rushmc 23 #126 February 21, 2008 Quote This is getting funny. In regards to stat's you'll have to look and read again what I'd mentioned earlier. OOooooooK, I just did. I see where you would feel more safe and.......... What am I missing?"America will never be destroyed from the outside, if we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves." Abraham Lincoln Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
vortexring 0 #127 February 21, 2008 The simple facts that if you remove the elements of media dramatization and statistics trying to explain away the problem; you still have a very obvious problem!! 'for it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "chuck 'im out, the brute!" But it's "saviour of 'is country" when the guns begin to shoot.' Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rushmc 23 #128 February 21, 2008 QuoteThe simple facts that if you remove the elements of media dramatization and statistics trying to explain away the problem; you still have a very obvious problem!! OK, thanks. Next, is that problem guns?"America will never be destroyed from the outside, if we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves." Abraham Lincoln Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
vortexring 0 #129 February 21, 2008 QuoteQuoteAs with more weapons there are also more people so your explanation doesn't make sense. It's possible the root cause is either people with their unavoidable and fundamental flaws, or the weapon proliferation itself. So both areas should be addressed. Allowing CCW on campus isn't really the issue here. What it seems like you're missing is that criminals will always be able to get weapons, because they're criminals and obtain things on the black market, just like they do drugs. The "war on drugs" has been a colossal failure, and a "war on guns" won't be any different. Outlawing them will simply create an environment where only criminals will have weapons. Since we can't disarm criminals, we need to address the reasons the crime is happening, and permit people to protect themselves, because when you need help in seconds, the police are minutes away. What you're missing is that I'm perfectly aware of the fact criminals will obtain weapons. Why are the vast majority of people in the UK happy to go about their day to day lives unarmed? Even if they could arm themselves, the vast, vast majority would chose not to arm themselves. Where we're different is that we weren't brought up in a gun culture. Guns are therefore less available. We don't therefore suffer the destructive weapon proliferation that Americans suffer. We therefore have less gun crime. So essentially, wouldn't it be better for the people of America to address these cultural issues instead of going on and on about the right to protect oneself? If in your opinion the war on drugs is being lost; does that then justify to no longer fight any more wars? Eventually - I'm sure it'll take a few generations - you'll end up with some rather draconian gun laws. 'for it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "chuck 'im out, the brute!" But it's "saviour of 'is country" when the guns begin to shoot.' Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
vortexring 0 #130 February 21, 2008 QuoteQuoteThe simple facts that if you remove the elements of media dramatization and statistics trying to explain away the problem; you still have a very obvious problem!! OK, thanks. Next, is that problem guns? What, like an SA80A1? 'for it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "chuck 'im out, the brute!" But it's "saviour of 'is country" when the guns begin to shoot.' Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rushmc 23 #131 February 21, 2008 QuoteQuoteQuoteThe simple facts that if you remove the elements of media dramatization and statistics trying to explain away the problem; you still have a very obvious problem!! OK, thanks. Next, is that problem guns? What, like an SA80A1? ?? ok, maybe we are even here. Let me rephrase. What makes you think GUNS are the problem? (I have read your other posts and this is an assumption on my part that could be wrong)"America will never be destroyed from the outside, if we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves." Abraham Lincoln Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
vortexring 0 #132 February 22, 2008 'for it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "chuck 'im out, the brute!" But it's "saviour of 'is country" when the guns begin to shoot.' Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
georgerussia 0 #133 February 22, 2008 Quote Why are the vast majority of people in the UK happy to go about their day to day lives unarmed? I suspect it depends on what group of people you're talking about - city or country. Quote Where we're different is that we weren't brought up in a gun culture. Guns are therefore less available. We don't therefore suffer the destructive weapon proliferation that Americans suffer. We therefore have less gun crime. Less _gun_ crime itself doesn't matter. It doesn't really matter for the murder victim whether the killer used a gun or a hammer. So do you have less crime, or just less gun crime?* Don't pray for me if you wanna help - just send me a check. * Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rushmc 23 #134 February 22, 2008 Quote "America will never be destroyed from the outside, if we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves." Abraham Lincoln Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnealtx 0 #135 February 22, 2008 QuoteQuoteQuoteYes it might. But will it stop or even deter psycho students with a desire to kill their student mates? Deter? no. Stop them? It does have that potential would you not agree? As it equally has the potential to cause further shootings. All the statistics I have found in regard to CCW holders disagree with your statement. If you have any statistics in regard to CCW holders to prove your point, I'd like to see them.Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkyDekker 1,465 #136 February 22, 2008 QuoteWhat it seems like you're missing is that criminals will always be able to get weapons, because they're criminals and obtain things on the black market, just like they do drugs. The "war on drugs" has been a colossal failure, and a "war on guns" won't be any different. Outlawing them will simply create an environment where only criminals will have weapons. Since we can't disarm criminals, we need to address the reasons the crime is happening, and permit people to protect themselves, because when you need help in seconds, the police are minutes away. You are absolutely right in your statement. Criminals will always be able to get guns. Just as long as people accept that an armed populace also increases your odds of getting killed. There is a trade off for everything in life. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,150 #137 February 22, 2008 QuoteQuoteAs with more weapons there are also more people so your explanation doesn't make sense.In the context of my post it does make sense. You need to remember that the stats presented are usually based on incidents per 1000. Only in that way can different times and numbers of people can be compared. So, my post does make sense. It's possible the root cause is either people with their unavoidable and fundamental flaws, or the weapon proliferation itself.No. If that was true then stats would indicate that to be the case. The numbes do not. So both areas should be addressed. Allowing CCW on campus isn't really the issue here. It is fact that those who choose to legaly carry are the most law abiding in the country. And that looks at all laws including trafic. So, to me anyway, I would feel safer with a legal carrier walking beside me than one not licensed to carry No, that is a complete misinterpretation of the data. Those who are approved to carry legally in states with an effective approval process are among the most law abiding in the USA. THAT is the correct interpretation.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,150 #138 February 22, 2008 Quote Quote Quote Quote Quote There is a flaw in your reasoning. You are not accounting for the 300,000+ guns that careless "law abiding gun owners" funnel into the hands of muggers and other criminals each year in the USA, and the straw purchases and other illicit transactions due to the emasculated rules in the USA. Guns on campuses - do you REALLY think that none will be stolen, or "borrowed" by roomies? I've seen that 300,000 number from you before, and I can't figure out where you're getting it. Nobody can. Maybe if it is said enough times it will become truth Mirror mirror on Marc's wall... Sly insults right off the bat. Kind of early today huh Prof?? Marc. you participated (posted) 22 times in the thread where I provided the link. If your memory is so poor that you don't remember, it's not my fault. Don't accuse me of making stuff up just because you can't remember.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,150 #139 February 22, 2008 QuoteQuoteWhat it seems like you're missing is that criminals will always be able to get weapons, because they're criminals and obtain things on the black market, just like they do drugs. The "war on drugs" has been a colossal failure, and a "war on guns" won't be any different. Outlawing them will simply create an environment where only criminals will have weapons. Since we can't disarm criminals, we need to address the reasons the crime is happening, and permit people to protect themselves, because when you need help in seconds, the police are minutes away. You are absolutely right in your statement. Criminals will always be able to get guns. . And the more guns that "law abiding citizens" funnel into the criminal fraternity by their carelessness or venality, the more easily criminals and loonies will be able to get guns.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rushmc 23 #140 February 22, 2008 Quote Quote Quote As with more weapons there are also more people so your explanation doesn't make sense.In the context of my post it does make sense. You need to remember that the stats presented are usually based on incidents per 1000. Only in that way can different times and numbers of people can be compared. So, my post does make sense. It's possible the root cause is either people with their unavoidable and fundamental flaws, or the weapon proliferation itself.No. If that was true then stats would indicate that to be the case. The numbes do not. So both areas should be addressed. Allowing CCW on campus isn't really the issue here. It is fact that those who choose to legaly carry are the most law abiding in the country. And that looks at all laws including trafic. So, to me anyway, I would feel safer with a legal carrier walking beside me than one not licensed to carry No, that is a complete misinterpretation of the data. Those who are approved to carry legally in states with an effective approval process are among the most law abiding in the USA. THAT is the correct interpretation. No, that is YOUR interpretation"America will never be destroyed from the outside, if we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves." Abraham Lincoln Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rushmc 23 #141 February 22, 2008 Quote Quote Quote Quote Quote Quote There is a flaw in your reasoning. You are not accounting for the 300,000+ guns that careless "law abiding gun owners" funnel into the hands of muggers and other criminals each year in the USA, and the straw purchases and other illicit transactions due to the emasculated rules in the USA. Guns on campuses - do you REALLY think that none will be stolen, or "borrowed" by roomies? I've seen that 300,000 number from you before, and I can't figure out where you're getting it. Nobody can. Maybe if it is said enough times it will become truth Mirror mirror on Marc's wall... Sly insults right off the bat. Kind of early today huh Prof?? Marc. you participated (posted) 22 times in the thread where I provided the link. If your memory is so poor that you don't remember, it's not my fault. Don't accuse me of making stuff up just because you can't remember. As long as YOU have a self satisfying reason to insult you should be happy sir . Oh, and I do remember, I just dont agree with your interpretation of the infoI await your next insutl"America will never be destroyed from the outside, if we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves." Abraham Lincoln Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,150 #142 February 22, 2008 Quote Quote Quote Quote As with more weapons there are also more people so your explanation doesn't make sense.In the context of my post it does make sense. You need to remember that the stats presented are usually based on incidents per 1000. Only in that way can different times and numbers of people can be compared. So, my post does make sense. It's possible the root cause is either people with their unavoidable and fundamental flaws, or the weapon proliferation itself.No. If that was true then stats would indicate that to be the case. The numbes do not. So both areas should be addressed. Allowing CCW on campus isn't really the issue here. It is fact that those who choose to legaly carry are the most law abiding in the country. And that looks at all laws including trafic. So, to me anyway, I would feel safer with a legal carrier walking beside me than one not licensed to carry No, that is a complete misinterpretation of the data. Those who are approved to carry legally in states with an effective approval process are among the most law abiding in the USA. THAT is the correct interpretation. No, that is YOUR interpretation Well, we are still waiting for you to post the data on applicants. I asked very nicely last week, but you just dodged and squirmed instead of answering. Mnealtx has posted data on approved CCW carriers in TX - no one with a memory is disputing that. But being approved in TX is NOT the same as choosing anywhere. So put up or shut up.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,150 #143 February 22, 2008 Quote Quote Quote Quote Quote Quote Quote There is a flaw in your reasoning. You are not accounting for the 300,000+ guns that careless "law abiding gun owners" funnel into the hands of muggers and other criminals each year in the USA, and the straw purchases and other illicit transactions due to the emasculated rules in the USA. Guns on campuses - do you REALLY think that none will be stolen, or "borrowed" by roomies? I've seen that 300,000 number from you before, and I can't figure out where you're getting it. Nobody can. Maybe if it is said enough times it will become truth Mirror mirror on Marc's wall... Sly insults right off the bat. Kind of early today huh Prof?? Marc. you participated (posted) 22 times in the thread where I provided the link. If your memory is so poor that you don't remember, it's not my fault. Don't accuse me of making stuff up just because you can't remember. As long as YOU have a self satisfying reason to insult you should be happy sir . Oh, and I do remember, I just dont agree with your interpretation of the infoI await your next insutl What a competely INANE response. When the US Dept. of Justice reports the number for guns stolen in the USA, what is there to interpret about it? And you should take Muenkel's recommendations to help you improve your writing.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rushmc 23 #144 February 22, 2008 Quote Quote Quote Quote Quote As with more weapons there are also more people so your explanation doesn't make sense.In the context of my post it does make sense. You need to remember that the stats presented are usually based on incidents per 1000. Only in that way can different times and numbers of people can be compared. So, my post does make sense. It's possible the root cause is either people with their unavoidable and fundamental flaws, or the weapon proliferation itself.No. If that was true then stats would indicate that to be the case. The numbes do not. So both areas should be addressed. Allowing CCW on campus isn't really the issue here. It is fact that those who choose to legaly carry are the most law abiding in the country. And that looks at all laws including trafic. So, to me anyway, I would feel safer with a legal carrier walking beside me than one not licensed to carry No, that is a complete misinterpretation of the data. Those who are approved to carry legally in states with an effective approval process are among the most law abiding in the USA. THAT is the correct interpretation. No, that is YOUR interpretation Well, we are still waiting for you to post the data on applicants. I asked very nicely last week, but you just dodged and squirmed instead of answering. Mnealtx has posted data on approved CCW carriers in TX - no one with a memory is disputing that. But being approved in TX is NOT the same as choosing anywhere. So put up or shut up. I agreed that "applicants" was the wrong word yet you dwell. Why? And it is not just TX where approved "" are proven more law abiding. That is a national stat for whick I will see if I can find yet again. So you SHUT UP, or was that just your temper showing?"America will never be destroyed from the outside, if we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves." Abraham Lincoln Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rushmc 23 #145 February 22, 2008 Yet another shot or insult. You are a friendly one now arent youI await your next insult yet againJust cant help yourself can you "America will never be destroyed from the outside, if we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves." Abraham Lincoln Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rushmc 23 #146 February 22, 2008 One of MANY to come. I have not yet found the largest research I read on this but I will find it but, just for a start I came across this one after searching for about, oh 10 secs. http://www.ncpa.org/sub/dpd/index.php?Article_ID=8106"America will never be destroyed from the outside, if we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves." Abraham Lincoln Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rushmc 23 #147 February 22, 2008 Well reasoned and not TX http://www.lesjones.com/posts/004329.shtml"America will never be destroyed from the outside, if we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves." Abraham Lincoln Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rushmc 23 #148 February 22, 2008 Ooooo, how about something a little of topic but really close to YOUR homehttp://hematite.com/dragon/usatodayccw.html "America will never be destroyed from the outside, if we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves." Abraham Lincoln Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rushmc 23 #149 February 22, 2008 More for your funhttp://www.gunsandcrime.org/florccw.html "America will never be destroyed from the outside, if we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves." Abraham Lincoln Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rushmc 23 #150 February 22, 2008 http://utahshootingsports.com/usscstudy.htm"America will never be destroyed from the outside, if we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves." Abraham Lincoln Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
