light!

[Frenchy68 0]

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I would have thought that everyone would've simply rejoiced in the fall of the Soviet Union and Yugoslavia becoming a "free" nation.

I think people would be surprised at how many people would praise Tito's regime. Although it certainly wasn't a democracy (which has nothing to do with freedom BTW), it was far from being an overly repressive regime. Unlike the USSR, Albania, China, etc... people were pretty free to go in and out of Yougoslavia; there was a capitalist infrastructure and free enterprise, and there was stability and order. Sometimes countries work like website: they're not democracies, yet the majority puts up with it...

"For once you have tasted Absinthe you will walk the earth with your eyes turned towards the gutter, for there you have been and there you will long to return."

[headcase 0]

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Two top tennis plyers now, the "Vladiball", Tesla, (and I can go on)--

Tesla was born in Smiljan, Croatia and became a US citizen.
From Wikipedia:Nikola Tesla (Serbian Cyrillic: Никола Тесла) (10 July 1856 – 7 January 1943) was a Serbian inventor, physicist, mechanical engineer, and electrical engineer. Born in Smiljan, Croatian Krajina, Military Frontier, he was an ethnic Serb subject of the Austrian Empire and later became an American citizen.

As for tennis, you're talking about Djokovic right? I don't know the other guy.
In January 2008 he won his first Grand Slam title at the Australian Open. Djokovic is a proud Serb and belongs to the Serbian Orthodox Christian community. In February 2008, he conveyed his support via video link to a mass rally in Belgrade against the Kosovo Albanians' unilateral declaration of independence from Serbia.[8][9]

Ana Ivanović (Serbian Cyrillic: Ана Ивановић, pronounced [ˈanå iˈvaːnɔviʨ], listen (help·info) born November 6, 1987, in Belgrade) is a Serbian professional tennis player. She is currently ranked World No. 3 and is the top ranked Serbian player, just in front of compatriot Jelena Janković.

This region is a good example of how "resentments" affect societies to their core. From my perspective across the Atlantic, I would have thought that everyone would've simply rejoiced in the fall of the Soviet Union and Yugoslavia becoming a "free" nation.

No doubt about that.

What I watched unfold astonished me. My great-grandfather was from Croatia.

The Serbs latitude through the years of immigrants into their ancient homeland then later to be tossed out and THEY WERE SUBJECT TO PERSECUTION AND VIOLENCE contrary to the propaganda outside the region.

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Lastly there is good intel that the violence was staged.

Most events like that are...then they let the mob-mentality take hold.

The staged violence did its intent and that is to soil the greater serbian populace who peacefully rallied for their territory which has been owned for thousands of years....

[Amazon 7]

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The Serbs latitude through the years of immigrants into their ancient homeland then later to be tossed out and THEY WERE SUBJECT TO PERSECUTION AND VIOLENCE contrary to the propaganda outside the region.

So killing the "immigrants" by the thousands and dumping them into secret mass graves and interning the remaining men in death camps... and then gang raping the women and young girls was all just propoganda. It seems that the ethnic cleansing did a pretty good job of depopulating large areas of anyone but Serbs.. they would finish with a village and move onto the next village I guess the trials at the world court for all thos actions by the Serbian Armies are just misunderstandings too.

[Andy_Copland 0]

The mass graves you are talking about are pretty tiny compared to the mass graves in Nagasaki and Hiroshima.

Edit: http://www.spiegel.de/international/europe/0,1518,516214,00.html Clinton paves the way for an Islamic State

1338

People aint made of nothin' but water and shit.

Until morale improves, the beatings will continue.

[Gawain 0]

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The mass graves you are talking about are pretty tiny compared to the mass graves in Nagasaki and Hiroshima.

This should be Godwin's Law II. You're really comparing WWII action to genocide?

Official accounts for casualties range, but from the blast, and long term affects it averages to about 200,000 +/-.

Now, in just a few years, without the aid of mass destructive device, there were accounts, none official that I could find, of between 100,000-250,000 muslims wiped out in the Balkans.

Let's just add that up to the 20th Century tally that Europe shares as a whole...

Just because Serbia was officially cleared of genocide does not mean mass shootings like Srebrenica did not occur, not does it account for hundreds of thousands of missing people. They didn't go up in smoke.

So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh
Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright
'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life
Make light!