Government - lieing bastards - surprise

[shropshire 0]

They have previously denied that they had allowed this appaling act to happen on British territory - scum

clicky

(.)Y(.)
Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome

[nigel99 625]

But being British territory not mainland Britain it is probable that it was pure miscommunication.

Ultimately it is the US to blame - they are behaving like a true rogue state - they would be screaming bloody murder if Iran did that to a US citizen.

Experienced jumper - someone who has made mistakes more often than I have and lived.

[shropshire 0]

Indeed.

(.)Y(.)
Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome

[dannydan 5]

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But being British territory not mainland Britain it is probable that it was pure miscommunication.

Ultimately it is the US to blame - they are behaving like a true rogue state - they would be screaming bloody murder if Iran did that to a US citizen.

I think ""bloody" is a British term.... and I am pretty sure we would see a small snip it on our news (for which i don't watch rarely)and then we would all climb back into our SUVs and drive off into our own individual little worlds again....

[Gawain 0]

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But Mr Miliband told the BBC later: "I do not believe the US government set out to mislead the British government. I believe they told us in good faith they had no evidence of the use of Diego Garcia."

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He added that speculation about a CIA holding facility on Diego Garcia was "false" - as were allegations that detainees were transported to be tortured.

"Torture is against our laws and our values. And, given our mission, CIA could have no interest in a process destined to produce bad intelligence."

I don't know if the news made it across the pond, but there were three official acknowledgments about waterboarding. Torture is not reliable. http://www.reuters.com/article/latestCrisis/idUSN05178151

Example: After I was wounded and undergoing "wash-out" surgeries, one of the pre-op procedures was incomplete and the surgeon went to move my amputated leg (still open). The resulting scream is something I could never willingly reproduce. If someone had asked me if I was the second gunman on the grassy knoll, I would've said yes.

That wasn't even an intentional infliction of pain.

So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh
Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright
'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life
Make light!

[freeflysteve 0]

What and you believed the government and the
£&%$£ puppets that somehow got voted in.
Anyway good news is we now all own the northern rock,oh shit apart from about £45 billion in some trust,oh fuck me DARLING missed that bit!!!

Swooping, huh? I love that stuff ... all the flashing lights and wailing sirens ... it's very exciting!

[Gawain 0]

Quote

What and you believed the government and the
£&%$£ puppets that somehow got voted in.
Anyway good news is we now all own the northern rock,oh shit apart from about £45 billion in some trust,oh fuck me DARLING missed that bit!!!

What? You don't mind owning a piece of the rock and a £25B bailout?

So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh
Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright
'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life
Make light!

[freeflysteve 0]

What good is a bust bank,should have let Branson have it!!!!!

This government can't run a country let alone run a bank thats why Brown let the bank of england make interest decisions(sort of anyway).

Swooping, huh? I love that stuff ... all the flashing lights and wailing sirens ... it's very exciting!

[shropshire 0]

I can't even begin to imagine.

(.)Y(.)
Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome

[shropshire 0]

Indeed, Beardy Branson would have done a much better job that the highly paid government stooge will do, that's for sure.

(.)Y(.)
Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome

[SkyDekker 1,465]

Max,

I know that you and I don't see eye to eye on many things. What you have gone through, I cannot even come close to imagining. However, the mindset and positivity you have displayed throughout it all is nothing short of admirable and worthy of a lot of respect!!

[jakee 1,596]

I love the way the CIA states that it "Only just found out" that they used Diego Garcia as a stop over. Do they not know where their rendition flights are going?

Quote

I don't know if the news made it across the pond, but there were three official acknowledgments about waterboarding. Torture is not reliable. http://www.reuters.com/...Crisis/idUSN05178151

Example: After I was wounded and undergoing "wash-out" surgeries, one of the pre-op procedures was incomplet and the surgeon went to move my amputated leg (still open). The resulting scream is something I could never willingly reproduce. If someone had asked me if I was the second gunman on the grassy knoll, I would've said yes.

So you've got to wonder what justification the CIA has in continuing their "high-value terrorist interrogation program" involving flying prisoners to countries that go way above and beyond mere waterboarding?

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[Gawain 0]

Quote

I love the way the CIA states that it "Only just found out" that they used Diego Garcia as a stop over. Do they not know where their rendition flights are going?

Well, remember that just about everything the CIA does is classified. Just being employed by the CIA is a secret of sorts. In such an environment, I imagine that even some policies and initiatives do not get effectively communicated due to filtration of "need to know". So, while it compartmentalizes everything, it also creates a genuine, if not intentional "plausible deniability". So, does the DCI know that? Probably not. The Dir. Ops? Very possible. How that get communicated within? Hell if I know...

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So you've got to wonder what justification the CIA has in continuing their "high-value terrorist interrogation program" involving flying prisoners to countries that go way above and beyond mere waterboarding?

I suppose, but I am not convinced that "torture" is the sole reason for that. As an example, who can better relate to the mind of an Islamic extremist? Maybe another Islamic extremist...who happens to live in Egypt?

So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh
Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright
'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life
Make light!

[jakee 1,596]

Quote

I suppose, but I am not convinced that "torture" is the sole reason for that. As an example, who can better relate to the mind of an Islamic extremist? Maybe another Islamic extremist...who happens to live in Egypt?

Problem there is, we know that if we send suspects to certain countries they will be tortured as part of the interrogation process. It's going to happen. Just because the torturer shares his subjects religion and/or ethnicity it doesn't lessen the chances of getting inaccurate info through torture.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[shropshire 0]

Quote

I suppose, but I am not convinced that "torture" is the sole reason for that. As an example, who can better relate to the mind of an Islamic extremist? Maybe another Islamic extremist...who happens to live in Egypt?

I'd bet that you are correct... I'm sure that there are many who 'know' that torture does not, in and of it's self 'work' BUT the fear of it passes a powerful message, I'd suspect.


To add: a bit like beheading. Once it happens you're just as dead as you would be if shot or hanged... but the thought of it is extra-powerful (shudder!!)

(.)Y(.)
Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome

[jakee 1,596]

Quote

I'd bet that you are correct... I'm sure that there are many who 'know' that torture does not, in and of it's self 'work' BUT the fear of it passes a powerful message, I'd suspect.

And generally that message is along the lines of "Rise up and fight these bastards who are torturing your brothers!" Not particularly productive for us.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[shropshire 0]

Equally good point.

(.)Y(.)
Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome

[kallend 2,151]

Quote

I love the way the CIA states that it "Only just found out" that they used Diego Garcia as a stop over. Do they not know where their rendition flights are going?

Quote

I don't know if the news made it across the pond, but there were three official acknowledgments about waterboarding. Torture is not reliable. http://www.reuters.com/...Crisis/idUSN05178151

Example: After I was wounded and undergoing "wash-out" surgeries, one of the pre-op procedures was incomplet and the surgeon went to move my amputated leg (still open). The resulting scream is something I could never willingly reproduce. If someone had asked me if I was the second gunman on the grassy knoll, I would've said yes.

So you've got to wonder what justification the CIA has in continuing their "high-value terrorist interrogation program" involving flying prisoners to countries that go way above and beyond mere waterboarding?

"Torture is against our laws and our values. And, given our mission, CIA could have no interest in a process destined to produce bad intelligence."

I think that deserves an irony score, but the meter doesn't go high enough.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[Gawain 0]

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I suppose, but I am not convinced that "torture" is the sole reason for that. As an example, who can better relate to the mind of an Islamic extremist? Maybe another Islamic extremist...who happens to live in Egypt?

Problem there is, we know that if we send suspects to certain countries they will be tortured as part of the interrogation process. It's going to happen. Just because the torturer shares his subjects religion and/or ethnicity it doesn't lessen the chances of getting inaccurate info through torture.

We aren't the only people that know these things. Remember that fear is the great motivator here. If an insurgent is told he is going to Saudi Arabia as a first stop, and he knows how prisoners are treated there...the mere thought of going there is going to run his mind absolutely crazy.

There is definitely a psychological element to the rendition flights.

So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh
Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright
'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life
Make light!

[vortexring 0]

In these cases again we have media dramatization exasperating the people with their story.

Besides - what Government didn't lie. Lying to the people is the rule.

'for it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "chuck 'im out, the brute!" But it's "saviour of 'is country" when the guns begin to shoot.'

[jakee 1,596]

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We aren't the only people that know these things. Remember that fear is the great motivator here. If an insurgent is told he is going to Saudi Arabia as a first stop, and he knows how prisoners are treated there...the mere thought of going there is going to run his mind absolutely crazy.

There is definitely a psychological element to the rendition flights.

So?

You've already said that torture is unreliable because the subject will say anything to make it stop. What makes you think fear of torture is going to be any better?

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[Gawain 0]

Quote

Quote

We aren't the only people that know these things. Remember that fear is the great motivator here. If an insurgent is told he is going to Saudi Arabia as a first stop, and he knows how prisoners are treated there...the mere thought of going there is going to run his mind absolutely crazy.

There is definitely a psychological element to the rendition flights.

So?

You've already said that torture is unreliable because the subject will say anything to make it stop. What makes you think fear of torture is going to be any better?

You're kidding right? Psychological stress and physical stress are completely different.

We'll use my previous example. If someone had asked me at that moment to admit to be the second gunman on the grassy knoll to stop that from happening again. I would've caved. No doubt. The problem is that there is no way to really know if I'm telling the truth. My senses are overloaded, there is no accurate way to see how I respond to anything. More pain will change the answer. More and more will end up knocking me unconscious or killing me.

When someone is "coherent" there are tell tail signs to knowing if what they're saying is true, even if there is an element of fear.

So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh
Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright
'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life
Make light!

[jakee 1,596]

Quote

You're kidding right? Psychological stress and physical stress are completely different.

We'll use my previous example. If someone had asked me at that moment to admit to be the second gunman on the grassy knoll to stop that from happening again. I would've caved. No doubt. The problem is that there is no way to really know if I'm telling the truth. My senses are overloaded, there is no accurate way to see how I respond to anything. More pain will change the answer. More and more will end up knocking me unconscious or killing me.

When someone is "coherent" there are tell tail signs to knowing if what they're saying is true, even if there is an element of fear.

No, I'm not kiding. Show me some research that says psychological stress produces reliable information.

In the meantime, check out the http://www.dia.mil/college/3866.pdf report on Interrogation techniques.

Of particular interest may be chapter 3, Research on Detection of Deception:What We Know vs. What We Think We Know. ( You could also Google "Curveball")

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[Gawain 0]

Quote

Quote

You're kidding right? Psychological stress and physical stress are completely different.

We'll use my previous example. If someone had asked me at that moment to admit to be the second gunman on the grassy knoll to stop that from happening again. I would've caved. No doubt. The problem is that there is no way to really know if I'm telling the truth. My senses are overloaded, there is no accurate way to see how I respond to anything. More pain will change the answer. More and more will end up knocking me unconscious or killing me.

When someone is "coherent" there are tell tail signs to knowing if what they're saying is true, even if there is an element of fear.

No, I'm not kiding. Show me some research that says psychological stress produces reliable information.

In the meantime, check out the http://www.dia.mil/college/3866.pdf report on Interrogation techniques.

Of particular interest may be chapter 3, Research on Detection of Deception:What We Know vs. What We Think We Know. ( You could also Google "Curveball")

Your link shows how psychological avenues may reduce resistance to obtaining information on page 36:

Quote

What strategies might increase or decrease a source’s willingness to provide
information?
Considerable social science literature on persuasion and infl uence may be
relevant to the development of processes for educing information. The six most
consistent factors affecting interpersonal infl uence are reciprocity, scarcity, liking,
authority, commitment/consistency, and social validation. Fear can sometimes
be a motivator when apprehension is high and the recommended behavior is
believed to be highly effective.

Thanks for the link. Good information there.

So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh
Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright
'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life
Make light!

[jakee 1,596]

Quote

Your link shows how psychological avenues may reduce resistance to obtaining information on page 36:

It does - of course it also notes that the subject has to genuinely believe that the interrogator will only carry out his threats if the subject does not co-operate. I'm not sure how easy it's going to be to convince someone who's already in the air that they really will turn the jet around if he opens up...


(And while this is a very interesting sidebar it is getting further removed from the central issue that the CIA has been renditioning (renditing, rendering?) people to countries where they have been brutally tortured for long periods of time.)

Do you want to have an ideagasm?