Zipp0 1 #1 February 20, 2008 First, the food industry. How many million of pounds of tainted beef do we have to feed to our kids at lunch before we take this seriously? In ,y entire (short) life I have never heard as many food system horror stories than with the Bush admin in charge. Second, we need more oversight in the financial markets. The ENTIRE mortgage mess that we are dealing with now is due ENTIRELY to the fact that the market is unregulated. This is what happens where there is no government to control and restrain human impulse and greed. Also, speculation needs to be removed from food and energy markets. -------------------------- Chuck Norris doesn't do push-ups, he pushes the Earth down. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Lefty 0 #2 February 20, 2008 Just in case this post isn't a joke, I'll respond. The government has a hand in the current "mortgage crisis" (why do they call it a crisis, anyway? This is a great time to buy a home). It lowered interest rates and got people who were on the fence to purchase a home. It also encouraged the banks to loan them money even if their credit was not "prime". So there is regulation (if indirectly) in the housing market already through the Fed. About the food, well, the government seems to be failing in your opinion. So you want more government to fix the problem?Provoking a reaction isn't the same thing as saying something meaningful. -Calvin Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lawrocket 3 #3 February 20, 2008 QuoteFirst, the food industry. How many million of pounds of tainted beef do we have to feed to our kids at lunch before we take this seriously? In ,y entire (short) life I have never heard as many food system horror stories than with the Bush admin in charge. The USDA has inspectors all over the place. The oversight is there - but if the inspectors are not doing their jobs properly, then what? It's not lack of oversight. It's GOVERNMENT oversight. And, by the way, I remember things being pretty bad in the 90's. Jack in the Box (4 dead in Seattle Area). The salmonella ice cream. The outbreak from unpasteurized apple juice (Odwalla). Or the Hep A strawberries in school lunches. I remember the Jalisco Cheese incident from the 80's, too. From what I've seen, illness outbreaks have slowed down. Quote Second, we need more oversight in the financial markets. The ENTIRE mortgage mess that we are dealing with now is due ENTIRELY to the fact that the market is unregulated. This is what happens where there is no government to control and restrain human impulse and greed. Entirely to market being unregulated? Huh?????? My wife is hotter than your wife. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Zipp0 1 #4 February 20, 2008 Quote Just in case this post isn't a joke, I'll respond. The government has a hand in the current "mortgage crisis" (why do they call it a crisis, anyway? This is a great time to buy a home). It lowered interest rates and got people who were on the fence to purchase a home. It also encouraged the banks to loan them money even if their credit was not "prime". So there is regulation (if indirectly) in the housing market already through the Fed. About the food, well, the government seems to be failing in your opinion. So you want more government to fix the problem? Just in case your response wasn't a joke.... It was, right? Seriously, I mean, spinning the mortgage crisis as a POSITIVE??? That's FUCKING HILARIOUS!!!!On the food issue, I said more/BETTER. Bush put the fox in charge of the hen house in many government agencies. That needs to be fixed. -------------------------- Chuck Norris doesn't do push-ups, he pushes the Earth down. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites lawrocket 3 #5 February 20, 2008 I agree with Lefty. This is not a "crisis." This market is now a "return to sanity." How many people lost large sums of money when the tech bubble burst? Plenty. Now we have a large number of people losing to foreclosure. Banks loaned money to people they had no business loaning to. People who had no business receiving these loans lost out. WHat you are recommending is government oversight to prevent most of these loans. In other words, those 8 out of 10 subprime borrowers who have maintained their payments should have been blocked out, thus widening the gap of the haves and have nots. Let's hear it for government regulation that will ensure that minorities stay out of suburbia. YAY!!!!! No better way to hold them down than a government that says, "We won't let you get up. It's in your best interest." My wife is hotter than your wife. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Zipp0 1 #6 February 20, 2008 QuoteI agree with Lefty. This is not a "crisis." This market is now a "return to sanity." You agree with Lefty; every economist on the planet agrees with me. Then there's the old - "When it affects you, it's a return to sanity. When it affects me, it's a crisis." -------------------------- Chuck Norris doesn't do push-ups, he pushes the Earth down. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Andrewwhyte 1 #7 February 20, 2008 Quote You agree with Lefty; every economist on the planet agrees with me. And most of them were predicting this as early as five years ago. yes even the ones at the big banks. The deal was they needed to make enough windfall to cover the losses when they happened; and they did. Blaming the government for lowering the interest rate and forestalling a recession for six years is a bit silly, but that is political reality. In hindsight governments are not judged on whether there is a recession, but rather on how deep and how long. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kallend 2,150 #8 February 20, 2008 QuoteQuoteFirst, the food industry. How many million of pounds of tainted beef do we have to feed to our kids at lunch before we take this seriously? In ,y entire (short) life I have never heard as many food system horror stories than with the Bush admin in charge. The USDA has inspectors all over the place. The oversight is there - but if the inspectors are not doing their jobs properly, then what? It's not lack of oversight. It's GOVERNMENT oversight. There are thousands of vacant USDA inspector positions, and the rules have been changed so that inspectors are limited in what they can inspect and the companies can write their own food safety plans. Very often all the inspectors are allowed to inspect is company paperwork, not the actual operations.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites rehmwa 2 #9 February 20, 2008 "More/Better" I can read this 3 ways: 1 - More and Better 2 - More or Better 3 - More = Better From your post history, I'd have to read that as #3. But, for clarity, which do you mean? Because, I'd say we need "Less and Better" (in the idea that Better would enable Less and result in a net improvement of less interference, but with improved effectiveness) would be the right answer in terms of Government oversight in most things. ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites rehmwa 2 #10 February 20, 2008 I believe we do need More Butter Oversight I mean, when you get popcorn at the theator and they pump out that "butter-like" flavoring, it only really coats the top inch of popcorn. Obviously - "popcorn, popcorn, popcorn, popcorn, popcorn, butter-like oil" is NOT effective we need - "popcorn, butter-like oil, popcorn, butter-like oil, popcorn, butter-like oil, popcorn, butter-like oil, popcorn, butter-like oil" would be the more correct process ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Andrewwhyte 1 #11 February 20, 2008 Quote"More/Better" I can read this 3 ways: 1 - More and Better 2 - More or Better 3 - More = Better From your post history, I'd have to read that as #3. But, for clarity, which do you mean? Because, I'd say we need "Less and Better" (in the idea that Better would enable Less and result in a net improvement of less interference, but with improved effectiveness) would be the right answer in terms of Government oversight in most things. Que? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Lefty 0 #12 February 20, 2008 QuoteQuoteI agree with Lefty. This is not a "crisis." This market is now a "return to sanity." You agree with Lefty; every economist on the planet agrees with me. Then there's the old - "When it affects you, it's a return to sanity. When it affects me, it's a crisis." I stand by my assessment. You all can run around and cry about a "crisis". I see this as an opportunity for many people to finally get the house they've been wanting. If they're dumb and get themselves locked into a loan they can't make payments on, whose fault is that? Let's run down the checklist to see: a) Government's: No b) Mine: No c) The bank's: No d) Their own: YES!Provoking a reaction isn't the same thing as saying something meaningful. -Calvin Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Lefty 0 #13 February 20, 2008 QuoteI believe we do need More Butter Oversight So now your list would read 1 - More and Better 2 - More or Better 3 - More = Better 4 - More and Butter I think we're getting closer to a solution :)Provoking a reaction isn't the same thing as saying something meaningful. -Calvin Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites leroydb 0 #14 February 20, 2008 Food industry: I can see your point, but why do we need the gov't to protect us from ourselves Mortgage: CAN''T blame anyone but those that choose to get an Adjustable mortgage... I didn't and would never get one....Leroy ..I knew I was an unwanted baby when I saw my bath toys were a toaster and a radio... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Zipp0 1 #15 February 20, 2008 Quote I stand by my assessment. And I admire that. Standing up for your argument, no matter how invalid. Someone call the president - his methods are rubbing off! -------------------------- Chuck Norris doesn't do push-ups, he pushes the Earth down. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mnealtx 0 #16 February 20, 2008 QuoteQuote I stand by my assessment. And I admire that. Standing up for your argument, no matter how invalid. Someone call the president - his methods are rubbing off! Your postulate: Government failed, so we need more government - THAT'S the invalid argument.Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Lefty 0 #17 February 20, 2008 QuoteQuote I stand by my assessment. And I admire that. Standing up for your argument, no matter how invalid. Someone call the president - his methods are rubbing off! Did you read my handy little list about where to assign blame for a foreclosure? It might help you.Provoking a reaction isn't the same thing as saying something meaningful. -Calvin Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Zipp0 1 #18 February 20, 2008 Quote Entirely to market being unregulated? Huh?????? Uh, yes. In a nutshell, the mortgage industry is largely unregulated. So mortgage brokers were able to sell mortgages to low-income financially-unsavvy people which could be serviced with their current income, but could not as soon as the low teaser rate reset. You might say, stupid people, their fault, however, mortgage brokers told these financially unsavvy people not to worry, they could always refinance. And these mortgage products were entirely new; never before had mortgage brokers sold mortgages that could not be serviced (paid by the holder) after a set period of time. In prior years, mortgage brokers would not give someone a mortgage if they were not able to pay it due to near-term rate adjustments. But with interest rates low and these low rates driving housing prices higher, the last few years were a total mortgage boom. And mortgage brokers weren't selling mortgages to hold, they repackage mortgages and sell them, profiting twice (initial mortgage fees and sale of mortgage). They pool lots of mortgages, then sell them off. And what wasn't disclosed to the buyers were the high risks of these debt instruments. But that's okay to the buyers, as they all bought debt insurance. If you're insured, no problem, right? However, the debt insurance market is unregulated, but that's okay because debt insurance is between sophisticated investors, right? A big financial services firm, pension fund, hedge fund, mutual fund, etc. is a smart investor. The companies that offer debt insurance are smart too. Or so you'd think. So mortgage brokers sold ticking timebomb mortgages to low-income people telling them not to worry, then packaged the mortgages and sold them to investors. These investors didn't really care about the risk as they sold the risk to bond insurance companies by buying insurance. But guess what happens when a bond insurance company has insurance obligations of $60 billion in bonds yet only $500 million in cash to cover those obligations. The bond insurance companies go belly up, because the debt insurance market is unregulated, companies have gotten into the practice of selling insurance on more bonds than actually exist, giving speculators the ability to bet that bonds will go worthless. So you could pay a small premium, for example, on a corporate, muni, or other type of bond in a bet that the entity will not be able to pay it back. You would then collect the full price of the bond should that happen. This type of speculation does not exist in the stock market, for example, because it is regulated. In the stock market, you can sell a stock short or buy an options contract, however in both those cases you have offsetting transactions. You can't short a billion shares of a company if there are only a million shares outstanding. Anyway, so now the insurance companies have gone belly up and big finance players like Citibank etc. are writing off billions of dollars of these CDOs as they are worthless. Does that limit the damage? Heck no, because all those bond insurance companies were doing what? Insuring perfectly respectable debt instruments like muni bonds, student loan bonds, etc. But now these investments don't have the protection of insurance, so what happens? The low rates that towns, cities, companies, and other entities used to get when they borrowed money have now shot up through the roof. So where a municipality could sell bonds with a 4 % interest rate, they now have to sell them with a 15% rate to off-set the risk since no one can insure them (that's what Warren Buffett is trying to do, skim the cream of the bond insurance business off the top by getting all the insurance business for these quality bonds). So now we're in a massive credit crunch, which is partly slowing our economy and driving world markets lower. -------------------------- Chuck Norris doesn't do push-ups, he pushes the Earth down. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites beowulf 1 #19 February 20, 2008 QuoteQuoteQuoteFirst, the food industry. How many million of pounds of tainted beef do we have to feed to our kids at lunch before we take this seriously? In ,y entire (short) life I have never heard as many food system horror stories than with the Bush admin in charge. The USDA has inspectors all over the place. The oversight is there - but if the inspectors are not doing their jobs properly, then what? It's not lack of oversight. It's GOVERNMENT oversight. There are thousands of vacant USDA inspector positions, and the rules have been changed so that inspectors are limited in what they can inspect and the companies can write their own food safety plans. Very often all the inspectors are allowed to inspect is company paperwork, not the actual operations. How do you know that? About 12 years ago I worked at a meat packing plant in Rochelle, IL and the USDA inspectors routinely did inspections multiple times a day. Not inspections of the paper work. I personally witnessed them making rounds through out the plant and have even seen them shut down the entire plant and bring in the wash crew. Have things changed that much? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Gawain 0 #20 February 20, 2008 QuoteFirst, the food industry. How many million of pounds of tainted beef do we have to feed to our kids at lunch before we take this seriously? In ,y entire (short) life I have never heard as many food system horror stories than with the Bush admin in charge. Huh? As I understand it, it was an investigation that revealed what was going wrong at that plant in California to begin with, so...um... QuoteSecond, we need more oversight in the financial markets. The ENTIRE mortgage mess that we are dealing with now is due ENTIRELY to the fact that the market is unregulated. This is what happens where there is no government to control and restrain human impulse and greed. Also, speculation needs to be removed from food and energy markets. Yeah, because regulations help industry...I suppose you like the idea of regulating the airline industry again. Regulatory issues are what keep your power bills stagnant (and higher in many cases), your phone bill a headache, and let us not forget the newest regulation for campaigning, McCain/Feingold. I will agree with you that there needs to be better leadership in the public and private sector to instill better stewardship and restore confidence. However, nothing speaks as powerfully as the consumer. That plant in New Jersey is out of business. The one in California will surely go under. Better companies will rise in their wake. That is how free markets work.So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright 'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life Make light! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Gawain 0 #21 February 20, 2008 QuoteQuote Entirely to market being unregulated? Huh?????? Uh, yes. In a nutshell, the mortgage industry is largely unregulated. That is not true. The Banking industry is heavily regulated.So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright 'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life Make light! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Zipp0 1 #22 February 20, 2008 QuoteQuoteQuote Entirely to market being unregulated? Huh?????? Uh, yes. In a nutshell, the mortgage industry is largely unregulated. That is not true. The Banking industry is heavily regulated. I said mortgage, not banking. Go read my whole post. I explained it as thoroughly as I care to. Mortgage companuies are acting like banks, but not regulated like banks. -------------------------- Chuck Norris doesn't do push-ups, he pushes the Earth down. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kallend 2,150 #23 February 20, 2008 QuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteFirst, the food industry. How many million of pounds of tainted beef do we have to feed to our kids at lunch before we take this seriously? In ,y entire (short) life I have never heard as many food system horror stories than with the Bush admin in charge. The USDA has inspectors all over the place. The oversight is there - but if the inspectors are not doing their jobs properly, then what? It's not lack of oversight. It's GOVERNMENT oversight. There are thousands of vacant USDA inspector positions, and the rules have been changed so that inspectors are limited in what they can inspect and the companies can write their own food safety plans. Very often all the inspectors are allowed to inspect is company paperwork, not the actual operations. How do you know that? lots of sources, including the USDA Inspector General's Reports to Congress. The high vacancy rate for FSIS inspectors is a matter of record. Here's a good read - just one of many. You can also look at FSIS budgets over the past 8 years, and changes in FSIS funding of state food inspection programs.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Zipp0 1 #24 February 20, 2008 Quote Huh? As I understand it, it was an investigation that revealed what was going wrong at that plant in California to begin with, so...um... You understand it wrong, then. The investigation was done by the humane society, not food inspectors. It was the first they did and uncovered all these issues. They were shocked at how bad things were at the very first investigative look. -------------------------- Chuck Norris doesn't do push-ups, he pushes the Earth down. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Lefty 0 #25 February 20, 2008 QuoteQuote Huh? As I understand it, it was an investigation that revealed what was going wrong at that plant in California to begin with, so...um... You understand it wrong, then. The investigation was done by the humane society, not food inspectors. It was the first they did and uncovered all these issues. They were shocked at how bad things were at the very first investigative look. So a non-government organization discovered the inadequacies of the government, in essence doing the government's job better....and you think government is the solution.Provoking a reaction isn't the same thing as saying something meaningful. -Calvin Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 3 4 5 Next Page 1 of 5 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 0 Go To Topic Listing
Zipp0 1 #4 February 20, 2008 Quote Just in case this post isn't a joke, I'll respond. The government has a hand in the current "mortgage crisis" (why do they call it a crisis, anyway? This is a great time to buy a home). It lowered interest rates and got people who were on the fence to purchase a home. It also encouraged the banks to loan them money even if their credit was not "prime". So there is regulation (if indirectly) in the housing market already through the Fed. About the food, well, the government seems to be failing in your opinion. So you want more government to fix the problem? Just in case your response wasn't a joke.... It was, right? Seriously, I mean, spinning the mortgage crisis as a POSITIVE??? That's FUCKING HILARIOUS!!!!On the food issue, I said more/BETTER. Bush put the fox in charge of the hen house in many government agencies. That needs to be fixed. -------------------------- Chuck Norris doesn't do push-ups, he pushes the Earth down. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lawrocket 3 #5 February 20, 2008 I agree with Lefty. This is not a "crisis." This market is now a "return to sanity." How many people lost large sums of money when the tech bubble burst? Plenty. Now we have a large number of people losing to foreclosure. Banks loaned money to people they had no business loaning to. People who had no business receiving these loans lost out. WHat you are recommending is government oversight to prevent most of these loans. In other words, those 8 out of 10 subprime borrowers who have maintained their payments should have been blocked out, thus widening the gap of the haves and have nots. Let's hear it for government regulation that will ensure that minorities stay out of suburbia. YAY!!!!! No better way to hold them down than a government that says, "We won't let you get up. It's in your best interest." My wife is hotter than your wife. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zipp0 1 #6 February 20, 2008 QuoteI agree with Lefty. This is not a "crisis." This market is now a "return to sanity." You agree with Lefty; every economist on the planet agrees with me. Then there's the old - "When it affects you, it's a return to sanity. When it affects me, it's a crisis." -------------------------- Chuck Norris doesn't do push-ups, he pushes the Earth down. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Andrewwhyte 1 #7 February 20, 2008 Quote You agree with Lefty; every economist on the planet agrees with me. And most of them were predicting this as early as five years ago. yes even the ones at the big banks. The deal was they needed to make enough windfall to cover the losses when they happened; and they did. Blaming the government for lowering the interest rate and forestalling a recession for six years is a bit silly, but that is political reality. In hindsight governments are not judged on whether there is a recession, but rather on how deep and how long. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,150 #8 February 20, 2008 QuoteQuoteFirst, the food industry. How many million of pounds of tainted beef do we have to feed to our kids at lunch before we take this seriously? In ,y entire (short) life I have never heard as many food system horror stories than with the Bush admin in charge. The USDA has inspectors all over the place. The oversight is there - but if the inspectors are not doing their jobs properly, then what? It's not lack of oversight. It's GOVERNMENT oversight. There are thousands of vacant USDA inspector positions, and the rules have been changed so that inspectors are limited in what they can inspect and the companies can write their own food safety plans. Very often all the inspectors are allowed to inspect is company paperwork, not the actual operations.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites rehmwa 2 #9 February 20, 2008 "More/Better" I can read this 3 ways: 1 - More and Better 2 - More or Better 3 - More = Better From your post history, I'd have to read that as #3. But, for clarity, which do you mean? Because, I'd say we need "Less and Better" (in the idea that Better would enable Less and result in a net improvement of less interference, but with improved effectiveness) would be the right answer in terms of Government oversight in most things. ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites rehmwa 2 #10 February 20, 2008 I believe we do need More Butter Oversight I mean, when you get popcorn at the theator and they pump out that "butter-like" flavoring, it only really coats the top inch of popcorn. Obviously - "popcorn, popcorn, popcorn, popcorn, popcorn, butter-like oil" is NOT effective we need - "popcorn, butter-like oil, popcorn, butter-like oil, popcorn, butter-like oil, popcorn, butter-like oil, popcorn, butter-like oil" would be the more correct process ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Andrewwhyte 1 #11 February 20, 2008 Quote"More/Better" I can read this 3 ways: 1 - More and Better 2 - More or Better 3 - More = Better From your post history, I'd have to read that as #3. But, for clarity, which do you mean? Because, I'd say we need "Less and Better" (in the idea that Better would enable Less and result in a net improvement of less interference, but with improved effectiveness) would be the right answer in terms of Government oversight in most things. Que? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Lefty 0 #12 February 20, 2008 QuoteQuoteI agree with Lefty. This is not a "crisis." This market is now a "return to sanity." You agree with Lefty; every economist on the planet agrees with me. Then there's the old - "When it affects you, it's a return to sanity. When it affects me, it's a crisis." I stand by my assessment. You all can run around and cry about a "crisis". I see this as an opportunity for many people to finally get the house they've been wanting. If they're dumb and get themselves locked into a loan they can't make payments on, whose fault is that? Let's run down the checklist to see: a) Government's: No b) Mine: No c) The bank's: No d) Their own: YES!Provoking a reaction isn't the same thing as saying something meaningful. -Calvin Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Lefty 0 #13 February 20, 2008 QuoteI believe we do need More Butter Oversight So now your list would read 1 - More and Better 2 - More or Better 3 - More = Better 4 - More and Butter I think we're getting closer to a solution :)Provoking a reaction isn't the same thing as saying something meaningful. -Calvin Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites leroydb 0 #14 February 20, 2008 Food industry: I can see your point, but why do we need the gov't to protect us from ourselves Mortgage: CAN''T blame anyone but those that choose to get an Adjustable mortgage... I didn't and would never get one....Leroy ..I knew I was an unwanted baby when I saw my bath toys were a toaster and a radio... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Zipp0 1 #15 February 20, 2008 Quote I stand by my assessment. And I admire that. Standing up for your argument, no matter how invalid. Someone call the president - his methods are rubbing off! -------------------------- Chuck Norris doesn't do push-ups, he pushes the Earth down. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mnealtx 0 #16 February 20, 2008 QuoteQuote I stand by my assessment. And I admire that. Standing up for your argument, no matter how invalid. Someone call the president - his methods are rubbing off! Your postulate: Government failed, so we need more government - THAT'S the invalid argument.Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Lefty 0 #17 February 20, 2008 QuoteQuote I stand by my assessment. And I admire that. Standing up for your argument, no matter how invalid. Someone call the president - his methods are rubbing off! Did you read my handy little list about where to assign blame for a foreclosure? It might help you.Provoking a reaction isn't the same thing as saying something meaningful. -Calvin Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Zipp0 1 #18 February 20, 2008 Quote Entirely to market being unregulated? Huh?????? Uh, yes. In a nutshell, the mortgage industry is largely unregulated. So mortgage brokers were able to sell mortgages to low-income financially-unsavvy people which could be serviced with their current income, but could not as soon as the low teaser rate reset. You might say, stupid people, their fault, however, mortgage brokers told these financially unsavvy people not to worry, they could always refinance. And these mortgage products were entirely new; never before had mortgage brokers sold mortgages that could not be serviced (paid by the holder) after a set period of time. In prior years, mortgage brokers would not give someone a mortgage if they were not able to pay it due to near-term rate adjustments. But with interest rates low and these low rates driving housing prices higher, the last few years were a total mortgage boom. And mortgage brokers weren't selling mortgages to hold, they repackage mortgages and sell them, profiting twice (initial mortgage fees and sale of mortgage). They pool lots of mortgages, then sell them off. And what wasn't disclosed to the buyers were the high risks of these debt instruments. But that's okay to the buyers, as they all bought debt insurance. If you're insured, no problem, right? However, the debt insurance market is unregulated, but that's okay because debt insurance is between sophisticated investors, right? A big financial services firm, pension fund, hedge fund, mutual fund, etc. is a smart investor. The companies that offer debt insurance are smart too. Or so you'd think. So mortgage brokers sold ticking timebomb mortgages to low-income people telling them not to worry, then packaged the mortgages and sold them to investors. These investors didn't really care about the risk as they sold the risk to bond insurance companies by buying insurance. But guess what happens when a bond insurance company has insurance obligations of $60 billion in bonds yet only $500 million in cash to cover those obligations. The bond insurance companies go belly up, because the debt insurance market is unregulated, companies have gotten into the practice of selling insurance on more bonds than actually exist, giving speculators the ability to bet that bonds will go worthless. So you could pay a small premium, for example, on a corporate, muni, or other type of bond in a bet that the entity will not be able to pay it back. You would then collect the full price of the bond should that happen. This type of speculation does not exist in the stock market, for example, because it is regulated. In the stock market, you can sell a stock short or buy an options contract, however in both those cases you have offsetting transactions. You can't short a billion shares of a company if there are only a million shares outstanding. Anyway, so now the insurance companies have gone belly up and big finance players like Citibank etc. are writing off billions of dollars of these CDOs as they are worthless. Does that limit the damage? Heck no, because all those bond insurance companies were doing what? Insuring perfectly respectable debt instruments like muni bonds, student loan bonds, etc. But now these investments don't have the protection of insurance, so what happens? The low rates that towns, cities, companies, and other entities used to get when they borrowed money have now shot up through the roof. So where a municipality could sell bonds with a 4 % interest rate, they now have to sell them with a 15% rate to off-set the risk since no one can insure them (that's what Warren Buffett is trying to do, skim the cream of the bond insurance business off the top by getting all the insurance business for these quality bonds). So now we're in a massive credit crunch, which is partly slowing our economy and driving world markets lower. -------------------------- Chuck Norris doesn't do push-ups, he pushes the Earth down. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites beowulf 1 #19 February 20, 2008 QuoteQuoteQuoteFirst, the food industry. How many million of pounds of tainted beef do we have to feed to our kids at lunch before we take this seriously? In ,y entire (short) life I have never heard as many food system horror stories than with the Bush admin in charge. The USDA has inspectors all over the place. The oversight is there - but if the inspectors are not doing their jobs properly, then what? It's not lack of oversight. It's GOVERNMENT oversight. There are thousands of vacant USDA inspector positions, and the rules have been changed so that inspectors are limited in what they can inspect and the companies can write their own food safety plans. Very often all the inspectors are allowed to inspect is company paperwork, not the actual operations. How do you know that? About 12 years ago I worked at a meat packing plant in Rochelle, IL and the USDA inspectors routinely did inspections multiple times a day. Not inspections of the paper work. I personally witnessed them making rounds through out the plant and have even seen them shut down the entire plant and bring in the wash crew. Have things changed that much? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Gawain 0 #20 February 20, 2008 QuoteFirst, the food industry. How many million of pounds of tainted beef do we have to feed to our kids at lunch before we take this seriously? In ,y entire (short) life I have never heard as many food system horror stories than with the Bush admin in charge. Huh? As I understand it, it was an investigation that revealed what was going wrong at that plant in California to begin with, so...um... QuoteSecond, we need more oversight in the financial markets. The ENTIRE mortgage mess that we are dealing with now is due ENTIRELY to the fact that the market is unregulated. This is what happens where there is no government to control and restrain human impulse and greed. Also, speculation needs to be removed from food and energy markets. Yeah, because regulations help industry...I suppose you like the idea of regulating the airline industry again. Regulatory issues are what keep your power bills stagnant (and higher in many cases), your phone bill a headache, and let us not forget the newest regulation for campaigning, McCain/Feingold. I will agree with you that there needs to be better leadership in the public and private sector to instill better stewardship and restore confidence. However, nothing speaks as powerfully as the consumer. That plant in New Jersey is out of business. The one in California will surely go under. Better companies will rise in their wake. That is how free markets work.So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright 'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life Make light! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Gawain 0 #21 February 20, 2008 QuoteQuote Entirely to market being unregulated? Huh?????? Uh, yes. In a nutshell, the mortgage industry is largely unregulated. That is not true. The Banking industry is heavily regulated.So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright 'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life Make light! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Zipp0 1 #22 February 20, 2008 QuoteQuoteQuote Entirely to market being unregulated? Huh?????? Uh, yes. In a nutshell, the mortgage industry is largely unregulated. That is not true. The Banking industry is heavily regulated. I said mortgage, not banking. Go read my whole post. I explained it as thoroughly as I care to. Mortgage companuies are acting like banks, but not regulated like banks. -------------------------- Chuck Norris doesn't do push-ups, he pushes the Earth down. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kallend 2,150 #23 February 20, 2008 QuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteFirst, the food industry. How many million of pounds of tainted beef do we have to feed to our kids at lunch before we take this seriously? In ,y entire (short) life I have never heard as many food system horror stories than with the Bush admin in charge. The USDA has inspectors all over the place. The oversight is there - but if the inspectors are not doing their jobs properly, then what? It's not lack of oversight. It's GOVERNMENT oversight. There are thousands of vacant USDA inspector positions, and the rules have been changed so that inspectors are limited in what they can inspect and the companies can write their own food safety plans. Very often all the inspectors are allowed to inspect is company paperwork, not the actual operations. How do you know that? lots of sources, including the USDA Inspector General's Reports to Congress. The high vacancy rate for FSIS inspectors is a matter of record. Here's a good read - just one of many. You can also look at FSIS budgets over the past 8 years, and changes in FSIS funding of state food inspection programs.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Zipp0 1 #24 February 20, 2008 Quote Huh? As I understand it, it was an investigation that revealed what was going wrong at that plant in California to begin with, so...um... You understand it wrong, then. The investigation was done by the humane society, not food inspectors. It was the first they did and uncovered all these issues. They were shocked at how bad things were at the very first investigative look. -------------------------- Chuck Norris doesn't do push-ups, he pushes the Earth down. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Lefty 0 #25 February 20, 2008 QuoteQuote Huh? As I understand it, it was an investigation that revealed what was going wrong at that plant in California to begin with, so...um... You understand it wrong, then. The investigation was done by the humane society, not food inspectors. It was the first they did and uncovered all these issues. They were shocked at how bad things were at the very first investigative look. So a non-government organization discovered the inadequacies of the government, in essence doing the government's job better....and you think government is the solution.Provoking a reaction isn't the same thing as saying something meaningful. -Calvin Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 3 4 5 Next Page 1 of 5 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 0 Go To Topic Listing
rehmwa 2 #9 February 20, 2008 "More/Better" I can read this 3 ways: 1 - More and Better 2 - More or Better 3 - More = Better From your post history, I'd have to read that as #3. But, for clarity, which do you mean? Because, I'd say we need "Less and Better" (in the idea that Better would enable Less and result in a net improvement of less interference, but with improved effectiveness) would be the right answer in terms of Government oversight in most things. ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #10 February 20, 2008 I believe we do need More Butter Oversight I mean, when you get popcorn at the theator and they pump out that "butter-like" flavoring, it only really coats the top inch of popcorn. Obviously - "popcorn, popcorn, popcorn, popcorn, popcorn, butter-like oil" is NOT effective we need - "popcorn, butter-like oil, popcorn, butter-like oil, popcorn, butter-like oil, popcorn, butter-like oil, popcorn, butter-like oil" would be the more correct process ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Andrewwhyte 1 #11 February 20, 2008 Quote"More/Better" I can read this 3 ways: 1 - More and Better 2 - More or Better 3 - More = Better From your post history, I'd have to read that as #3. But, for clarity, which do you mean? Because, I'd say we need "Less and Better" (in the idea that Better would enable Less and result in a net improvement of less interference, but with improved effectiveness) would be the right answer in terms of Government oversight in most things. Que? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Lefty 0 #12 February 20, 2008 QuoteQuoteI agree with Lefty. This is not a "crisis." This market is now a "return to sanity." You agree with Lefty; every economist on the planet agrees with me. Then there's the old - "When it affects you, it's a return to sanity. When it affects me, it's a crisis." I stand by my assessment. You all can run around and cry about a "crisis". I see this as an opportunity for many people to finally get the house they've been wanting. If they're dumb and get themselves locked into a loan they can't make payments on, whose fault is that? Let's run down the checklist to see: a) Government's: No b) Mine: No c) The bank's: No d) Their own: YES!Provoking a reaction isn't the same thing as saying something meaningful. -Calvin Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Lefty 0 #13 February 20, 2008 QuoteI believe we do need More Butter Oversight So now your list would read 1 - More and Better 2 - More or Better 3 - More = Better 4 - More and Butter I think we're getting closer to a solution :)Provoking a reaction isn't the same thing as saying something meaningful. -Calvin Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
leroydb 0 #14 February 20, 2008 Food industry: I can see your point, but why do we need the gov't to protect us from ourselves Mortgage: CAN''T blame anyone but those that choose to get an Adjustable mortgage... I didn't and would never get one....Leroy ..I knew I was an unwanted baby when I saw my bath toys were a toaster and a radio... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zipp0 1 #15 February 20, 2008 Quote I stand by my assessment. And I admire that. Standing up for your argument, no matter how invalid. Someone call the president - his methods are rubbing off! -------------------------- Chuck Norris doesn't do push-ups, he pushes the Earth down. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnealtx 0 #16 February 20, 2008 QuoteQuote I stand by my assessment. And I admire that. Standing up for your argument, no matter how invalid. Someone call the president - his methods are rubbing off! Your postulate: Government failed, so we need more government - THAT'S the invalid argument.Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Lefty 0 #17 February 20, 2008 QuoteQuote I stand by my assessment. And I admire that. Standing up for your argument, no matter how invalid. Someone call the president - his methods are rubbing off! Did you read my handy little list about where to assign blame for a foreclosure? It might help you.Provoking a reaction isn't the same thing as saying something meaningful. -Calvin Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zipp0 1 #18 February 20, 2008 Quote Entirely to market being unregulated? Huh?????? Uh, yes. In a nutshell, the mortgage industry is largely unregulated. So mortgage brokers were able to sell mortgages to low-income financially-unsavvy people which could be serviced with their current income, but could not as soon as the low teaser rate reset. You might say, stupid people, their fault, however, mortgage brokers told these financially unsavvy people not to worry, they could always refinance. And these mortgage products were entirely new; never before had mortgage brokers sold mortgages that could not be serviced (paid by the holder) after a set period of time. In prior years, mortgage brokers would not give someone a mortgage if they were not able to pay it due to near-term rate adjustments. But with interest rates low and these low rates driving housing prices higher, the last few years were a total mortgage boom. And mortgage brokers weren't selling mortgages to hold, they repackage mortgages and sell them, profiting twice (initial mortgage fees and sale of mortgage). They pool lots of mortgages, then sell them off. And what wasn't disclosed to the buyers were the high risks of these debt instruments. But that's okay to the buyers, as they all bought debt insurance. If you're insured, no problem, right? However, the debt insurance market is unregulated, but that's okay because debt insurance is between sophisticated investors, right? A big financial services firm, pension fund, hedge fund, mutual fund, etc. is a smart investor. The companies that offer debt insurance are smart too. Or so you'd think. So mortgage brokers sold ticking timebomb mortgages to low-income people telling them not to worry, then packaged the mortgages and sold them to investors. These investors didn't really care about the risk as they sold the risk to bond insurance companies by buying insurance. But guess what happens when a bond insurance company has insurance obligations of $60 billion in bonds yet only $500 million in cash to cover those obligations. The bond insurance companies go belly up, because the debt insurance market is unregulated, companies have gotten into the practice of selling insurance on more bonds than actually exist, giving speculators the ability to bet that bonds will go worthless. So you could pay a small premium, for example, on a corporate, muni, or other type of bond in a bet that the entity will not be able to pay it back. You would then collect the full price of the bond should that happen. This type of speculation does not exist in the stock market, for example, because it is regulated. In the stock market, you can sell a stock short or buy an options contract, however in both those cases you have offsetting transactions. You can't short a billion shares of a company if there are only a million shares outstanding. Anyway, so now the insurance companies have gone belly up and big finance players like Citibank etc. are writing off billions of dollars of these CDOs as they are worthless. Does that limit the damage? Heck no, because all those bond insurance companies were doing what? Insuring perfectly respectable debt instruments like muni bonds, student loan bonds, etc. But now these investments don't have the protection of insurance, so what happens? The low rates that towns, cities, companies, and other entities used to get when they borrowed money have now shot up through the roof. So where a municipality could sell bonds with a 4 % interest rate, they now have to sell them with a 15% rate to off-set the risk since no one can insure them (that's what Warren Buffett is trying to do, skim the cream of the bond insurance business off the top by getting all the insurance business for these quality bonds). So now we're in a massive credit crunch, which is partly slowing our economy and driving world markets lower. -------------------------- Chuck Norris doesn't do push-ups, he pushes the Earth down. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
beowulf 1 #19 February 20, 2008 QuoteQuoteQuoteFirst, the food industry. How many million of pounds of tainted beef do we have to feed to our kids at lunch before we take this seriously? In ,y entire (short) life I have never heard as many food system horror stories than with the Bush admin in charge. The USDA has inspectors all over the place. The oversight is there - but if the inspectors are not doing their jobs properly, then what? It's not lack of oversight. It's GOVERNMENT oversight. There are thousands of vacant USDA inspector positions, and the rules have been changed so that inspectors are limited in what they can inspect and the companies can write their own food safety plans. Very often all the inspectors are allowed to inspect is company paperwork, not the actual operations. How do you know that? About 12 years ago I worked at a meat packing plant in Rochelle, IL and the USDA inspectors routinely did inspections multiple times a day. Not inspections of the paper work. I personally witnessed them making rounds through out the plant and have even seen them shut down the entire plant and bring in the wash crew. Have things changed that much? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Gawain 0 #20 February 20, 2008 QuoteFirst, the food industry. How many million of pounds of tainted beef do we have to feed to our kids at lunch before we take this seriously? In ,y entire (short) life I have never heard as many food system horror stories than with the Bush admin in charge. Huh? As I understand it, it was an investigation that revealed what was going wrong at that plant in California to begin with, so...um... QuoteSecond, we need more oversight in the financial markets. The ENTIRE mortgage mess that we are dealing with now is due ENTIRELY to the fact that the market is unregulated. This is what happens where there is no government to control and restrain human impulse and greed. Also, speculation needs to be removed from food and energy markets. Yeah, because regulations help industry...I suppose you like the idea of regulating the airline industry again. Regulatory issues are what keep your power bills stagnant (and higher in many cases), your phone bill a headache, and let us not forget the newest regulation for campaigning, McCain/Feingold. I will agree with you that there needs to be better leadership in the public and private sector to instill better stewardship and restore confidence. However, nothing speaks as powerfully as the consumer. That plant in New Jersey is out of business. The one in California will surely go under. Better companies will rise in their wake. That is how free markets work.So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright 'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life Make light! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Gawain 0 #21 February 20, 2008 QuoteQuote Entirely to market being unregulated? Huh?????? Uh, yes. In a nutshell, the mortgage industry is largely unregulated. That is not true. The Banking industry is heavily regulated.So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright 'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life Make light! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Zipp0 1 #22 February 20, 2008 QuoteQuoteQuote Entirely to market being unregulated? Huh?????? Uh, yes. In a nutshell, the mortgage industry is largely unregulated. That is not true. The Banking industry is heavily regulated. I said mortgage, not banking. Go read my whole post. I explained it as thoroughly as I care to. Mortgage companuies are acting like banks, but not regulated like banks. -------------------------- Chuck Norris doesn't do push-ups, he pushes the Earth down. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kallend 2,150 #23 February 20, 2008 QuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteFirst, the food industry. How many million of pounds of tainted beef do we have to feed to our kids at lunch before we take this seriously? In ,y entire (short) life I have never heard as many food system horror stories than with the Bush admin in charge. The USDA has inspectors all over the place. The oversight is there - but if the inspectors are not doing their jobs properly, then what? It's not lack of oversight. It's GOVERNMENT oversight. There are thousands of vacant USDA inspector positions, and the rules have been changed so that inspectors are limited in what they can inspect and the companies can write their own food safety plans. Very often all the inspectors are allowed to inspect is company paperwork, not the actual operations. How do you know that? lots of sources, including the USDA Inspector General's Reports to Congress. The high vacancy rate for FSIS inspectors is a matter of record. Here's a good read - just one of many. You can also look at FSIS budgets over the past 8 years, and changes in FSIS funding of state food inspection programs.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Zipp0 1 #24 February 20, 2008 Quote Huh? As I understand it, it was an investigation that revealed what was going wrong at that plant in California to begin with, so...um... You understand it wrong, then. The investigation was done by the humane society, not food inspectors. It was the first they did and uncovered all these issues. They were shocked at how bad things were at the very first investigative look. -------------------------- Chuck Norris doesn't do push-ups, he pushes the Earth down. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Lefty 0 #25 February 20, 2008 QuoteQuote Huh? As I understand it, it was an investigation that revealed what was going wrong at that plant in California to begin with, so...um... You understand it wrong, then. The investigation was done by the humane society, not food inspectors. It was the first they did and uncovered all these issues. They were shocked at how bad things were at the very first investigative look. So a non-government organization discovered the inadequacies of the government, in essence doing the government's job better....and you think government is the solution.Provoking a reaction isn't the same thing as saying something meaningful. -Calvin Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 3 4 5 Next Page 1 of 5 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 0 Go To Topic Listing
Gawain 0 #20 February 20, 2008 QuoteFirst, the food industry. How many million of pounds of tainted beef do we have to feed to our kids at lunch before we take this seriously? In ,y entire (short) life I have never heard as many food system horror stories than with the Bush admin in charge. Huh? As I understand it, it was an investigation that revealed what was going wrong at that plant in California to begin with, so...um... QuoteSecond, we need more oversight in the financial markets. The ENTIRE mortgage mess that we are dealing with now is due ENTIRELY to the fact that the market is unregulated. This is what happens where there is no government to control and restrain human impulse and greed. Also, speculation needs to be removed from food and energy markets. Yeah, because regulations help industry...I suppose you like the idea of regulating the airline industry again. Regulatory issues are what keep your power bills stagnant (and higher in many cases), your phone bill a headache, and let us not forget the newest regulation for campaigning, McCain/Feingold. I will agree with you that there needs to be better leadership in the public and private sector to instill better stewardship and restore confidence. However, nothing speaks as powerfully as the consumer. That plant in New Jersey is out of business. The one in California will surely go under. Better companies will rise in their wake. That is how free markets work.So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright 'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life Make light! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gawain 0 #21 February 20, 2008 QuoteQuote Entirely to market being unregulated? Huh?????? Uh, yes. In a nutshell, the mortgage industry is largely unregulated. That is not true. The Banking industry is heavily regulated.So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright 'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life Make light! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zipp0 1 #22 February 20, 2008 QuoteQuoteQuote Entirely to market being unregulated? Huh?????? Uh, yes. In a nutshell, the mortgage industry is largely unregulated. That is not true. The Banking industry is heavily regulated. I said mortgage, not banking. Go read my whole post. I explained it as thoroughly as I care to. Mortgage companuies are acting like banks, but not regulated like banks. -------------------------- Chuck Norris doesn't do push-ups, he pushes the Earth down. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,150 #23 February 20, 2008 QuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteFirst, the food industry. How many million of pounds of tainted beef do we have to feed to our kids at lunch before we take this seriously? In ,y entire (short) life I have never heard as many food system horror stories than with the Bush admin in charge. The USDA has inspectors all over the place. The oversight is there - but if the inspectors are not doing their jobs properly, then what? It's not lack of oversight. It's GOVERNMENT oversight. There are thousands of vacant USDA inspector positions, and the rules have been changed so that inspectors are limited in what they can inspect and the companies can write their own food safety plans. Very often all the inspectors are allowed to inspect is company paperwork, not the actual operations. How do you know that? lots of sources, including the USDA Inspector General's Reports to Congress. The high vacancy rate for FSIS inspectors is a matter of record. Here's a good read - just one of many. You can also look at FSIS budgets over the past 8 years, and changes in FSIS funding of state food inspection programs.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Zipp0 1 #24 February 20, 2008 Quote Huh? As I understand it, it was an investigation that revealed what was going wrong at that plant in California to begin with, so...um... You understand it wrong, then. The investigation was done by the humane society, not food inspectors. It was the first they did and uncovered all these issues. They were shocked at how bad things were at the very first investigative look. -------------------------- Chuck Norris doesn't do push-ups, he pushes the Earth down. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Lefty 0 #25 February 20, 2008 QuoteQuote Huh? As I understand it, it was an investigation that revealed what was going wrong at that plant in California to begin with, so...um... You understand it wrong, then. The investigation was done by the humane society, not food inspectors. It was the first they did and uncovered all these issues. They were shocked at how bad things were at the very first investigative look. So a non-government organization discovered the inadequacies of the government, in essence doing the government's job better....and you think government is the solution.Provoking a reaction isn't the same thing as saying something meaningful. -Calvin Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 3 4 5 Next Page 1 of 5 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 0
Zipp0 1 #24 February 20, 2008 Quote Huh? As I understand it, it was an investigation that revealed what was going wrong at that plant in California to begin with, so...um... You understand it wrong, then. The investigation was done by the humane society, not food inspectors. It was the first they did and uncovered all these issues. They were shocked at how bad things were at the very first investigative look. -------------------------- Chuck Norris doesn't do push-ups, he pushes the Earth down. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Lefty 0 #25 February 20, 2008 QuoteQuote Huh? As I understand it, it was an investigation that revealed what was going wrong at that plant in California to begin with, so...um... You understand it wrong, then. The investigation was done by the humane society, not food inspectors. It was the first they did and uncovered all these issues. They were shocked at how bad things were at the very first investigative look. So a non-government organization discovered the inadequacies of the government, in essence doing the government's job better....and you think government is the solution.Provoking a reaction isn't the same thing as saying something meaningful. -Calvin Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
