castro resigns

[Andrewwhyte 1]

Well, relations can only get better. As long as GITMO is there, however, I don't think they will ever be chummy.

[Steel 0]

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WTF do we want an island that for all practical purposes stopped developing in the 50's?

What do you mean "Want an island"? He said "Can we end sanctions?" not "Can we take over?".

A few things to note from this:

Yes the Island stopped developing in the 50's. But why? Is it really that difficult to see that it was the left wing ideology that destroyed this country.

Can we end the sanctions? Hell no! Nothing has changed here. Raul Castro, Fidel's brother was put in charge 1.5 years ago and now they are just claiming that its officially permanent. Not only has nothing changed since this but you need to look a little closer and know more about the history to understand some of the reaoning.

First off both the Castro's together with Che (Ernesto Guevara) have the blood of well over 100,000 in their hands, so having Raul in charge is not much different from having Fidel. The biggest difference between the 2 is the ease of killing Raul (a known gay alcoholic, who takes many chances) verses Fidel, a man who has dodged countless assassination attempts over the past half a century {many attempted by our very own CIA).

If the death of Fidel Castro (as an acting dictator) was leaked to the Cuban populatin, it could very well trigger a general revolt by the Cuban population on the Island. Having Raul be (or appear to be) in power for 1.5 years, while Fidel is (or was believed to still be) alive, made it less likely that there woulld be a revolt, because the general population fears more what Fidel would do to deal with dissenters. This is basically just easing the transition of power avoiding any changes from how it currently (which is very bad for the Cuban population).

The sanctions aren't going anywhere because people like me who know the history and actually care about Cuba don't want them to, and as much as the lefties wish otherwise, our voices do matter.

As for taking over Cuba, historically the U.S. has tried to do that for centuries. Currently, I would venture to say that the overwelming majority of Cubans on and off the Island would prefer U.S. rule rather than either of the Castros, in power. Since everybody in my parents, grandparents & great grandparents generation was born in Cuba and I still have several relatives there, I think that my opinion on this matter is a little more based on reality, than others who just want to use this as a tool to bash the GOP.

If I could make a wish, I think I'd pass.
Can't think of anything I need
No cigarettes, no sleep, no light, no sound.
Nothing to eat, no books to read.

[lawrocket 3]

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can we end sanctions now?

Can we put all the right wing cubans back on boats???

Jeanne - why do you think the Cubans are so right-wing? Interesting that the people who actually have first-hand personal knowledge of what communism is all about (and risked their lives by the thousands to get the hell outta there) end up being right wing.

Jeanne - you fight against racist rednecks, probably because you grew up around a whole bunch of them and probably know first-hand their depravity. Much the same way as Cubans understand first-hand the depravity of Castro's Cuba.

Just something to think about...

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[lawrocket 3]

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Is it really that difficult to see that it was the left wing ideology that destroyed this country.

Indeed. There's another island country out there that is constantly menaced by a nearby superpower. And Taiwan has managed to do okay.

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[SpeedRacer 1]

What good are the sanctions doing???

Castro & the few others in power aren't hurt by them, and they can use the sanctions to blame everything on the US.

If we had free trade with Cuba there would be greater pressure to begin reforming the system. IE, more economic pressure to de-centralize the economy in order to fully take advantage of free trade opportunities. We could undermine communism from the inside that way.

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[FreeflyChile 0]

Agreed. My only point was that when it was appeared to me that people asked what we (the US) would want or need with Cuba, I think that even if there's NO economic or other kind of "tangible" benefit to the US, it would still be better to have a government so close to us that is friendlier to the US rather than less friendly.

I mean, yeah, right now there's no threat. What if China said "hey, Cuba, we'll give you craploads of money/benefits/aid to allow us to build an airbase right next to Gitmo" (and i have no idea of Cuban geography or the actual plausability of this) - wouldn't it be better for us to have a govt that would be more hesitant to take China's offer rather than less hesitant?

[ryoder 1,590]

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What good are the sanctions doing???

Castro & the few others in power aren't hurt by them, and they can use the sanctions to blame everything on the US.

If we had free trade with Cuba there would be greater pressure to begin reforming the system. IE, more economic pressure to de-centralize the economy in order to fully take advantage of free trade opportunities. We could undermine communism from the inside that way.

Absolutely! And something else I have frequently read:

Who are the biggest supporters of keeping sanctions in place that have accomplished nothing?
The Cuban ex-pats in this country.

Who are the biggest violators of the sanctions?
The Cuban ex-pats in this country who send money, etc, to their relatives back in Cuba.

"There are only three things of value: younger women, faster airplanes, and bigger crocodiles" - Arthur Jones.

[Steel 0]

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What good are the sanctions doing???

Castro & the few others in power aren't hurt by them, and they can use the sanctions to blame everything on the US.

If we had free trade with Cuba there would be greater pressure to begin reforming the system. IE, more economic pressure to de-centralize the economy in order to fully take advantage of free trade opportunities. We could undermine communism from the inside that way.

That is a valid arguement and there are a few Cubans who agree with that, but most of us don't and I will try to explain why, (atleast from my perspective) very, very briefly.

Its true that Castro and the others in power are not directly hurt by the embargo, but to think that if Castro and the others in power got more money by us lifting the embargo that they would in turn pass it on to the Cuban population rather than increase their bank accounts from just under a billion to a couple of billion, to think that would be naive.

Castro will always blame the U.S., as its an easy scae goat, not allowing the Cuban population access to the free world he could make up anything he wishes and tell them that.

The reason the embargo has not been very effective is the fault of the rest of the world. Its the Canadians and Europeans who couldn't care less about the suffering, oppressed Cuban population that just want to use Cuba for its nice beaches and pretend to not know what is going on there.

I understand that by not giving Castro any of my dollars, its not going to take him out of power, but upporting them would make me feel worse about myself.
The European arguement (wether its directly said, implied or just the overall effect) of screw the Cubans, let just get what we can from Cuba seems very similar to me as their mentality of screw Israel, lets just avoid the wrath of the Muslim countries that want to kil all the Israeliis. Perhaps that it why for the past 45+ years everytime the vote to end the Embargo has come up in the U.N., the U.S. and Israel have stood alone in defense of the Embargo against the rest of the world. (Just to be accurate, there was one former Soviet country that voted in favor of the embargo a couple of times, but I can remember which one it was)

If I could make a wish, I think I'd pass.
Can't think of anything I need
No cigarettes, no sleep, no light, no sound.
Nothing to eat, no books to read.

[Amazon 7]

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Jeanne - you fight against racist rednecks, probably because you grew up around a whole bunch of them and probably know first-hand their depravity. Much the same way as Cubans understand first-hand the depravity of Castro's Cuba.

You forget I was stationed in South Florida.. and I grew up in Florida.

We all got to see some of the Cuban right wing goon squads in action taking over the Miami-Dade Elections offices in the 2000 elections.

Used to be on any given weekend you could run across a bunch of wanna be counter -revolutionairies out shooting automatic weapons on the edge of the Everglades. Although it was probably more about making it look good for the community... rather than any actual desire to take on Fidel. My take was they were all talk and good at raising BILLIONS of dollars from the CIA and other like minded anti-communist right wingers but really short on any action and no balls

[shropshire 0]

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Is it really that difficult to see that it was the left wing ideology that destroyed this country.

Indeed. There's another island country out there that is constantly menaced by a nearby superpower. And Taiwan has managed to do okay.

Yeah, all of those commie countries like China are on their knees.

(.)Y(.)
Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome

[lawrocket 3]

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What good are the sanctions doing???

None. But, sanctions are the way things are handled internationally.

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[happythoughts 0]

Cuba owes its existence to the support of Venezuela and the prior support of the Soviet Union. Otherwise, its economy would devolve to subsistence level farming for most of the population.

The people who owned hotels/casinos in Cuba, prior to the takeover, are going to want to be compensated for their losses as part of the process of normalization of relations.

Cuba's industries are sugar, some minerals, and tourism. There are a lot of other Caribbean island nations that have an interest in not bringing Cuba into those markets.

The Bahamas and the Dominican Republic come immediately to mind.

Radisson has already met with Cuban officials regarding uncontested hotel sites. Estimates are a growth in tourists to the tune of 1 million per year.

Caterpillar had salesmen meet with Castro for "discussions" over 10 years ago.

Basically, there is huge money to be made in tourism.
The hotel chains will demand infrastructure investment.
International banking will provide that.
It will be the opening of the floodgates.

[Andrewwhyte 1]

No question, the persistence of Cuba is a huge thorn in the side of the administration. With the rise of Chavez and the new left in Latin America Cuba has gained relevance from the nadir of the collapse of the Soviet Union.
For those talking about free trade with Cuba you need to remember what the Cubans have to sell; yes they have tourism and cigars, but what they really have is SUGAR. The sugar quotas and tariffs are perhaps the singularly most stupid aspect of the US trade system. I can never figure out whether it is really implemented for the benefit of the cane farmers in Louisiana and Hawaii, or just as a blunt instrument of power over poor nations. Regardless, it takes on new relevance with the ethanol movement in the agricultural economy. Sugar is a way better source of carbohydrates to convert to fuel than corn or wood-fibre will ever be. If you try to have free trade with Cuba the mid-west Ag lobby will crucify you.

[Andrewwhyte 1]

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The people who owned hotels/casinos in Cuba, prior to the takeover, are going to want to be compensated for their losses as part of the process of normalization of relations.

Did the people who business interests in Russia in 1917 get compensated?

[SpeedRacer 1]

why would lifting the embargo be "screwing the Cubans?"


It seems to me that keeping the embargo in place is just an empty & misguided gesture to save face & continue to say "fuck you" to the Castro regime.

We should be thinking about practical goals & end-results here. And it seems to me that a move towards a more free society in Cuba would be helped along by free trade.

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[Steel 0]

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The people who owned hotels/casinos in Cuba, prior to the takeover, are going to want to be compensated for their losses as part of the process of normalization of relations.

Did the people who business interests in Russia in 1917 get compensated?

Most of them were dead before the opportunity to retrieve their stolen assests was presented. Actually if I had more time I could find you a link. But since I don't I will just tell you that as it is, Castro's regime has been sued for stolen assests and had money convisgated by international banks be used to pay the some of the victims. So yes there is a long list of people who don't want to just let their probperty be stolen from them who are still in line to get it back.

If I could make a wish, I think I'd pass.
Can't think of anything I need
No cigarettes, no sleep, no light, no sound.
Nothing to eat, no books to read.

[happythoughts 0]

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The people who owned hotels/casinos in Cuba, prior to the takeover, are going to want to be compensated for their losses as part of the process of normalization of relations.

Did the people who business interests in Russia in 1917 get compensated?

I would sincerely doubt it, but that is irrelevant to what we are discussing. We are talking about normalization of interests between Cuba and the US. The US didn't have any hotels in Russia in 1917 to discuss.

Some of the hotels in Cuba, that were seized, were owned by US interests. Before normal business relations with the US can resume, there must be a basis in law to conduct business. Cuba would have to prove that they have that structure by compensating people for seized assets.

The move by Castro was one of stupidity.

Marxism needs capitalism to create industries, but those are given to "the people". The theory is that the industry will continue to thrive as there is a market for the product.

If those industries are tourism and sugar, and that tourism can me stopped, the industrial base dies. Sugar can be found elsewhere.

[Andrewwhyte 1]

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I would sincerely doubt it, but that is irrelevant to what we are discussing. We are talking about normalization of interests between Cuba and the US. The US didn't have any hotels in Russia in 1917 to discuss.

No but British and French industrial concerns certainly has interests there. Generally when discussing international law you look internationally for precedents.

[Steel 0]

why would lifting the embargo be "screwing the Cubans?"
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Because lfting the embargo would mean recognizing the Castro regime as anything other that a group of mass-murders, who have hijacked this countyry for a half a century. It would mean giving them more money, which clearly would not be used to help the general population, but instead to keep them oppressed. The problem is not that Castro does not see capitalism as profitable. If he didn't then he wouldn't have had all the Cuban tourist resorts built by foreign investors. They understand capitalism quite well when it fills their bankaccounts. But the idea of loosing any of profits that the regime is enjoying to any of the Cuban population at large by allowing them to work for them selves is not something the Cuban government has any intention of doing. Not as it stands or with the extra US dollars that ending the embargo would bring in.

Therefore by ending the embargo you are saying to the Cuban public we give up on trying to bring democracy to your country and trying to free your people. Instead we will choose to make business deals with your slave masters (the Castros) and reap the benifits.
Does that clairify why ending the embargo is screwwing the Cuban people?
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It seems to me that keeping the embargo in place is just an empty & misguided gesture to save face & continue to say "fuck you" to the Castro regime.
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And for reasons that have already been stated, I completely disagree with this statement.
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We should be thinking about practical goals & end-results here. And it seems to me that a move towards a more free society in Cuba would be helped along by free trade.
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And again for reasons that I have stated here, I believe that free trade with the Castro regime would never become free trade with the Cuban population at large.

If I could make a wish, I think I'd pass.
Can't think of anything I need
No cigarettes, no sleep, no light, no sound.
Nothing to eat, no books to read.

[happythoughts 0]

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I would sincerely doubt it, but that is irrelevant to what we are discussing. We are talking about normalization of interests between Cuba and the US. The US didn't have any hotels in Russia in 1917 to discuss.

No but British and French industrial concerns certainly has interests there. Generally when discussing international law you look internationally for precedents.

The US seems to approach "international issues" a bit differently than the British or French.

[Andrewwhyte 1]

If the new regime cares to allow more capitalism in on an incremental basis, more and more Canadian, Mexican and European capital will find its way there regardless of the stance of the US. This is already happening albeit very slowly. The situation is very similar to Viet Nam, sooner or later US business interests will tell the government that they are tired of losing out.
The Miami Cuban community has put their eggs very firmly in the GOP basket. If there is a Dem Congress- Dem White House next year they may get a big fuck you from the gov if Cuba shows a willingness to play ball. Trust me no one at State or the CIA gives a shit about the Cuban ex pats when they are working on the Venezuela file.

[Steel 0]

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If the new regime cares to allow more capitalism in on an incremental basis, more and more Canadian, Mexican and European capital will find its way there regardless of the stance of the US. This is already happening albeit very slowly. The situation is very similar to Viet Nam, sooner or later US business interests will tell the government that they are tired of losing out.
The Miami Cuban community has put their eggs very firmly in the GOP basket. If there is a Dem Congress- Dem White House next year they may get a big fuck you from the gov if Cuba shows a willingness to play ball. Trust me no one at State or the CIA gives a shit about the Cuban ex pats when they are working on the Venezuela file.

You make a lot of interesting points and the only thing I can add to that is that I am hoping that we don't loose the Republican control of the executive branch and that we win some more of the Congress back.

However, for the rest of the people here that don't really understand the Cuban situation I will give a couple of hypothetical questions to think about.

Suppose that I get some militants together and find an Island with a really nice Climate that has a couple of hundred thousand Chinese imigrants and basically force them to work for me, paying them close to nothing more than just enough to remain alive, and kill anybody who I think might be able to overthrow me without even thinking twice about it and on occasion kill anybody trying to escape to a free country in the act.

Knowing this would you happily go an enjoy yourself at my resorts?

Now suppose with that couple of hundred thousand Chinese Imigrants, I throw in 3.5 to 4 million Spanish Imigrants, a couple of million decendents of slaves from the Congo, and a couple million Mulattos (mixture of blacks form the Congo and whites from Spain).
Now would you happily go to my resort and enjoy yourself?

If you would you have just put yourself at the level of a typical European or Canadian from a Cuban perspective. If you wouldn't then why do you see it any different to go to Castro's resorts?

If I could make a wish, I think I'd pass.
Can't think of anything I need
No cigarettes, no sleep, no light, no sound.
Nothing to eat, no books to read.

[Andrewwhyte 1]

Most people don't see a big difference between that and going to resort in DR Owned by the descendants of the Conquistadores and worked by mixed Spanish-Indios at the top and illegal black Haitians at the bottom.

[SpeedRacer 1]

hmmm, interesting perspective.

Go on the BBC's Have-Your-Say website right now & listen to all the upper middle class "trust-fund commies" in Western countries (well-developed by Capitalism) talking about how Castro is a hero & Cuba is a glorious worker's paradise!

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[Steel 0]

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Most people don't see a big difference between that and going to resort in DR Owned by the descendants of the Conquistadores and worked by mixed Spanish-Indios at the top and illegal black Haitians at the bottom.

And the ignorance that people have about the difference is sad. On the one hand in places like the Dominican Republic, the workers lives are bettered by working in the resorts, and they work there by choice, just as they remain in the DR as a whole by choice, don't have a government not allowing them to establish their own business. And on the other hand we have the Cubans, who are legally not permitted to go to any of the resorts they are forced to work in, (even if they got dollars, given to them by foreigners) to pay for it. And a goverment that has been doing anything it needs for the past half a century to make sure they have enough slaves to keep the Castros intrests going there.

If I could make a wish, I think I'd pass.
Can't think of anything I need
No cigarettes, no sleep, no light, no sound.
Nothing to eat, no books to read.